Let's talk about Ranger

[Turambar]

Just have STR/AGI = ranged attack/accuracy on bow, AGI/STR = ranged attack/accuracy on marksmanship. Problem solved.

Why would STR = ranged accuracy on marksmanship? Or anything for that matter?


EDIT, on topic:

The improvement I'd love to see for RNG: an option to make ranged attacks auto-attack like melee strikes, instead of having to repeatedly hit a /shoot macro.

[BRP]

EES is fine at level 30 and such.

If I'm correct EES is just a 5.0 TPmod WS? Maybe have it not only be 100% accuracy, but maybe increase it by .5 or 1 every 20 or so levels after 30.

[Minions]

Just have STR/AGI = ranged attack/accuracy on bow, AGI/STR = ranged attack/accuracy on marksmanship. Problem solved.

Why would STR = ranged accuracy on marksmanship? Or anything for that matter?

Seeing as no matter how hard you pull a trigger the bullet shouldn't go any faster, it kinda makes sense. Not that agility makes any more sense

[VZX]

RNG's main problem now is mostly DoT and TP gain. Ranged attacks alone are too slow for the damage they deal to compete with melee jobs,

Nara got it

I'll keep re-iterating it over and over again : We need something to boost our potential.

Let's reverse the scenario and call this "Melee nerf".
Conditions are as follow :
- All melee got innate haste job trait 20%
- Dual Wield/Martial Arts doesn't give you any delay reduction/doesn't exist
- Additional haste capped 10% from your gear, 15% from everything else(Marches, Haste, etc). Giving you total only 25% haste
Total haste on melee : 25%~45%

Now, would melee accept this?
If I were the melees , I'd say no.

There's difference between innate and potent DD capability. RNG has relatively high innate DD capability (high damage ranged weapons + ammo, higher delay/second on ranged weapon, wide array of racc gear). However, their potent DD capability is not as high to cover the gap between melees during buffed fight(read: Marchx2 and haste).

See what RNG has right now:
- Rapid Shot (JT + Hunter's Beret (+1))
- Snapshot (6% max from merit + Jalzahn's during Salvage/Assault)

Clearly, it's not as potent as the following:
- Double Attack
- Triple Attack
- High Haste cap and the availability of haste gear.

So my request is to make haste available to ranged attack. I like it better than making innate "Snapshot" on us.

It might be a big change... probably as big as when ranged attack patched to give TP.

As for unnerfing it back to 2005, I don't think it's necessary. We clearly see how broken is no level penalty to Kirin/Faf/Behe

[kuronosan]

Just have STR/AGI = ranged attack/accuracy on bow, AGI/STR = ranged attack/accuracy on marksmanship. Problem solved.

Why would STR = ranged accuracy on marksmanship? Or anything for that matter?


EDIT, on topic:

The improvement I'd love to see for RNG: an option to make ranged attacks auto-attack like melee strikes, instead of having to repeatedly hit a /shoot macro.

STR to keep the weapon stable? When was the last time a bullet's damage depended on physical strength?

[Shadida]

I feel that while the discussion of adding status inflicting abilities is interesting, there are a few concerns I have about it:

1. I can't help but laugh when you toy with the "Shadowbind" name lol, the reason it's Shadowbind is because it binds your shadow in place rendering you immobile. ShadowSlow doesn't make any sense at all. XD

2. What we're describing here is a Corsair without Phantom Roll and better ranged attacks - I don't think this is the spirit of Ranger at all. For the mixed support/debuff/ranged attacker, Corsair is the choice - and I'm sure Squeenix would agree.

3. I know some people feel like the problem with Ranger is the fact that they lack versatility and capability on the end-game scene, but I have to disagree. Our purpose always has been raw, sheer damage, and we still do a stand-up job at this. The problem is that devoted Ranged Attackers (meaning those who do not melee as a means of earning TP/doing DMG) lack the tools other physical DDs have at their disposal. Namely:

• Haste (this is a biggy)[/*:m:5aa9b]
• Double Attack (and thereby Brutal Earring)[/*:m:5aa9b]
• SATA (And BLU *can* SATA Ranged Attacks such as Cannonball!)[/*:m:5aa9b]
• Zanshin[/*:m:5aa9b]
• Critical hits on WSs (Did you know!? Sidewinder can't crit!)[/*:m:5aa9b]

Without any of these things, all we have to improve our DoT or TP gain (assuming a normal RNG is RNG/WAR) are:

• A Kraken Club or Ridill (which few RNGs have the luxury of using)[/*:m:5aa9b]
• Snapshot (which is limited to a paltry 6% per merit (not even half of the Haste spell) and an un-verified amount in Salvage/Assault only.[/*:m:5aa9b]
• Rapid Shot - which can be merited up 5% through merits but only activates naturally about 10% of the time.[/*:m:5aa9b]
• Samurai subjob which of course disallows a Warrior subjob. (This is actually my choice in most situations such as Limbus, Dynamis, Einherjar, and Salvage - Store TP and Meditate together make it much easier to gain TP in a reasonable amount of time especially when mobs die very fast)[/*:m:5aa9b]

So, I think that abilities or other means through which we can improve these things, or our overall damage output, will be the key to balancing RNG. I really don't think there's a need for further support/debuff abilities. Still, amusing ideas.

edit: and lol, VZX beat me to a lot of this haha!

[Plow]

Honestly at this point, the stuff that rng made a joke... is a joke regardless.



Original nerf could probably be undone without throwing things too far out of whack, although there would probably be some pretty serious rng burn going on in toau merits obviously.

[Bluenuts]

I really think a big problem is how slow we shoot (the combination of weapon delay and reload). I like the possible solutions mentioned here with increased snapshot gear and maybe rapid shot II. Allowing haste to enhance ranged attacks sounds good also I guess but I would rather lean towards giving us a way to increase our DoT without relying on mages.

The thing that gets me the most though is this ranged/sweet spot deal. They need to do away with it totally. If SE has a problem with Rngs getting TP/dmg from our melee weapons then adjust our Accuracy trait to a Ranged Acc trait that decreases our melee acc also. I realize Kraken Rngs wont like this... but hey I took up Rng cause I liked shooting arrows, not whacking something to get TP then letting off a WS.

[Abel]

I'm new to being on forums, though a long time reader so I can't quote for crap, but for those who think money=/=dmg I agree, while I disagree at the same time, costs plays a major factor for those players who don't have a ton of money to throw around. I don't think RNG should be cheapened at all on the way up to 75, but it would be nice if recycle kicked in like crazy with merits at 75 (75%~) to justify buying really expensive bullets, or arrows (hi2u Kabura). However on the way to 75 I'm fine without recycle, it means the people who truly wish to play the job are either gimping themselves (i've seen one particular rng/thf who somehow still gets pts, but he's also still in his 40s from months ago) and not getting invites, or gearing themselves up, and getting a few invites while at the same time spending copious amounts of gil to out-damage everybody else. But once you make it to 75 and have to spend top gil just to keep your spot in the PT at the given HNM, gets old fast. Where as you could go to another 75 job and only spend the money for food. And I honestly don't think you should be have to choose to lower your damage in order to save your gil, as in equipping AF2 vs anything else you can equip that would help you, either by AF+1 or ohat or wyvern helm, what have you.

I whole-heartedly agree that str and agi should both be directly racc and ratk, and I know it's old but could we at least see our damned ranged attack, and let the mob /check via ranged attack instead of whatever melee weapons we have? I always get annoyed that I have to keep track of my ranged attack via the formulas rather than just taking a glance. And not being able to see if certain mobs are high,neutral, or low def/eva is just poor form by SE.

Haste affecting ranged attacks would be by far one of the biggest buffs rng could get, and I feel it would be far better than a snapshot effect, though I believe snapshot should be bumped up to like 5% per merit, 15% innate haste wouldn't even be close to what a dual wielder could get, allowing it to be able to retain it's 'job ability haste' status rather than reducing TP gotten.

But the main point is still for anything critical ranger needs to be standing at optimum distance to dish out good damage, the sweet spot has grown I believe since the 'un-nerf' so it's usually easier to get into, but that doesn't help when you can never be in it due to the damage you do while in it, even if you hold back it's going to turn to you unless you're just utterly gimping your damage to the point that you become a waste of a PT slot, and then you give the job a bad name. It's contradictory really, to do the best damage you need to be at a distance to where if the mob moves to you (for doing the best damage) you've now gimped your damage for knowing how to be in the right spot. And I realize you can meter your hate and keep an eye on it as a good DD should, but honestly even with normal shots evenly paced to ride that hate line, you will still get it to turn to you with just about anything further. Perhaps this is just my experience and nobody else has noticed it.

Ranged Attack trait would be extremely effective imo, I would prefer a trait or something unique to a non-subbed RNG such as snapshot trait, rapid shot kicking in at least 35% rather than a measely 10% and even then it's really not that much faster in the grand scheme of things when you compare it to say triple attack or double attack. It would be nice if we could get something like double attack for ranged weapons, ie able to knock and shoot two arrows occasionally, though I'm certain that's asking for far too much, just an innate haste or something to lower the hard reload times which are what really kills us in speed. Because quite honestly, we have to run into position (even the fastest rng will waste 1-2 shots here, and then engage and start firing, for a minimal total of 2 shots missing or even 3-4 depending on how slow and if you can even get such a distance while not getting hit by ballad near the mages, and not catching aggro from something anywhere else. It's too contradictory for it's own good imo, especially in fast-paced scenarios which are growing by the day.

I'm fine with how RNG is currently don't get me wrong, it's just the 2h update really exacerbated some problems we had since the initially 'update' to us. I'm confident and sure that RNG won't be changed, and I play the job for the love of it, not for a bandwagon job everybody wants. I'm all for RNG getting some much needed love, but am also content with how it is, despite it's quirky flaws. We don't need any debuffing or anything to increase our utility, we just need to have the ability to walk the path of a high DD, war's have ridills, fort axe and even joytoy to increase their attack and utility quite a lot. MNKs have Black Belt and Dune Boots, RNGs have...Ebow? KC and Ridill don't entirely count imo b/c there are easier alternatives for both of the aforementioned jobs, and RNGs are meant to ranged attack, not spam KC or Ridill close up and WS, I play to be a RNG, not to be a melee who uses RNG ws.

[fantasticdan]

[*]SATA (And BLU *can* SATA Ranged Attacks such as Cannonball!)

Cannonball isn't calculated as a ranged attack, it's just melee with long range like mistral axe. SATA doesn't work with the blue magic that is calculated as r. atk like pinecone bomb or featherstorm.

[Sonomaa]

Regarding the initial nerf, ranger had to die so other jobs could live, thats simply the long and the short of it.

Ranger could be returned to pre-nerf damage but keep current accuracy levels and it probably wouldnt be too bad. We should be able to keep constant hard damage on a mob. Im a /nin ranger personally, I have a haste build I use to help gather TP, granted I have a ridill, Ive never been a fan of the /war usage, simply because Ive seen too many rangers brag about their damage while asking for a raise because their 200 damage more slug/side got them killed, while they wait for weakness I continue putting constant and reliable dot on the mob.

Regarding additional abilities to make ranger more versatile. Your forgetting the XXX-aim traits of other FF games.
Arm-Aim -- Reduces enemy attack speed
Leg-Aim -- Reduces enemy movement speed
Head-Aim -- Reduces enemy accuracy

Adding those would allow for more usage of a ranger in instances where minor debuffing is needed, they could be stacked traits, meaning you can only use one of them at a time, on the same recast timer similar to phantom roll.

I think snapshot should be increased to 3% or more, we have the equivalent of a 2h weapon, we should be able to equal their damage considering we dont get a buff for our attack speed without merits. I think they should also increase the damage of elemental arrows, holy bolts have a sickening proc rate, elem arrows should be equivalent. Bow rangers have the disadvantage of moderatly expensive ammo compared to xbow, who can last for weeks with 1 stack of darksteel for WS and 1k a stack HBs. I personally use demon arrows because of the 50k vs 200k price on bahamut, and no, I dont see xbow at all as an alternate choice for me, I was born with a bow in my paw, Ill stay that way forever.

Looking over my ranger gear Im wearing right now, I only have 2 items from CoP era and 2 items from ToaU. That being my hope torque, ranger af2 belt, and denali gamashes, and pahluwan pants. Torque and belt are no question as far as awesome goes, though torque could be chram easily, belt could be RSE for the str bonus. I use pahluwan because its af2 with str on it, denali because I keep my af2 stored, so its my basic setup, when super important stuff comes out I bust out the claim slip.

Of all the jobs, I believe ranger exists the most in zilart compared to any others. Our best bows/xbows are all zilart era, best paws come from sky, best body sky, r-acc rings have existed forever, I use rajas but i could easily use another behemoths. Amemet, our staple of awesome for years, suppa for the agi + dw action, triumph because its str. Ranger needs some gear progression but you cant really make it any better honestly. The best adjustment could be the 1-1 conversion the 2h players got, or at least give us awesome attack with current accuracy. We are nowhere near as accurate as before, when we simply couldnt miss, so let us hit really fucking hard.

We could easily and properly exist with only zilart level gear, the new ring is really nice, but we need more loving, not more additions we should have had from the start (the quiver bullshit). Give us back our power, it will drive up the arrow market surely, since people only use WW to make HQ staves now a days. Im a pre-nerf ranger, leveled it before it was the bandwagon, sat on it during the nerf, never gave up, though I leveled warrior. I have an ebody and ridill, but when people ask my job, its ranger.

[Sanjiyan]

Here's what I put in that other thread on Alla in regards to RNG.

How about a mode whereby the RNG will auto-fire arrows at "maximum" speed, as opposed to having to press a macro every time we shoot? It'll be like engaging an enemy, only that we have to turn the mode on (maybe something like "/raa <t>") and it will be interrupted/cancelled if we move, press any macro, or make any equipment changes.

This will make RNG slightly less tedious, and help take full advantage of rapid shot and snap shot by removing the human timing aspect between each shot. As it is now if you hit a /ra too early after a shot, you take a penalty. Too late and well...

I believe something like this will go a long way to improve RNG DoT, more so than getting miniscule amounts of haste.

Additionally, ideas of "recycle" as a native JT, more gear that boosts recycle, reduced "unlimited shot" timer to 1min, changes to conquest ammo similar to bomb core so it doesn't get wasted, or allowing conquest ammo to be a stack instead of a single, changes to EES, making r.acc mean something (melees get 2 acc = +1% acc, why not for r.acc?), changes to RNG mechanics so it's less dependent on food (must eat meat to go above the range whereby there's no variation in damage), changes to other useless JA like camouflage and the broken scavange, etc etc... are also all great.

I don't believe RNGs should go back to pre-nerf days, but instead boosted in a whole new way to fit the current conditions of the game as judged by economy, crafting market, and current game trends and game mechanics.

[SamanosukeShiva]

auto-ranged attack mode please >.>

[BRP]

Reading through this thread, here is what I'm in favor of (I mean altogether as one big update) :

-EES being 100% accuracy. Going up .5 WS mod at level 50, then again at level 70. (for a total 6.0 mod at 75).

-Magical Haste working on Ranged Attacks. (Pretty much only the spell or belt)

-At level 40, RNG receives a trait that does the following: The accuracy of debuff ammo goes up by quite a bit and is further enhanced by MND and Magical Accuracy. As a control to this: Magical Accuracy will drop if many monsters are attempted to be effected in a short time(so to speak, a RNG would have a hard time trying to sleep many monsters at once).

-New enfeebling ammo, preferably 40 or above: (Arrows and Bolts RNG only, Bullets RNG/COR)
Bullet
-Dia
-Bio
Arrow
-Slow
-Gravity
-Dispel
-Blind
Bolt
-Paralyze
-Evasion Down
-Dispel

-New job ability that lasts 1-2 minutes with a recast of 4-5 minutes. Based on Ranged weapon, the RNG's STR, AGL, or MND effect on him increases. (Basically, 1 STR = 1 RAtk, 1 AGL = 1 Racc, uh... 1 MND = 1 Macc/more potency?)
Gun = AGL
Bow = STR
Crossbow = MND
In addition: Shortbow type bows have a higher chance of Critical. Cannons type guns have a chance to stun.

-Scavenger has the chance to get (1 to 12ish) of an ex version of your current ammo(the chance is pretty decent, even likely). Certain ammo can not be scavenged: CP ammo, Heavy Shell.

Seems like a lot, but I don't think it would much imbalance as most changes power Ranger in different directions.

[Stolin]

opinions:
*I like the idea of RNG having a job ability like Hasso to make your ranged attacks auto-attack.

*The positioning clusterfuck needs to be abolished completely. Position in this game is too important to have it handicap an entire job.

*The ranged formula is fine the way it is without the positioning shit imo.

*Give rng another passive accuracy trait.

*Giving ranged attacks haste would be nice, too. Just cap it lower than melee haste.

[Artemas]

I completely agree about improving EES.
Not necessarily making it 100%/going through shadows (it's always great when dynamis mobs miss this), but it's really ridiculous how it's currently set up.
One main issue with our job is the lack of DoT. We're great on spike damage/fast damage, but in comparison to the DoT of nin/mnk/war/flavor of the month, we're sorely lacking. Haste/double attack/triple attck potential coupled with our long delays contribute to lolrng.
How about we gain a job trait that allows us to fire two arrows at a time? Like an HQ critical, as it were. We lose two arrows in our inventory but the damage would yield a double shot. Tp gain would also show two hits. This could be a "ranger double attack".

[Abel]

>.> That sounds strangely like what I proposed with the ability to occasionally nock two arrows at once and fire them at will.

[Temporal]

Hi, Career Ranger here myself, been playing ranger since NA ffxi was released.
I Think rangers should get "stances" Similiar to a samurai's Hasso and segan.

Scouts Stance
- Can Melee
- Ranged Damage and accuracy affected by distance to target
- +10% evasion
- +10% parry (give us goddamn parry skill)

Rangers Stance
- Cannot Melee
- Ranged Damage and accuracy unaffected by distance to target
- -20% Movement speed
- Cannot Parry
- Ranger has bow/gun/xbow out fulltime, thus reducing delay by 20%
- 2hr cannot miss and does +10% damage

Hunters Stance
- Can Melee
- Ranged Damage and accuracy affected by distance to target
- Ranged Delay +10%
- Ranger aims for target's weak spots, giving chance on hit to reduce target's attack speed, movement speed, accuracy, defense or evasion.
- 2hr does reduced damage, but stuns target for 3seconds.

or something like that
I thought of this in 5mins, please dont kill me ._.

[shirizaan]

I'm a career Ranger, and damn proud of it. Since Ye Olde Nerf of 2005, I've worked really hard to remind the people around me that Ranger is NOT a dead job, and that we can still carry our weight in a variety of situations. It takes the proper expertise, equipment and attention to detail, but it can still be done. In fact, I've said many times that I think the Ranger nerf was one of the best things to happen to Rangers. Not only did it fix the game (we were undoubtedly broken), but it forced out the bandwagoners who thought "money = effective damage" and now die-hard Rangers (and even Rangers in general) are more skilled and conscious of their performance than ever before.

Still I find myself, along with other top-notch Rangers of today, working hard to cope with the same challenges which reared their ugly heads after that patch two years ago. Squeenix has thrown us a bone or two to help us deal with them (namely Snapshot and Flashy Shot), but I still think that the Ranger job requires more attention, and I've even heard non-Rangers say this on the forums lately. And so, I'd like to start some discussion about what changes people think could improve the Ranger job, without restoring its easily-abused overpowered status of before the patch.

DISCLAIMER: READ THIS BEFORE POSTING HERE, PLEASE

• This thread is not for QQing, if all you're gonna do is cry and moan, then lurk some more[/*:m:e6838]
• This thread is not about 2-handed damage/accuracy changes. While Rangers face some of the same challenges as 2-handers, do not derail this into a discussion of the 2-handed changes.[/*:m:e6838]
• Ranger should NOT go back to the way it was in 2005. It was broken, and if they brought it back it would be just as broken. If you post that SE should put Ranger back the way it was, then you are not contributing to this discussion.[/*:m:e6838]
• If you think Ranger is fine the way it is, then feel free to share it, but don't be ugly about it or discourage others from posting their ideas.[/*:m:e6838]

I hope to write a summary of ideas we come up with here and send them to the FFXI team (via the lol POL function, yes) or even see if any of the community sites or other people with ties to Square Enix can present them at least in written form.

I think we are capable of some very good ideas here, and I'm looking forward to hearing what current, retired and non-Rangers have to offer. I'll begin.

tl;dr

[Priran]

HEY GUYS RNG IS STILL GOOD BUT IT NEEDS A BUFF DONT U THINK LOL? IF U DISAGREE STFU AND DON'T POST

if you're going to pretend like you're a despot over the direction this thread can take, you'd probably be more comfortable over at zam.