So this is what they've done with 1hander pDIF

[Sepuku]

Of course you split sa de then ta de.
Every now and then i try to see how high i can get with sata a.charge Hide DE.

My point , its like giving a child a toy then take it away again.
Here have some higher dagger dmg , hey but we will lower your dmg cap.

They should have let it as it was and pimp up 2h.
I like the 2h dmg its ok. But why the heck lower 1h.
That wasnt necessary.

Too many attributes were changed at once with the update.

As a programmer you change 1 attribute , then run the program, then change the same attribute again and run program after finding the best setup you goto next attribute.

I really think SE programmers wanted to do a good thing, but they overdid it.

[Yutuyu]

Of course you split sa de then ta de.
Every now and then i try to see how high i can get with sata a.charge Hide DE.

My point , its like giving a child a toy then take it away again.
Here have some higher dagger dmg , hey but we will lower your dmg cap.

They should have let it as it was and pimp up 2h.
I like the 2h dmg its ok. But why the heck lower 1h.
That wasnt necessary.

Too many attributes were changed at once with the update.

As a programmer you change 1 attribute , then run the program, then change the same attribute again and run program after finding the best setup you goto next attribute.

I really think SE programmers wanted to do a good thing, but they overdid it.

You don't even understand what you're talking about. If you wanna debate numbers, lets debate numbers. Break the equations and do some math. Show some screenshots. Do something other than state completely subjective opinions, allude to events we never saw occur, and spout more nonsense.

Did the 2 hander change hurt Aurik? Yes, to the tune of 10% damage at best.

Did the 2 hander change hurt you? Yes, to the tune of 2 damage per hit.

Should you quit the game over it when a fix is coming and you were barely hurt by the change? Yes, because at least that way we won't have to hear your baseless whining. Either that or you can just commit your name and spare me the trouble of reading another one of your drivel-filled, anecdotal-evidence posts.

[Domer]

This thread really helped me understand the formulas better. I had a pretty good grasp of pDif, but cRatio has eluded me until now. Thanks!

[Zilong]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but assuming the old ratio being 1.6-2.4 at 2.0 PDIF value, doesn't that mean that as long as your base PDIF value is above 1.6, you'd have a lower cap for the maximum damage?

Which means that not only people that can reach 2.0 PDIF and beyond feel the effect of the "nerf", it's just that those that are 2.0 and above can notice the effect more.

[Yutuyu]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but assuming the old ratio being 1.6-2.4 at 2.0 PDIF value, doesn't that mean that as long as your base PDIF value is above 1.6, you'd have a lower cap for the maximum damage?

Which means that not only people that can reach 2.0 PDIF and beyond feel the effect of the "nerf", it's just that those that are 2.0 and above can notice the effect more.

When your pDIF is between 1.6 and 2.4 is when you feel the effect of the nerf, because your average of your hi and low is gonna be smaller than the average of your hi and low was before the nerf. For example...

1.7 now ranges from 1.3-2. In the past it was 1.3-2.1. 1.7 was the old average, 1.65 is the new average.

[VZX]

Didn't parse it, the fort axe war took tons of hate though!

As I said, my cRatio was probably around 2.0 for the mamool and juriks once you count their higher level and higher defense. About half of my hits on them were for a constant value of like ~105, which is accounted for by a lower fSTR.

Hmm... so does it look like reversed case when you have cRatio = 0.5~1.5 ? (where about 33±7% of your pDIF lies on 1.0)

[Charla]

How have we not seen a joke involving Sepuku's name yet?

More importantly, regardless of whether anyone got hurt, I think it's pretty obvious they didn't intend all 1h hits to do constant damage at high atk. Therefore, it will be fixed. Until then, play your other jobs.

[Wizerd]

I was under the impression that on HNMs, it was basically impossible to reach all this capped/high pdif stuff that I don't understand, and therefore your damage on anything like that is pretty much the exact same as it was before the nerf.

Am I wrong or is Supuku full of shit and just whining for no reason?

Who cares if you hit for less in exp? You're still getting 20-25k/hr. I still hit for 100-120 damage on gears in salvage and that's all that matters.

[Nagamaki]

With buffs, you can get to the affected cRatio range on pretty much anything. On classic HNM (Faf/Kings, Shijin, Grand Wyrms) you'll need pretty heavily stacked buffs but its still doable, and on everything else its really not that hard to reach the affected zone. ToAU HNMs aren't nearly as high level, Salvage stuff isn't high level at all, so level correction is nowhere near as dramatic as it is for old HNM.

When you do get past 2.4 cRatio and all your hits do the same damage is the part where the bitching doesn't make sense though, since in the same situation pre-patch you would be doing the same non-crit average and less on crit average, if you get to that point with buffs you were using pre-patch, what it really tells you is your attack was way overboard, and you could probably cut back on attack to buff other stats more (this will most certainly happen when using Barbarian's Drink or with double buffers in Salvage).

[Wizerd]

With buffs, you can get to the affected cRatio range on pretty much anything. On classic HNM (Faf/Kings, Shijin, Grand Wyrms) you'll need pretty heavily stacked buffs but its still doable, and on everything else its really not that hard to reach the affected zone. ToAU HNMs aren't nearly as high level, Salvage stuff isn't high level at all, so level correction is nowhere near as dramatic as it is for old HNM.

When you do get past 2.4 cRatio and all your hits do the same damage is the part where the bitching doesn't make sense though, since in the same situation pre-patch you would be doing the same non-crit average and less on crit average, if you get to that point with buffs you were using pre-patch, what it really tells you is your attack was way overboard, and you could probably cut back on attack to buff other stats more (this will most certainly happen when using Barbarian's Drink or with double buffers in Salvage).

Hmm never happened to me on any chariot bosses when my attack was around.. 700-800ish? that I remember anyway in the past 4 bosses after patch. And I haven't noticed any of the hit-for-constant-damage stuff anywhere else in Salvage, but with minimal gear unlocks until at least beyond the first floor, I suppose that makes sense.

near-1000 damage Asurans on LBC are hot though.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...erd/asuran.png

[Therin]

http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/271/dmgcaprc0.jpg
About 2.35~ cRatio on sea puks. Lower, obviously, for mamools and juriks, putting me smack dab in the middle of the nerfed region.

Are you bitching because you're doing 122 per fist? @_@ That's about twice the DoT of a two-hander - so as long as your WSes are consistently doing half of what a two-hander's are, you should still be parsing the same. My average Spinning Slash at Mamool Camp went from like 700 pre-patch to about 1,100 post-patch, so if you can consistently average Asuran Fists above 550 (shouldn't be hard, at all) our damage should be comparable.

[Isiolia]

Are you bitching because you're doing 122 per fist? @_@ That's about twice the DoT of a two-hander - so as long as your WSes are consistently doing half of what a two-hander's are, you should still be parsing the same. My average Spinning Slash at Mamool Camp went from like 700 pre-patch to about 1,100 post-patch, so if you can consistently average Asuran Fists above 550 (shouldn't be hard, at all) our damage should be comparable.

Do you have a Relic though? Or gear on par with his MNK gear? If not, wouldn't that be exactly the complaint that a lot of people have with this update?

[Godlywargod]

obviously relic will get farther ahead with its 2x(3x?) dmg procs......

[genome]

I wasn't sure how I felt about the change as I didn't have much time to test it...

But so far I actually like this change (from the little testing I did on farming mobs).

Before the update as monk my criticals capped at 189 per punch and normal punches were in the usual range 100 to 152 (1.6 to 2.4 pDIF) and looking back at old parses the average seemed to be in the middle regardless of how low the monster was, at 126.
Now after the update it's true that I no longer ever punch for 152, but every one of my punches is at the exact average as before, 126. There is no longer a range which is very nice to see and the total damage is the same (at least in capped situations on farming mobs). In fact I actually kill faster because now the criticals are also without a range now in that region, and I critical for 189 every single time.
That makes everything just more straightforward but doesn't seem to lower damage potential in that region. Does anybody have any argument or evidence that this change actually does anything bad in some other situation?

[VZX]

I wasn't sure how I felt about the change as I didn't have much time to test it...

But so far I actually like this change (from the little testing I did on farming mobs).

Before the update as monk my criticals capped at 189 per punch and normal punches were in the usual range 100 to 152 (1.6 to 2.4 pDIF) and looking back at old parses the average seemed to be in the middle regardless of how low the monster was, at 126.
Now after the update it's true that I no longer ever punch for 152, but every one of my punches is at the exact average as before, 126. There is no longer a range which is very nice to see and the total damage is the same (at least in capped situations on farming mobs). In fact I actually kill faster because now the criticals are also without a range now in that region, and I critical for 189 every single time.
That makes everything just more straightforward but doesn't seem to lower damage potential in that region. Does anybody have any argument or evidence that this change actually does anything bad in some other situation?

If that's the case, It's not really a nerf then, infact a potential buff.

Still waiting for Aurik's answer:

Didn't parse it, the fort axe war took tons of hate though!

As I said, my cRatio was probably around 2.0 for the mamool and juriks once you count their higher level and higher defense. About half of my hits on them were for a constant value of like ~105, which is accounted for by a lower fSTR.

Hmm... so does it look like reversed case when you have cRatio = 0.5~1.5 ? (where about 33±7% of your pDIF lies on 1.0)

Also, bolded the part I'm interested in

[divisortheory]

A lot of my thf and mnk friends are retiring their job.
I ll probably also quit the game, since i am back to pre-dagger patch with my thf.
I am just tired of being the TH4 bitch.
People laugh about my dmg.
Full Homam and full heca but once again thieves are fucked in the ass with sandpaper.
Maybe they will fix thf and mnk dmg maybe not. I am sick of living with hopes.
The only way to show SE that they fuck things up badly is to quit the game.

Odd, I'm a THF and I'm not back to pre-dagger patch.

[Evelyn]

Does anybody have any argument or evidence that this change actually does anything bad in some other situation?

As has been stated before, not everyone can get to the magic 2.4 cRatio on mobs, even with buffs. As WAR I get just under 400 attack unbuffed. Berserk gets me to 500, double minuet (usually its only one, with march) 614. Even eating top-tier attack food food I can barely hit 700. So, even in an ideal situation, I still can't hit 2.4 cRatio on colibri, much less anything else. I don't consider myself to be a walmart war either. I don't have Adaberk or ridill, but I've got almost everything except (Haidate, Unicorn Leggings, Dusk Gloves, PCC, Swift). If I can't hit the magic 2.4 on low-def merit mobs using everything I've got, every war except the best-equipped ones out there are going to have problems as well.

And what happens when you're below 2.4? Average pDIF has gone down, so less damage than before.

In truth this hurt all but the top-tier 1-handers, and maybe even some of them. Maybe THF or RNG melee dot got away lucky, but WAR and MNK got hit hard methinks.

[genome]

Does anybody have any argument or evidence that this change actually does anything bad in some other situation?

As has been stated before, not everyone can get to the magic 2.4 cRatio on mobs, even with buffs. As WAR I get just under 400 attack unbuffed. Berserk gets me to 500, double minuet (usually its only one, with march) 614. Even eating top-tier attack food food I can barely hit 700. So, even in an ideal situation, I still can't hit 2.4 cRatio on colibri, much less anything else. I don't consider myself to be a walmart war either. I don't have Adaberk or ridill, but I've got almost everything except (Haidate, Unicorn Leggings, Dusk Gloves, PCC, Swift). If I can't hit the magic 2.4 on low-def merit mobs using everything I've got, every war except the best-equipped ones out there are going to have problems as well.

And what happens when you're below 2.4? Average pDIF has gone down, so less damage than before.

In truth this hurt all but the top-tier 1-handers, and maybe even some of them. Maybe THF or RNG melee dot got away lucky, but WAR and MNK got hit hard methinks.

I see what you mean, basically the only problem is when your cRatio is between 1.7 and 2.3 from StudioGobli's chart, as people mentioned in the previous page, and you still have a range but it's capped at the top making your average lower. This would hurt most the people exactly at 2.0 (getting their damage lowered by 10% compared to before) and gets better and better (5% less at 1.8 or 2.2) as you go toward either 2.3 or 1.7 cRatio where you have no damage reduction.

But above 2.3 cRatio though I think the change is definitely for the better and at least to me it makes it worth it, on some 300+ hits I saw all my criticals hit for exactly 189 and never less which is awesome and much better than before (even on lvl 5 monsters it would have still been in a range with 189 as the highest but not guaranteed on every hit). And of course below it's the same as before so no complaint there.
(example of 189 and 126 screenshot although it's so easy for everyone to test)
So things are a bit different and it has some good and some bad, but personally I like this change. As an added bonus it makes some testing much much easier, and it's all across the board of one-handed weapon users anyways.

The one question that would be nice to address is that of distributions, it's normal to assume uniform distributions but while hitting slightly higher mobs where my pDIF was capped but still had a range I seemed to notice most of the hits being still the exact cap, with only a few hit below it, which would suggest the new cap might be implemented as a sort of afterthought hard-cap on top of the old value for example something like
IF (oldPDIF>2.0) newPDIF=2.0
instead of just changing the endpoints of the pDIF roll. That makes the average higher and not so nerfed even in the 1.7 to 2.3 region.

If anybody has free time that would be something useful to check.

[LD]

If that's the case, It's not really a nerf then, infact a potential buff.

Please...Spare me this, especially to validate someone* who simply said something anyone with eyes has already figured out. Even if the range has been greatly decreased, raising our average, the fact is our potential is lower, so those at their best are now weaker. There was a nerf, that is not the question or the topic at hand, as it has been obvious from day 1 (of this update.) The question has only ever been ‘What is the overall effect?’, and that can't really be known until we know the new 2H formula, since the comparison between the two is all that really matters.

We may have a higher average now when our cRatio reaches a certain threshold, that seems to be the growing theory. With the 2H nerf coming tomorrow, one has to face the possibility that the One-Handed side of the equation is how it was meant to be. A greater average for lower damage per it, isn't that what the idea was in the first place? To be blunt, however, adjusting 1H's damage calculations was never the core of this argument.

I've never directly complained about 1H's lower cap, so much as I've railed against 2H's higher cap (among other things.) I'm sure I don't have to go into the why. If tomorrow's update fixes 2H's two major problems and if it had been implemented on the 27th, this probably would have been a minor bump in an otherwise decent update. Some would have complained about our lowered potential, but odds are it would have been written off as 2H’s adjusted superiority and it wouldn't have become the War it has. A lot of people are trying to make MNK's severe reaction to this about our lower damage, but it's that sort of minimizing and over-simplification that evokes such annoyance in us.

There's a startling lack of objectivity in the speech of many people, we should all just acknowledge this for what it is: A Massively Broken Fuck Up and a change that was made more striking by the sheer size of the Fuck Up. It takes a bit of empathy and maturity to grasp the width and breadth of the situation...

...but that's just my opinion. For better or worse, this will be resolved in the next 24 hours.




*Thieving, lying, supercilious, self-absorbed, calculating, gnat on an asshole, douchebag.

[aurik]

damage has gone up on farming mobs

If that's the case, It's not really a nerf then, infact a potential buff.

For farming, yes. On anything difficult, you won't be hitting 2.4 cRatio, therefore it is a nerf.

About half of my hits on them were for a constant value of like ~105, which is accounted for by a lower fSTR.

Hmm... so does it look like reversed case when you have cRatio = 0.5~1.5 ? (where about 33±7% of your pDIF lies on 1.0)

Yes. As I posted on day 1 of the patch.
Old algorithm:
pDIF = func(cRatio)
if pDIF > 2 : pDIF = 2
pDIF_base += rand(-0.4, 0.6) + crit?1:0
if pDIF > 3: pDIF = 3

New 1H algorithm:
pDIF = func(cRatio)
pDIF_base += rand(-0.4, 0.6)
if pDIF > 2 : pDIF = 2
if crit : pDIF += 1