Four Punches.

[RKenshin]

it hurts to read this after coming back from Summer vacation. But I hope they evened out the playing field a little more because some people were getting far too buffed. I was getting sick of seeing Onimaru Sams outparse very well equipped/merited Wars and monks. Hopefully this time they have made it so that a well equipped 2her can keep up, but not so much that parties begin to neglect other jobs available.

SAM WS are definitely weaker than before the update.

[Lhexh]

Playing around with Ridill and I'm seeing the change in ratio as well. It sure seems to be like they changed 2-handers to 2.6 capped ratio ( 2.2 to 3.0 pdif range ) and 1-handers now have a 2.1 capped ratio ( 1.7 to 2.5 pdif range, I've seen Ridill noncrit for 128 which exceeds the old 2.4 pdif cap and the crit cap was upped to 3.1 ).

Edit: I've gotten a hit for 85 with Ridill now which would be a 1.6 pdif so I'm ranging from 1.6 to 2.5 now for non-crits. I've also ranged from 140 to 162 for crits which is 2.7 to 3.1 so far.

[Kirschy]

Went outside Bastok with Scythe

DMG: 103
fSTR cap: 19
Base D: 122

NORMAL:
283
341
346
303
343
306
351
328
314
298
304
299
326
285
297
309
277
347
300
266
302
348
304
321

CRITS
383
367
380
379
377
382
377
378
370
380
374

Catastrophe:
1384(Sneak Attack)
1411(Sneak Attack)
1220(Normal, no Sneak Attack)


Rough Conclusions:
Normal Hits:
Low - 266 - ~2.18 pdif
High - 351 - ~2.87 pdif
Avg - 310 - ~2.54 pdif

Critical Hits:
Low - 367 - ~3.0 pdif
Avg - 377 - ~3.01 pdif
High - 383 - ~3.14 pdif


I think thats about 35 hits... not a huge sample, but at least gives me an idea of whats going on. Hits/WS don't appear to cap off.

[skurlover]

The 99 was with Destroyers equipped...

Low Punch: 99
High Punch: 152
Low Crit: 169
High Crit: 197 (someone has hit 198)

I'm guessing with capped cRatio (is this the right statistic?) - PDIF Floor is 1.5, and cap is 2.4 (damage range would be 99-158 for normal punches)... If I remember correctly, that's how it has always been, prior to the glitch.

I don't know off hand, but I'm guessing the PDIF Floor for critical hits is 2.5...

A Senji (DMG: 38) NIN is claiming crits to cap out at 150... which is normal, so it seems this boost is exclusive to H2H users.

Bolded part (if true) is going to really piss a lot of people off.

[Niiro]

Posted this in another thread but it seems more relevant here:

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/5213/statcb8.png

Pre-
http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/5674/premc0.png

Should be 1179 but I forgot to re-equip my grip after wiping TP.

Same damage every time (as you know).

Post-
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/7638/postih6.png

Nothing on actual mobs yet, but I figured I'd throw this out.

[Francisco II]

To the person hitting 135 criticals, with no weapon: Can I assume your H2H is either 292 or 299 (or in that range)?

Barehanded:

floor(292 * .11) = 32
WRANK = 0
H2H Base = 3
FSTR = 8
WDmg = 0

32 + 8 + 3 + 0 + 0 = 43

135 / 3 = 45

2 "Damage" unaccounted for.

With Destroyers:

floor(292 * .11) = 32
WRANK = 2
H2H Base = 3
FSTR = 8
WDmg = 18

32 + 18 + 8 + 3 + 2 = 63

198 / 3 = 66

3 "Damage" unaccounted for.

...Doesn't make much sense, unless you're just not hitting the cap at 135, and it's 138.

Is the "3 base damage" from H2H calculated from anything special, or is it "just there"? I'm thinking maybe they boosted it up to 6.

[Dearna]

yeah my h2h is at 292. I just crit on a skele in gustaberg for 139.

[genome]

With Destroyers and capped merits I got a range of 105 to 155 with normal punches, and 173 to 197 with criticals.

If you assume that base damage caps from h2h, fSTR etc isn't changed that would be a pDIF range of 1.66 to 2.46 for normal hits (or wider since I might not have gotten the absolute highest and lowest), and 2.74 to 3.12 for criticals.

If we assume 198 is the max critical and assumed that max pDIF hasn't and is still 3.0 however you get a nice number for the base damage being just 3 more than before, which seems more likely.

Edit: the 3 dmg on H2H base is just there, I think it's a necessity to make h2h damage work even barehand at 0 skill and 0 h2h, so it is possible that they just increased it to 6. One way to test this would be to take a mule or char with 0 h2h and punch a few things barehand.

[Max™]

Not enough numbers to be useful, but I was in Lag-gate, so I just ran outside and tested on Colibri.

Rampager Dmg 87, 280 Skill, 66+30 Str. 41 Exp mob (with Sanction on)

276 Low Crit
305 High Crit
Normal hits ranged from like 170 up to 245 I believe.

First Raging Rush did 1306, which is about 200 more than I would usually get out there (I wasn't critting as much/as high before), normal TP return. Mighty Strikes+Warrior's Charge did 1557, 20 Tp return.

Feels a lot more normal, been in a weird damage limbo, oddly high melee, weird roof, RR having a weird capped off feeling too it.

Oh, and with 280 Skill, 68 Dex, and 0 Acc at all, VT Marids are low eva, so just confirming one more time, Dex=Acc still for 2h.

[Dearna]

Edit: the 3 dmg on H2H base is just there, I think it's a necessity to make h2h damage work even barehand at 0 skill and 0 h2h, so it is possible that they just increased it to 6. One way to test this would be to take a mule or char with 0 h2h and punch a few things barehand.

Well, I'm not sure if its right or not, but I did get a 198 crit, and I haven't gotten higher yet with destroyers and 292 h2h skill, so perhaps you are right. I await the math gurus to come out and take what is gathered here and let us know the big changes.

[Francisco II]

Lv.1 Galka - hit 2-5 mostly... got a couple of 6s in... critical hits did 7, 10 and 11...

I think a BRD is needed to test this at lower levels - unfortunately I don't have one handy.

[Sidanoir]

Algol
Base D: 85
fstr: 17
DAMAGE: 102

Outside Saru:

Normal hits:
283
276
241
280
229
303
274
270
232
275
251
247
252
241
283
303
270
270
274
283
229
251


Crit hits:
302
319
315
309
318
318
309
315
302

MIN 229 302
mAX 303 319
average 264.4 311.88

229 is about 2.25 PDIF
303 is almost but not quite 3 for non crit

319 is 3.12 PDIF...

Perhaps crit cap for 2 hander is 3.2?

Seems like a 2.2-3.0 range for 2 hander is in line with what everyone else is seeing.

The crits below 3.0 PDIF are outliers it seems, I should have stuck to same mobs but was just trying to get a general sense. They were vs yag initiates and i was completely naked...

[genome]

If everything was back to before the previous patch with just an extra 3 base damage for H2H we should be able to get 66*2.4=158 as the max damage on normal punches. I got 155 so far which is pretty close, but if anybody got 158 exactly it would help to verify this.

If the change just applies to H2H and not other weapons like ridill that would also suggest that it's either a change in the base damage of H2H (from the hidden base 3 to a base 6) or possibly some other change in the contribution to H2H skill (probably less likely). It would seem more unlikely that they changed pDIF ranges just for one weapon or job.

Another way to more easily test this is using monk as a subjob to some other jobs, so your stats are still maxed but your H2H is capped at much lower values (I forget if using a job combo without h2h skill at all and hitting barehand would work because I don't remember if you would get the +3 base or not that way).

[Motenten]

With Fransisco's numbers on H2H:
No weapon, 43 base damage, cap crit of 135
Destroyers, 63 base damage with cap crit of 198
Both can be reached if cap crit is 3.15 now: 43 * 3.15 = 135.45, 63 * 3.15 = 198.45.

Going back to Khelek's numbers with Tred scythe: d95, +8 +10 for fStr, yields 113 base. 113 * 3.15 = 355.95. Max crit he got was 355.

Went pld/thf out to saruta. 94 Str. Always used Sneak Attack. Following are predicted and actuals with various weapons.

Kinkobo (d68, +max fStr: 83; x3 = 249; x3.15 = 261)
249, 250, 258, 252, 256, 260, 253, 259, 249, 251, 260, *261

Subduer (d85, +max fStr: 102; x3 = 306; x3.15 = 321)
310, 314, 311, 310, 308, 316, 316, 308, 310, 310, 309, 311
-- Didn't come close to predicted cap. If I was shy by 1 fStr, cap should have been 318.

Company Sword (d46, +max fStr: 59; x3 = 177; x3.15 = 185)
177, 161, 173, *185, 177, 172, 170, 167, 178, 181, 184, 164

Warp Cudgel (d15, +max fStr: 24; x3 = 72; x3.15 = 75)
74, 72, 73, 65, 71, 71, 66, 70, 72, 74, 72, 73, 74, 72, *75

So far the trend looks like both 1h and 2h weapons can reach 3.15 max crit, but 2h seem to also have a floor of 3.0, while 1h tend to only sometimes go above 3.0, with a min sample of 2.71.


H2H, 110 skill (from thf sub plus merits): 12 + 3 = 15; +max fStr = 23; x3 = 69; x3.15 = 72
66, 66, 64, 70, 71, 71, 68, 63, 71, *72, 70


It may also be that the fStr calculation has changed rather than max pDiff. However if it has, then the Company Sword max should be a multiple of 3 (186, not 185). Considering the frequency with which I hit the max value (ie: not very often), it's apparent that it's a more uniform distribution of values, rather than something like 2.5 to 3.5, then capped at 3.0, leaving half of the damage values at the max. As such, it seems (to me) that it is unlikely that the max value is higher than listed for the sword, though it is possible; this is a relatively small sample, after all.

[Suds]

Are 2 handed WS stacking with SA now? Just wondering if SA is back, but can't get on yet.

[genome]

With Fransisco's numbers on H2H:
No weapon, 43 base damage, cap crit of 135
Destroyers, 63 base damage with cap crit of 198
Both can be reached if cap crit is 3.15 now: 43 * 3.15 = 135.45, 63 * 3.15 = 198.45.
...
Company Sword (d46, +max fStr: 59; x3 = 177; x3.15 = 185)
177, 161, 173, *185, 177, 172, 170, 167, 178, 181, 184, 164

Warp Cudgel (d15, +max fStr: 24; x3 = 72; x3.15 = 75)
74, 72, 73, 65, 71, 71, 66, 70, 72, 74, 72, 73, 74, 72, *75

So far the trend looks like both 1h and 2h weapons can reach 3.15 max crit, but 2h seem to also have a floor of 3.0, while 1h tend to only sometimes go above 3.0, with a min sample of 2.71.


H2H, 110 skill (from thf sub plus merits): 12 + 3 = 15; +max fStr = 23; x3 = 69; x3.15 = 72
66, 66, 64, 70, 71, 71, 68, 63, 71, *72, 70


It may also be that the fStr calculation has changed rather than max pDiff. However if it has, then the Company Sword max should be a multiple of 3 (186, not 185). Considering the frequency with which I hit the max value (ie: not very often), it's apparent that it's a more uniform distribution of values, rather than something like 2.5 to 3.5, then capped at 3.0, leaving half of the damage values at the max. As such, it seems (to me) that it is unlikely that the max value is higher than listed for the sword, though it is possible; this is a relatively small sample, after all.

So it seems it applies to all 1hand weapons (from the club and sword data) and not just H2H, we just need to figure out where the damage change comes from exactly (pDIF or base damage/fSTR cap).
When taking data look at the normal hits damage too, as those have changed as well (e.g., a 155 normal hit with destroyers is above the previous pDIF cap of 2.4).

[NynJa]

Are 2 handed WS stacking with SA now? Just wondering if SA is back, but can't get on yet.

SA was never gone...it just lost purpose since 2h weapons never missed, and the damage peak was equivalent to what crits could offer, which made it useless.

[Alisha]

how does this damage cap intteract with damage type bonuses? back in the day when i didnt have destroyers yet and used avengers i could break 200 dmg crits on spartoi and those magic pots in sky.

[genome]

how does this damage cap intteract with damage type bonuses? back in the day when i didnt have destroyers yet and used avengers i could break 200 dmg crits on spartoi and those magic pots in sky.

Unless they changed that separately too, it should be the same multiplicative bonus. So regardless of how fSTR and pDIF has changed, you should be able to do 1.125x damage on skeletons (and 1.25x on magic pots).
Only that before you would do 189*1.125 = 212 max crits with destroyers and max merits on skeletons, and now you should do 222 on them. It's easy to check this on low level ones, but it won't help you figure out if the change is in the pDIF or fSTR (the same for avengers and max crits of course).

[Motenten]

Long data post, no conclusive results. Skip if you're not into the math. If you are, please offer comments.


In case fStr has changed, working backwards:

kinkobo: max crit: 261. Implied base with 3x: 87. Weapon damage: 68. Possible fStr: 19

subduer: uncertain

company: max crit: 185 (186?). Implied base with 3x: 62. Weapon damage: 46. Possible fStr: 16

warp cudgel: max crit: 75. Implied base with 3x: 25. Weapon damage: 15. Possible fStr: 10

h2h: max crit: 72. Implied base with 3x: 24. Weapon damage: 15. Possible fStr: 9


Postulate: max fStr = 9 + WR/9

h2h: WR=0; max fStr = 9
warp cudgel: WR=1; max fStr = 10
company: WR=5; max fStr = 14 XX
kinkobo: WR=7; max fStr = 16 XX

Does not match.

Postulate: max fStr = 8 + WR/7; h2h base skill included, but not base 3

h2h: WR=1; max fStr = 9
warp cudgel: WR=2; max fStr = 10
company: WR=6; max fStr = 14 XX
kinkobo: WR=9; max fStr = 17 XX

Does not match.

Between company and kinkobo, for WR/n, n can be between 6 and 10
Between company and cudgel, for WR/n, n can be between 5 and 6

Take 6

Postulate: max fStr = 8 + WR/6

warp cudgel: WR=2; max fStr = 10
company: WR=7; max fStr = 15 XX
kinkobo: WR=11; max fStr = 19

Close, but not quite.

Company would work if max was 183 rather than 186. Unfortunately it's 185. Possibly incomplete data. Possibly counts its weapon rank based on d48? If so, would match for a cap of 186. Need to use a weapon without latents to be sure.

Using WR/6, Kirschy's data would indicate a max crit of 384. His max reported was 383.


Other h2h data:
No weapon, 110 skill: 72 max crit; 15 base; fStr diff is 9.
No weapon, capped skill: 135 max crit; 45 base; skill should generate 35 base damage, so fStr diff is 10.
Destroyers, capped skill: 198 max crit; 66 base; skill should generate 53 base damage, so fStr is 13.

Destroyers are +d18. 18/6 = 3, which is the increase seen in potential fStr.

If fStr calculations changed, we should be able to see the difference with waghs (WR of 13/6 = 2, fStr of 12), boreas cesti (WR of 6/6 = 1, fStr of 11), and Freesword's Baghnakhs (WR of 3/6 = 0, fStr of 10).

The most telling will be if there's an upgrade in max fStr between the Freesword's and the Boreas, as that means the change happens by +6 damage instead of the old +9.

Data:
Skill: 292
Str: 92

Destroyers: 198 (known)
Waghs: 170, 188, 170, 188, 178, 188, 172, 173, 186, 185, 188, 177, 193, 191, 181, 182, 184, 186, 187, 195
Boreas: 151, 155, 146, 135, 157, 154, 155, 151, 142
Freesword's: 131, 129, 121, 130, 140, 141, 136, 125, 138, 140, 138, 141, 126, 143, 138, 136, 142, 143, 143, 143
No weapon: 135 (known)

Max damage (current):
Destroyers: 198
Waghs: 195
Boreas: 157
Freesword's: 143
No weapon: 135


Experimental fStr mod
Destroyers: 32 + 3 + 18 + [13] = 66 * 3 = 198
Waghs: 32 + 3 + 18 + [12] = 65 * 3 = 195
Boreas: 32 + 3 + 6 + [11] = 52 * 3 = 156 XXXX Experimental above predicted.
Freesword's: 32 + 3 + 3 + [10] = 48 * 3 = 144
No weapon: 32 + 3 + 0 + [10] = 45 * 3 = 135

**** Confirm failure
XX - Boreas passed potential cap damage with modified fStr formula and 3.0 max pDiff. Max with WC/6 should have been 156. I hit 157 (not divisible by 3). Max pre-patch should have been 147.
XX - Freesword's cap appears to be 143, not 144. Not a multiple of 3. May be insufficient samples, but I'm getting tired.

new max pDiff (old fStr)
Destroyers: 32 + 3 + 18 + [10] = 63 * 3.15 = 198
Waghs: 32 + 3 + 18 + [9] = 62 * 3.15 = 195
Boreas: 32 + 3 + 6 + [8] = 49 * 3.15 = 154 XXXXX -- does not match experimental results. For this to work, base needs to be 50.
Freesword's: 32 + 3 + 3 + [8] = 46 * 3.15 = 144
No weapon: 32 + 3 + 0 + [8] = 43 * 3.15 = 135

**** Confirm failure
Boreas cesti don't match expected value. Off by a notable amount (157 experimental vs 154 predicted). Would match up if the cesti were a rank 1 weapon. Data error on SE's side?
Freesword's appear to cap at 143. May just not have gotten actual cap, but if 143 is indeed the cap the modified max pDiff doesn't fit.

Need to do: test Republic Knuckles (also +6 dmg) to see if they cap the same as Boreas.

Couple other possibilities:

H2H fStr hypothesis 3:
Consider total skill and weapon damage to determine WR.
Destroyers: 32 + 18 = 50. 50/9 = 5 + 8 = 13. Match.
Waghs: 32 + 13 = 45. 45/9 = 5 + 8 = 13. No match.
Boreas: 32 + 6 = 38. 38/9 = 4 + 8 = 12. Match if cap is 159.
Freesword's: 32 + 3 = 35 / 9 = 3 + 8 = 11. No match.
No weapon: 32 / 9 = 3 + 8 = 11. No match.

One more:

H2H fStr hypothesis 4:
Lower base N, use WR/6
Destroyers: 32 + 18 = 50 / 6 = 8. Total of 13; base = 5
Waghs: 32 + 13 = 45 / 6 = 7. Total of 12; base = 5
Boreas: 32 + 6 = 38 / 6 = 6. Total of 12?; base = 6 (questionable)
Freesword's: 32 + 3 = 35 / 6 = 5. Total of 10?; base = 5
No weapon: 32 + 0 = 32 / 6 = 5. Total of 10; base = 5

Might work, depending on Boreas Cesti. Max fStr would be 5 + TWR / 6, where TWR = total weapon rank from skill dmg + weapon. This would be a significant change in how it is handled from the previous system, though, bypassing the wrank on the weapon.