Kuno's Guide to Making an Expansion

[Stolin]

Also judging from the bannings and the multitude of HNM changes the last few years I think Fafnir and the other kings are on their mind more then you think.

From what I understand the people that are in charge of the bannings are the "Special Task Force." If they are the same people that develop the game I wouldn't know, but I don't think they are.

[Celebrindor]

not to convert this discussion, but a slight detour I wouldn't mind for my post and a few replies:

Why are kings so popular and Salvage isn't? Easy answer, and one actually paralleled in real life: the same reason more people play the lottery versus putting money in the savings account. Its a lot more appealing on paper to camp a mob and get a drop and essentially "be done" and boom! You have your Dalmatica. Its a LOT more daunting to think "ok, I have to get lucky on getting 3 independent drops and then be high enough in my shell to be allowed to lot said drops, and finally spend approximately 3 times as much gil to even use the final version of a Morrigan's Robe". No matter if its better, just like winning the lottery for 2 million dollars seems like a "quick fix" versus saving money over the course of your life and ending up with 3 million in retirement.

We want the quick fix, we want the immediate reward. And honestly maybe that's part of my own problems in avoiding salvage and hoping to find a home that does Kings- I want the immediate reward just as much as anyone. Maybe another part of the issue is that "growing up" in the game on your first job you look ahead to what awaits you at 75 without any real knowledge yet of what is required to get such a thing, and I saw the Dalmatica and have always though "man, if I had that, my RDM would be complete" (of course it wouldn't, but in a way its like a childish thought that is hard to give up in adulthood even when you know better).

So people complain for the fixing of Kings....because we want that immediate reward, or what we perceive as immediate. Fighting monsters we've known how to beat for years for drops we're accustomed to being the best for years. This is the "easy" option, no matter how much we complain about claiming/etc.

And finally- what constitutes a challenging mob that isn't on par with AV? Is it strategy required? Dangerous moves? Surrounded by aggroing monsters for links/etc? I'm curious- to you what would constitute high end challenges that don't go too far beyond the realm of possible? Again this last part is more of a question as I simply don't have the major endgame experience yet to comment.

[Krandor]

I also think the game could use to be beefed up a little. With merits, food, and new gear, stuff seems too soft, especially in an environment where Genbu can drop something as useful as Cerebus. I think SE should give some older HNMs new traits or abilities and raise their stats. I mean raising their evasion and magic resistance just enough to make merits a requirement seems like a good idea.

Recycling old content because you refuse to offer real progression is not something that can really be viewed as a recipe for success.

Frustration of investing quite some time to top your gear and it being rendered vastly inferior neither.

Enjoy camping Fafnir for the next 4 years!

Are you seriously telling me that when SE added say, Homam gear to the game, all the PLD/DRK/etcs out there broke down in tears and cursed SE for adding something better then what they already owned?

I didn't know that Homam rendered Valor body or Adaberk obsolete, and when I did that comment I was thinking mostly about bodies, as they use to be the harder pieces to get.

Basically, I believe that the fun from a MMORPG is provided from the diversity of activities. So I wouldn't want to spend a year after the expansion release by just repeating x activity over and over to get v 2.0 of certain item, as people have done with Fafnir for years, which in addition to repetitive, is an awfuly implemented system. I don't think that anyone enjoys the actual camping. However, repeating an activity, even if it's new, makes it boring pretty quick.

In my opinion, the best way to add progress would be adding different ways to get the same or similar items, so you can end getting the same valuable rewards without repeating daily the same activity (which by today's standards would be Fafnir, but adding a better equipment to a new activity could make it equally tedious). Perhaps, in the case of the addition of higher end substitutes, make an easier way for players with the previous gear versions to upgrade.

In addition, developers can always create situational equipment, thing that SE has done quite a bit. However, given the limited item storage and macro lines, it wouldn't smoothly suit ffxi without those issues being resolved first.

Besides, you can't really compare the approach taken by WoW to FFXI's gear-wise. As far as I know, the former progressively increases the max level of the player, intending to leave older content easier, while the other intends to always keep certain level of challenge in it.

The expansion (talking about WoW here) that upped the level was only released a few months ago, prior to that, you would do xxxx dungeon and acquire gear from there, when you were suitably geared at that level of content, you would move onto the next tier, and so forth. I really don't see how anyone can complain about having progressive content in a game, which for a long time has been the largest complaint in this game. Yes killing Fafnir or other HNMs might make killing say, Tiamat, easier, but really, any of that content can be cleared by fresh 75s as long as they have a proper understanding of their job and the mechanics of the fight. All things considered, gear in this game and the effective difficulty of fights has been at a deadlock for awhile now. SE is finally getting the picture with things like Assault, Salvage, etc., but their refusal to really offer truly superior gear to stuff already out there, or more specifically, fights that are challenging enough to warrant such gear, has been their biggest error in the design of this game and the expansions.

Also judging from the bannings and the multitude of HNM changes the last few years I think Fafnir and the other kings are on their mind more then you think.

From what I understand the people that are in charge of the bannings are the "Special Task Force." If they are the same people that develop the game I wouldn't know, but I don't think they are.

Separate entities.

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

Also judging from the bannings and the multitude of HNM changes the last few years I think Fafnir and the other kings are on their mind more then you think.

From what I understand the people that are in charge of the bannings are the "Special Task Force." If they are the same people that develop the game I wouldn't know, but I don't think they are.

Separate entities.

I think they're in adjacent offices though, so its not like there's no communication. Plus there have been many anti-monopolizing anti-botting content updates so there is DEFINITELY some sort of connection.

[Krandor]

Also judging from the bannings and the multitude of HNM changes the last few years I think Fafnir and the other kings are on their mind more then you think.

From what I understand the people that are in charge of the bannings are the "Special Task Force." If they are the same people that develop the game I wouldn't know, but I don't think they are.

Separate entities.

I think they're in adjacent offices though, so its not like there's no communication. Plus there have been many anti-monopolizing anti-botting content updates so there is DEFINITELY some sort of connection.

Same building yes, but they're not the same department or anything like that, should have phrased my previous post better or something.

[Priran]

What they should do is go ahead and release AF3, and actually focus on stats that improve the function of the jobs they're for.

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/6...2527518gu0.gif

AGI FOR MAGES
VIT FOR MELEES


ENJOY MOTHERFUCKER

[Zarath]

What they should do is go ahead and release AF3, and actually focus on stats that improve the function of the jobs they're for.

AGI FOR MAGES
VIT FOR MELEES

ENJOY MOTHERFUCKER

What's worse is I can see SE implementing like that....

[Dark Vincent]

Ok Wall 'O Text" below. Feel free to discuss or throw in some ideas or counterpoints. =)

I'm not a professional game designer but after playing the last two expansions from release to end (and I guess the end of RoTZ too) I have pondered over what makes an expansion good. RoTZ and ToAU are deemed to be superior while CoP doesn't get much love from the players. There are many important factors in what truly makes a good expansion aside from the gear rewards and I hope to cover them. This guide is split into different parts that I believe are important for the success of an expansion.

Introductory Phase – Gear and Access

Congratulations! You have completed the expansion to a point and decided to release it. While many parts of the expansion are missing one can assume a large part of the maps and other necessary files are released. Great! What does this mean to a player though?

At the start of an expansion there are a few things that are required by players in order to get off to a good start, and that is new equipment. While many did not like CoP looking back, it brought forth many unique pieces of equipment which were released at it’s release, such as sushi, the BLM Igqira gear, Herald Gaiters, the BRD Sha’ir gear and the DRG/WAR baron gear. ToAU decided to follow a similar suit and released many useful pieces of equipment right from the start, such as the Walahra Turban. Many other useful pieces of equipment were the Lamia Kaman, Macuahuitl, Algol, as well as the many useful assault rewards. Looking at these past two expansions it is fairly safe to say that gear release from the start of the expansion can help set in place the tone of future updates.

Access regards how easy it is for players to reach new areas in an expansion. CoP was regarded as terrible in this area, as the Tavnasian Archipelago was quite difficult to reach and required numerous adjustments to zone and boss difficulty before a large influx of players were able to access it. Aside from that, many of the other zones were accessible right from the release of the expansion such as Uleguerand Range, Bibiki Bay, and the Movalpolos region.

ToAU decided to make the access easier and on a scaling basis. You can pay a large sum of gil, or do various other tasks such as bring in a coffer key or testimony, or the subjob items for the lower level players. This was well thought out and the only down side is that players that did not complete this were unable to access any part of the expansion. Due to the requirement difficulties that last part was mostly irrelevant as a large amount of players flooded into Whitegate and Al Zahbi as their new homes.

What does this mean for the future? The answer is obvious, produce areas that are fairly easy for people to access and you will have people be happy. While the reward of beating difficult fights to reach new areas is exciting, what really happens is people become frustrated as they are unable to reach areas. You cannot have the entire expansion available to every player, however. Such mission reward zones such as Al Taieu and salvage are still required to make people feel the missions were both rewarding in story and rewarding for high level players to get something new out of.

Agreed completely here. I would also add in that Assault was an awesome system, specially for casual players. It's simple, it's straight-forward, and it's versatile/interesting enough to attract other more hardcore audiences. Another thing that CoP didnt have and could be considered as "access" was "New Jobs". While it may sound kinda irrelevant and unnecessary, it's a way to get people interested on the new expansion's content, even possibly new players (I know of people whose first job to level was Blue Mage, attracted by what the expansion offered). I mention new jobs because, unfortunately, FFXI lacks in the customization department, different jobs are FFXI's way to give the characters a "change of pace".

The Road Your Expansion Will Travel – HNM, Exp Camps and Other Challenges

The last two expansions brought interesting changes to players, and those were new HNMs released right at the introduction of the expansion. CoP saw new wyrms, Tiamat, Jormungand, and Vrtra. ToAU showed us Cerberus. And of course, as time went on we began to see how influential these monsters were in regards to how players perceived them, in regards to difficulty and rewards.

CoP brought new changes to many fans of HNMs. The Wyrms were difficult and required brand new strategies while using old ones as well (the Spike Flail model). However a few mistakes were made in regards to the comparison of difficulty and rewards. One problem was that these monsters were quite difficult and their rewards were regarded as subpar. Looking at the ones released from the expansion it can be disheartening right from the expansion and set a negative tone that will carry through until the end.

Tiamat will be the first one we look at as she is camped quite commonly to this day. One problem with this monster is the fact that she has one meaningful drop that is both rare and accompanied by nothing else. Of course she has other drops, but they do not serve a purpose. Until this point HNM were regarded as something that can benefit many people. Fafnir and Sky HNM dropped equipment that benefited many people. Genbu could drop A. Hands for BLMs, while also dropping W.Feet for melee and M.Hands for PLD. If your item did not drop there were other alternatives. In addition to the Fafnir + Sky model, it was not until CoP were HNM did not have a guaranteed drop.

Fafnir, Nidhogg and other RotZ HNM all had a guaranteed Abjuration drop, as well as either a pop item, black belt quest item, and various money items. Looking at this point you can see why many would regard CoP in a lower standard to past monsters. Tiamat dropped a very nice pair of boots that was coveted by many and that was it. Jormungand dropped ores to produce a WAR/DRG body that was not exceedingly useful and a very weak pole. Neither of these two items were desirable and they were placed on an exceedingly difficult monster at the time. Vrtra suffered similar problems. While the Sha’ir body is very useful, CoP made the mistake of allowing cashmere threads to be obtained in desynthesis. This singlehandedly killed the desire for people to kill vrtra, and it’s only saving grace was the fact that it dropped the materials 100%.

As CoP went on players began to see a very similar model in regards to HNM. Sea NM was a horror that many did not want to deal with. Many mobs were buggy, such as Prudence and Love. The torques were exceedingly useful, however the weapons were usually not. In addition to those problems the pop items were not guaranteed either. Oh, the dismay if you were able to farm 12 M chips, finally get the pop item from the NM, only to have Justice not drop his virtue. Requiring people to start over from scratch because they were unlucky is the pinnacle of disappointment, when popped monsters were usually regarded as the best to fight due to the ease and control players have in doing them when desired.

ToAU brought some changes to the table while keeping the old model. Cerberus was a great start, and was released at the introduction of the expansion. While its claws were useless at first, it still had a solid loot pool, a useful great sword with many synthesis items that had some demand. As time went on we began to see the a revert to CoP in regards to HNM. Hydra did not drop anything desirable and is a fairly difficult monster to defeat. Khimaira was seen as more useful monster to camp as its sword and club were greatly desired. However ToAU brought more disappointment as the synthesis items dropped by it were entirely useless, and the drop rate on the weapons were abysmal.

So what does all of this mean? Will all HNMs be required to drop massive loot pools to make everyone happy? This is not an easy answer, however I believe the balance has been lost. RotZ addressed this in the best manner. The alliance is made of up many people, spending a large amount of time killing a monster and even more time camping it for the chance of one person to get a mediocre piece of gear is disappointing, more so when said gear does not drop. RotZ answered this problem by having guaranteed drops of various types to make many people happy.

In addition to loot pools, one grave concern must be address before I can continue. This is fairly important and that is camping HNMs. While camping monsters is seen as an important part of gameplay this introduces a large variety of new problems. As much as people will not admit it, many players use third party tools to obtain an advantage over players, and these players are quite common. Aside from illegal tools, camping monsters is very monotonous has become more lengthy as expansions are released. Camping monsters all day is not viewed as fun by anyone, ever. It is very boring and the feeling players get after spending an exceedingly large amount of time camping to either not get claim or not get drop is a grave disappointment. While the best drops should not be so easy to get, the past few expansions has shown that people are not content with the system, as seen by the alliances of people still at Tiamat, Cerberus and Khimiara, all of whom have pop windows of over earth day.

I totally agree with this. I understand their idea of having a legendary terrifying monster roaming the fields or dungeons and killing innocent lost travelers that are unfortunate enough to step in their lair or dare to challenge their might and reclaim their treasure, but while FFXI in many aspects has succeeded in bringing in the offline gaming mindset to its MMO playerbase, this one doesn't work. There are many reasons for this, including the endgame culture and many other subtle aspects, but I'll leave it simple by making a comparison between the idea SE seems to have with the HNMs using their previous FFs as a model and how it works in FFXI.

Tiamat, Cerberus, Fafnir and the others seem to be for FFXI (in their, SE's, eyes) like Emerald, Ruby and Ultimate Weapon are for Final Fantasy VII. To fight them is optional, they roam around certain areas scaring the player until his team is strong enough to challenge them, and they do give nice rewards (well, Ruby Weapon doesn't). The thing is, in Final Fantasy VII I'm the only one playing, I have total control over "when that 'mega boss' will stop being scary and will be defeated by my team". In Final Fantasy XI you have to factor in there are several teams of players, some would be scared and avoid the mega boss, but some are competing among each other over that mega boss. I understand the idea of making the monster "resurrect" after a certain amount of time would possibly cover that, but it doesn't. Not only because of the amount of teams that want and can defeat the monster, but also that every player is a potential "consumer" for those rewards, thanks to the job system that allows everyone to be everything in the same character and the lack of customization that makes the players need to level other jobs in order to find some versatility in their characters. Combine all this with the low drop rates on the most desired items and you have the same people that killed Fafnir for the first time 3 years ago still doing it in a daily basis up to this day. The demand increases all the time. I may be a bit wrong in my logic, but from what I gathered reading some of the previous interviews, I think I'm on the right track. Suggestion? What everyone has been requesting for the past years: The tried-and-tested instanced battle system (such as BCNMs, KSNMs, Mission bosses, ISNMs...).

While EXP camps are not as an exciting subject as HNMs, it is a fairly important one too. CoP had an interesting take on EXP camps, most importantly the ones used by level 75 players to gain merits. CoP released a few useful camps at its release, such as Bibiki Bay, Uleguerand Range and Lufaise. As time went on, new camps were released such as Al Taieu for BLMs and viable standard party setup for the mid sixties. Time progressed further and introduced Hu’Xzoi and Ru’Hmet as other viable EXP areas. ToAU had a different approach, and introduced almost all EXP camps from the start of the expansion. There were a variety of camps however there are some problems with both of these expansions.

One important aspect of EXP camps is to make sure you cater to each type of EXP party. Before ToAU came out, there were many different places to party. If you had many MNKs, King Ranperre’s Tomb was a viable option. There were many BLM friendly places to EXP also. When ToAU came out it introduced Sanction. With this, many old camps were regarded as obsolete and so many flocked into the new areas. However with this showed the problems that can exist with EXP camps.

One important thing about EXP camps is to allow different types of jobs to become useful. Having camps with piercing weak monsters, different camps with blunt weak monsters, some neutral and others that are more BLM friendly are viewed as the most ideal. ToAU introduced a large variety of EXP camps, such as Trolls, Colibri, Mamools and Imps. Many new piercing weak monsters were introduced to cater to Rangers, Dragoons and Thieves with neutral monsters for other damage dealers.

One problem though is the lack of blunt weak monsters to merit on. Another problem was the lack of BLM friendly EXP camps. Since many regular parties do not invite BLMs to EXP, many band together or solo monsters for merits. However ToAU was very disappointing in this regard, releasing only one viable camp for chains (Flans), that only fits one real party. Wamoura are also an option but not as viable. In comparison to the plethora of other EXP camps, ToAU was not friendly to blunt and BLM damage.

It can be seen that an important part of making an expansion is allowing many different types of damage dealers to obtain merits while not excluding certain ones. If another type of Sanction bonus will be released, it is important to make everyone happy as opposed to telling them to go to old areas. After all, you want people to go to the new areas and making it appealing for everyone is quite beneficial.

While I see where you are getting at, I dont think lack of blunt weak monsters to merit on was a problem, considering the only blunt weapon users that actually melee'd were Monks and then Puppetmasters. Monks' have a very nice damage as it is, specially considering the low HP ToAU mobs have. However the lack of BLM-friendly EXP camps was, in fact, an aggravating problem, specially for the reasons you have stated above, like sanction and monsters' low hp that make ToAU areas have an advantage over others on the exp/hour ratio. While that reduced the time invested on grinding from 1-75 for some jobs, for others it created another problem. I would also address this as a problem that hits the Paladin job as well. With mobs dying faster, the need of a 'tank'-type job that didn't add significant damage to the party was nearly nullified past a certain point in the game (specially over level 70). While the exp/hr ratio raised with the introduction of Aht Urhgan areas, it narrowed the possibilities for versatile party setups in order to reach what is now accepted as "good exp/hr ratio" when you compare it to said setups prior those areas were released.

Other Challenges brought forth by an expansion are things like Limbus, Dynamis, Salvage and other zones in which players can choose when to enter and gain rewards. These types of zones are useful as they do not involve other players and can be done at their own pace. However unlike past instances, RoTZ has not done as well as it’s successors. The problems facing dynamis are the inability to instance a zone, creating problems with people intentionally locking others out and scheduling difficulties, as well as it’s low drop rate and relic weapon system. In creating relic weapons as difficult to get and at a specific strength, FFXI shot itself in the foot in its inability to ever create a stronger weapon without upsetting the people who invested time in obtaining a relic weapon.

In addition, the randomness of drops in dynamis can be very disappointing. Later addressed in Limbus and Salvage, it is possible to obtain certain pieces of gear by fighting the same boss over and over, or as seen in salvage, killing the NM who will drop the desired piece of equipment until you obtain it. While neither of these systems are entirely perfect there has been a massive improvement. One problem seen however is rarity in salvage in regards to reward. While in dynamis and limbus you can obtain currency to use or to sell for money, salvage lacks such reward and that is vital in the same sense as adding various loot to HNMs, more people will benefit from it. While it may take a while to get a piece of Homam you want, or a certain AF, you at least can obtain some of the various other rewards in the meantime.

Salvage is a step back in a sense that you must dedicate a run to certain goals that may not be achieved due to luck or other factors, and produces an end result where nothing is achieved. While the system is technically better in salvage, it fails in the aspect of catering to the many people who will participate with short term rewards who can help everyone.

Nothing to add here. Except that on the relic weapon instance, if they don't want to limit themselves by having them as the "power cap" of a weapon's strenght, they could develop a quest or something that involved reinforcing the relics, making them stronger than they are on their last stage, and thus creating a pseudo-6th stage that would work to set in a new level of power cap. That's just a suggestion, of course.

Clash Between the Old and the New – Necessity and Obsoletion

At the end of an expansion one must look back and see what new things were brought. While you do not want to completely obsolete its predecessors, there must be a point where this is needed. Old content must still be required to an extent, however many regard the success of an expansion as its ability to provide new gear and events to replace the old.

So what does this mean? Simply put, the older players in the game feel that some of the older content should become obsolete. Requiring people to go back to what they have been doing the past few years is the opposite of what an expansion aims to do. It seems as if thought you will be required to obsolete gear. You will have many complaining about the lost effort it took to obtain the gear but that is how online games work. I am not saying that a relic weapon should be replaced by a simple AHable weapon, but that there should be improvements somehow. In addition to that, other gear such as Abjurations are beginning to see some alternatives. However the problem still lies in RotZ HNMs, most notably Fafnir and King Behemoth. By creating such useful items that have such a low drop rate and without any comparable alternatives, you create a problem. As time goes on more people will want the item creating the situation seen now, people caring more about 3 year old content by camping Fafnir and Behemoth every day then doing something more productive. There is no reason to not making something better other then worrying about imbalance regarding Ridill and Defending Ring (presumably when used in combination with a stronger version). New and better is almost required to obsolete some of the old gear, and when you don’t you create a feeling of stagnation where people feel that the expansion has not accomplished anything.

I see some of the Salvage and Einherjar items as steps in the right direction, but making old gear completely obsolete may be harsh. Let's take what the developers from World of Warcraft did when they released their first expansion, for example. They brought in a new level cap (60->70), and made the first quested equipments from level 61 and on surpass the ones that the most hardcore endgame guilds worked months/years to get before the expansion. That created frustration among their endgame community and there is already an uproar about the next expansion's bringing a new level cap and the history repeating itself, some endgame guilds even decided to stop raiding until they introduce the next level cap just so they don't "waste time" getting gear that will be obsolete in the next few months. The newer players there don't even get to see much of the old content, jumping straight to the "next tier" when they reach endgame level. I believe the same would happen in Final Fantasy XI if suddenly RotZ and CoP gear became obsolete for the next expansion's and then the one after that did the same to its predecessors. My (admittedly limited) idea to prevent that would be to use the Relic Weapon, Relic Armor+1 and Artifact Armor+1 systems but for old gear too in the newer expansions. Not turning an Adaman Hauberk into an Armada Hauberk, but in order to get that "next tier" of gear set one would need to acquire the old gear first and trade in/upgrade/bless/whatever to turn it into a more powerful armor. For those who can't or don't want to go through the older content in order to reach the highest tiers, there could be decent alternatives, comparable in efficiency to the older content gear but not upgradeable and so not as good as the "new tier".

[Not Kuno]

I see some of the Salvage and Einherjar items as steps in the right direction, but making old gear completely obsolete may be harsh.

I'm thinking of editing that part to be a little more specific, I did not mean to make everything from RotZ obsolete. My point was getting to the fact that SE does not like to many any gear ever released obsolete. While this was done a few times in the past, making certain pieces obsolete would be the only way to 'raise the bar' so to speak. I mentioned relic weapons, ridill and dring because they are very powerful and hold alot of influence in the game. However because of this we are all held back by the restraints placed on the game a few years ago. Why does it have to be this way?

I understand the actions in WoW and how future massive progression can become, but I'm not asking to replace everything we have no. It's just that the bar is set at a certain point and there should be things done by SE to slightly raise the bar each expansion. It seems as if though relic weapons are meant to be the best weapons any player can get and so it places an unessesary cap on how good a weapon can be. The same goes with Ridill and D.Ring, although those problems are also tied in with the HNM stuff I mentioned.

in order to get that "next tier" of gear set one would need to acquire the old gear first and trade in/upgrade/bless/whatever to turn it into a more powerful armor. For those who can't or don't want to go through the older content in order to reach the highest tiers, there could be decent alternatives, comparable in efficiency to the older content gear but not upgradeable and so not as good as the "new tier".

The problem with this is that many still do not have those gears. I should make a new post sometime and call it "Why point system LSes are killing ffxi" because that ties in with this really well. For ages on Bahamut, the linkshells that claim most kings toss whatever nidhogg abjuration drops just so they can get more "points" to be used whenever a ridill or d.ring gets to drop. But thats kind of irrelevant to this although it shows some of the flaws that can exist with this HNM system.

[Tulun]

Not making gear progression combined with the NM lottery system is a huge, huge failing of FFXI. The fact that King camping EXISTS is based on this fact; and I don't think anyone who plays this game regards this as 'fun', but only as something 'necessary' to get gear that's currently top end. Also, if you claim the mob (not really that difficult to kill), you are basically guaranteed a drop, as opposed to something like Salvage (which is good in its own right), which requires a LOT of work and repetition for similar gear.

FFXI needs to make new ways (hopefully outside the NM lottery system; I want fights to be DIFFICULT, not difficult to claim...) of getting better gear to alleviate the King camp system. In fact, it'd be nice if they simply abolished the whole thing... but that won't happen.

[Dark Vincent]

[quote=Not Kuno]

I see some of the Salvage and Einherjar items as steps in the right direction, but making old gear completely obsolete may be harsh.

I'm thinking of editing that part to be a little more specific, I did not mean to make everything from RotZ obsolete. My point was getting to the fact that SE does not like to many any gear ever released obsolete. While this was done a few times in the past, making certain pieces obsolete would be the only way to 'raise the bar' so to speak. I mentioned relic weapons, ridill and dring because they are very powerful and hold alot of influence in the game. However because of this we are all held back by the restraints placed on the game a few years ago. Why does it have to be this way?

I understand the actions in WoW and how future massive progression can become, but I'm not asking to replace everything we have no. It's just that the bar is set at a certain point and there should be things done by SE to slightly raise the bar each expansion. It seems as if though relic weapons are meant to be the best weapons any player can get and so it places an unessesary cap on how good a weapon can be. The same goes with Ridill and D.Ring, although those problems are also tied in with the HNM stuff I mentioned.[/quote:11df5]

As you said, I see Ridill and D. Ring as problems that are tied to the flawed HNM system, and like you, I agree that it wouldn't be bad to make them obsolete, as long as they also created challenging content that warranted new/better alternatives (heck, drop the HNM system for a BCNM-type system and make the fights harder, I'm sure everyone would like it). And we actually want really better alternatives, not a Ridill with +1 str. I doubt anybody will care to go through heaven and hell to obtain +1 str when they can just do what they have always done (it's part of the problem with some of the Salvage gear) for something slightly inferior.

Relic weapons did indeed create an unnecessary cap, and it was really premature to do that in the first expansion, but now one can only hope they find ways around that.

[quote=Not Kuno]

in order to get that "next tier" of gear set one would need to acquire the old gear first and trade in/upgrade/bless/whatever to turn it into a more powerful armor. For those who can't or don't want to go through the older content in order to reach the highest tiers, there could be decent alternatives, comparable in efficiency to the older content gear but not upgradeable and so not as good as the "new tier".

The problem with this is that many still do not have those gears. I should make a new post sometime and call it "Why point system LSes are killing ffxi" because that ties in with this really well. For ages on Bahamut, the linkshells that claim most kings toss whatever nidhogg abjuration drops just so they can get more "points" to be used whenever a ridill or d.ring gets to drop. But thats kind of irrelevant to this although it shows some of the flaws that can exist with this HNM system.[/quote:11df5]

Yeah that's pretty crazy. But yeah for items like ridill and d. ring, making them obsolete wouldn't be a bad idea. That, or drop this flawed HNM system. Or both!

I think some armor sets are pretty characteristical to be made obsolete, specially in case of Abjurations, since they make you experience several contents and bosses in order to complete them (sky gods, land kings...). Making them further upgradeable sounds like an idea of "progress" to me.

[Datonare]

Kind of backtracking a little, but...

I kind of liked level caps, in a sense it sometimes changed the way you would approach a fight (having to pick certain jobs because of what they had at that level, although that can be good and bad.) What I hated was the influx of gear you had to constantly buy and sell, which was not only annoying, but getting undercutted/price gouged on stupid shit got old. If they had implemented items like...

Conquest Cuirass
DEF:5
Latent Effect:
DEF:18~45 HP+5~20 Enmity+1~4
Lv.30 WAR/DRK/PLD

Conquest Axe
DMG:8 Delay:312
Latent Effect:
DMG:26~40 Delay:288 Attack+2~8

And then have pieces for a mnk/sam/nin set, one for dd/etc like a harness set and then a cloth one for mages. Have the latent activated by being under a level restriction, and have the stats on the latent scale up, like HP+5 Enmity+1 for 30 cap, HP+10 Enmity+2 for 40 cap, etc. Even if they restricted you to picking one of the four sets to get and like one or two weapons, still would have saved a lot of grief imo.

Although it doesn't matter, CoP is long done and I don't think level caps are coming back

[Plow]

The problem with this is that many still do not have those gears. I should make a new post sometime and call it "Why point system LSes are killing ffxi" because that ties in with this really well. For ages on Bahamut, the linkshells that claim most kings toss whatever nidhogg abjuration drops just so they can get more "points" to be used whenever a ridill or d.ring gets to drop. But thats kind of irrelevant to this although it shows some of the flaws that can exist with this HNM system.

Well see there's 2 sides to this.

Firstly I agree strongly on part of it, stupidass shit like sitting there with 30 people at kirin 10+ of which are afk/staring at a wall just so they can possibly have more points than the next guy when their shit drops is just... ridiculous.

The thing is, it's like that because of the way the mobs and the drops are set up. A guild in WoW that doesn't keep a point system of some sorts is virtually doomed, to both not having the people they need when it's important because they're not getting loot, as well as to the usual drama associated with a single or group decision or whatever.


This whole thing is turning into a how to make ffxi more like WoW post in a lot of ways lol.

[jibini]

In addition to the Fafnir + Sky model, it was not until CoP were HNM did not have a guaranteed drop.

Fafnir, Nidhogg and other RotZ HNM all had a guaranteed Abjuration drop, as well as either a pop item, black belt quest item, and various money items.

Kirin.

I'm sure we've all the ss of him dropping nothing but a wind crystal...

[Tulun]

This whole thing is turning into a how to make ffxi more like WoW post in a lot of ways lol.

WoW has some things I think a lot of people would want in FFXI... it's almost a shame SE doesn't adopt some of their ideas, and incorporate into their existing system.

[Plow]

This whole thing is turning into a how to make ffxi more like WoW post in a lot of ways lol.

WoW has some things I think a lot of people would want in FFXI... it's almost a shame SE doesn't adopt some of their ideas, and incorporate into their existing system.

Oh but they do.

The entire assault system is virtually a carbon copy of the level 60/70 instances in wow except shorter, with less bosses/loot, and limited entry.


And yes, with heroics, wow even has the "do instances x amount of times for stuff to turn in and choose your own reward." It's been extremely successful too, enough that they're already bringing out a whole new upgraded/more specialized set of items from it.

[Sekkite]

This whole thing is turning into a how to make ffxi more like WoW post in a lot of ways lol.

WoW has some things I think a lot of people would want in FFXI... it's almost a shame SE doesn't adopt some of their ideas, and incorporate into their existing system.

Oh but they do.

The entire assault system is virtually a carbon copy of the level 60/70 instances in wow except shorter, with less bosses/loot, and limited entry.

Meh, you can say that about any kind of instanced area that has some sort of goal involved. I've done WoW instancing and I've done Assault. I like Assault better in many ways as it actually feels like I'm doing something different when I'm participating in new Assaults rather then just going to the same instance doing the same shit to the reskinned or recolored mobs who are now standing in a dark labyrinth rather then some dank cave.

[Plow]

Yeah I didn't mean it detrimentally just pointing out that they are seeming to start to be willing to do the kind of things WoW does that people would like to see in ffxi.

[Sekkite]

Regarding shooting themselves in the foot for adding in relic weapons, they can always add ways to upgrade a relic weapon so that they'd have more options when adding in new gear.

I'd think Wings of the Goddess would be a good opportunity story-line wise to be able to do so.

[Lordender]

The plague of this game in my opinion is that it doesn't age well at all, what i mean is that the players progress way faster than the content that SE adds. Cerberus, Hydra, Khimiara all died within hours of people finding them up is a perfect example. I mean, we don't need that much gear progression these days when you look at what the players have been able to accomplish. Wings of the Goddess i hope adds a whole new level of challenge where HNM's go undefeated for long periods of time like the CoP wyrms did.