Damage change thread

[layoneil]

This is all great, but you can't honestly say you were losing more damage through misses with a 2H.

Most people aren't even saying we should get rid of it entirely, just the base stat portion.

i can honestly say SE devs are not going to make that change because doing separate calculations for a single base stat when nothing else is calculated that way is making things too unnecessarily complicated for too little actual benefit.

they're not going to do that extra work when they are comfortable with the overall outcome.

Stop talking about War/nin using GA, it just doesn't make sense, it is like Drk/sam using a one hand weapon, you get almost nothing out of your sub job.

damage mitigation when you have hate with zero cost to MP is not "almost nothing".

/NIN has been acceptable for any melee that regularly take hate since people stopped moaning about the integrity of MNK/WARs.

[Amele]

How is that /sam doesn't give you attack and accuracy? Hasso gives +10 accuracy and +5 str = 5 attack. Not to mention 10% haste and meditate and store TP. /nin gives you what, shadows, give deal if you can even steal hate with /nin against Drk/sam or Sam/war. Stop talking about War/nin using GA, it just doesn't make sense, it is like Drk/sam using a one hand weapon, you get almost nothing out of your sub job.

not sure where you got the impression that I was actually advocating it, but there's nothing wrong with using /nin as a defensive sub. mnks have been doing it for awhile now.

I simply stated that you *could* do it and get all the 2h benefits. You could do war/smn and get the 2h benefits (this might've been a better example)

as for accuracy+10 and str+5 from hasso /sam I'm aware, I think my (admittedly truncated) comment was taken out of context. /sam *doesn't* give you the str=att dex=acc bonus that Baha referenced in his 'bonuses of /sam' the great axe gave you those.

(edited in the quote and addressed it more fully)

[Nameless]

I am specifying War/nin with GA, not all job with /nin is bad. Mnk/war offers the best DD for Mnk but you don't use it cuz that's MP drain for mages so you use Mnk/nin, have no problem with that. Drk/war offers the best DD (arguably) but is also MP drain so you use Drk/sam, which offers great offensive side and good enough defensive side for pulling hate occasionally, you just don't go lower on offense for more defense with Drk/nin, /nin offers no offensive trait if you use 2hand.

Therefore, the same goes to Wars, War/drk is arguably the best offensive combo for them, but they don't do it unless zerging so you do War/sam. I don't see the reason why you should go even further to War/nin. Yes, you can probably save up one hit worth of MP per fight when you pull hate, cuz it takes some time to seigan and 3rd eye, but you can potentially kill faster so why not. I mean even if you have seigan on full time without taking advantage of hasso and go defensive mode the whole fight, /sam still offers store TP and meditate. Not to mention while you seigan and 3rd eye you get insane counter rate, hardly all defense. I really just don't see the point of /nin for War, it already gimped you so much that you really don't need to worry about hate.

There is a reason you really don't see alot of drk/nin anymore since the hasso/seigan patch. If you are going /nin, I think DW will probably do more for you than using a 2hand weapon to be honest. Hardly a useless sub for War, but very pointless if you are GAing.

[Lhexh]

I go salvage as WAR/NIN with GAxe, I will NEVER use any sub other than that in Salvage because consistent damage mitigation, especially on Chariots, is more important since I co-tank every boss as WAR. NIN sub is just as viable as /DRK,/SAM,/DRG for WAR even with GAxe, for all the same reasons it was viable for MNKs pre-update.

[Nameless]

I go salvage as WAR/NIN with GAxe, I will NEVER use any sub other than that in Salvage because consistent damage mitigation, especially on Chariots, is more important since I co-tank every boss as WAR. NIN sub is just as viable as /DRK,/SAM,/DRG for WAR even with GAxe, for all the same reasons it was viable for MNKs pre-update.

Point of mine is, if you want to /nin and do consistant damage, why don't you DW? Are you really doing more damage /nin with GA than DW? I am not sure if I am on crazy pill, but the last time I check, DW shines on DoT and offers consistant damage thus you tank LBC with Mnk/nin.

You are just not getting the point. It really is why would you use GA when /nin when you can DW and do more consistant and better damage? /sam is what makes GA shine and do more than DW, with /nin, DW still do better.

[Lhexh]

I do more damage with GAxe than Axe/Ridill now, so yes GAXe>DW even as /NIN.

Edit: My merits are also spec'd to be a DW axe/ridill WAR, and yet GAxe still outclasses it by a decent margin despite using /NIN.

[Delekii]

I go salvage as WAR/NIN with GAxe, I will NEVER use any sub other than that in Salvage because consistent damage mitigation, especially on Chariots, is more important since I co-tank every boss as WAR. NIN sub is just as viable as /DRK,/SAM,/DRG for WAR even with GAxe, for all the same reasons it was viable for MNKs pre-update.

Point of mine is, if you want to /nin and do consistant damage, why don't you DW? Are you really doing more damage /nin with GA than DW? I am not sure if I am on crazy pill, but the last time I check, DW shines on DoT and offers consistant damage thus you tank LBC with Mnk/nin.

You are just not getting the point. It really is why would you use GA when /nin when you can DW and do more consistant and better damage? /sam is what makes GA shine and do more than DW, with /nin, DW still do better.

Perhaps you didn't hear about the recent patch that buffed the fuck out of 2h weapons?

Been afk for a few weeks, have you?

[Nameless]

I go salvage as WAR/NIN with GAxe, I will NEVER use any sub other than that in Salvage because consistent damage mitigation, especially on Chariots, is more important since I co-tank every boss as WAR. NIN sub is just as viable as /DRK,/SAM,/DRG for WAR even with GAxe, for all the same reasons it was viable for MNKs pre-update.

Point of mine is, if you want to /nin and do consistant damage, why don't you DW? Are you really doing more damage /nin with GA than DW? I am not sure if I am on crazy pill, but the last time I check, DW shines on DoT and offers consistant damage thus you tank LBC with Mnk/nin.

You are just not getting the point. It really is why would you use GA when /nin when you can DW and do more consistant and better damage? /sam is what makes GA shine and do more than DW, with /nin, DW still do better.

Perhaps you didn't hear about the recent patch that buffed the fuck out of 2h weapons?

Been afk for a few weeks, have you?

Perhaps you didn't know that there was a patch on 9/11 that boosted the pdif cap of single hand weapon back to 3.0 when regular attack? or did you miss a few parse result that is showing that War/nin with ridill parse equally with sam/war and drk/sam? So if War/nin with GA > with ridill, then I can't imaging War/sam with GA, probably better than Sam/war? doubt it.

But if you say so then ok since you have tried both. But from everywhere I read, ridill war has a purpose again.

[Amele]

I go salvage as WAR/NIN with GAxe, I will NEVER use any sub other than that in Salvage because consistent damage mitigation, especially on Chariots, is more important since I co-tank every boss as WAR. NIN sub is just as viable as /DRK,/SAM,/DRG for WAR even with GAxe, for all the same reasons it was viable for MNKs pre-update.

Point of mine is, if you want to /nin and do consistant damage, why don't you DW? Are you really doing more damage /nin with GA than DW? I am not sure if I am on crazy pill, but the last time I check, DW shines on DoT and offers consistant damage thus you tank LBC with Mnk/nin.

You are just not getting the point. It really is why would you use GA when /nin when you can DW and do more consistant and better damage? /sam is what makes GA shine and do more than DW, with /nin, DW still do better.

lhexh addressed damage comparisons already.

you use gaxe war/nin on chariots because it generates less TP for the damage it deals. (it's why monk/nin is so good for tanking them.) and /nin will actually mitigate a significant amount of the damage they can deal

oh. and the "buff" was back to 1.6-2.4 (your crits were never not 3.0)

2h are the ones that can still hit 2.2-3.0 (2h cRatio caps at 2.5, 1h cRatio caps at 2.0 ) and I believe both can now crit as high as 3.2 (2h certainly can)

[Lhexh]

They didn't boost the single handed pdif cap back to 3.0. What they did was remove the hard 2.0 cap and make it "normal" like it was before the update so it was varying in the 1.6 to 2.4 range. Now they also made some other changes which people are still trying to identify exactly since the range seems a bit larger. It still doesn't compare to using GAxe with 2.6 average pdif with 2.2 to 3.0 range since I always run with Red Curry and BRD or COR buffs.

This last update weakened 2-Handers slightly at the top end because of the larger variation in pdif calculation, but it is still somewhat broken in the sense that elitely geared 2-Handers will trump 1-Handers by a sizeable margin but the update seems to have balanced the difference on people in the 1.x pdif range with the reduction in WS damage we are seeing.

[Nameless]

I go salvage as WAR/NIN with GAxe, I will NEVER use any sub other than that in Salvage because consistent damage mitigation, especially on Chariots, is more important since I co-tank every boss as WAR. NIN sub is just as viable as /DRK,/SAM,/DRG for WAR even with GAxe, for all the same reasons it was viable for MNKs pre-update.

Point of mine is, if you want to /nin and do consistant damage, why don't you DW? Are you really doing more damage /nin with GA than DW? I am not sure if I am on crazy pill, but the last time I check, DW shines on DoT and offers consistant damage thus you tank LBC with Mnk/nin.

You are just not getting the point. It really is why would you use GA when /nin when you can DW and do more consistant and better damage? /sam is what makes GA shine and do more than DW, with /nin, DW still do better.

lhexh addressed damage comparisons already.

you use gaxe war/nin on chariots because it generates less TP for the damage it deals. (it's why monk/nin is so good for tanking them.) and /nin will actually mitigate a significant amount of the damage they can deal

Well, if you are talking about giving mob less tp then yes, it has a purpose then and I understand that. But truely, I really doubt it does more damage. And obviously if you are tanking LBC, /nin is the choice, you just don't tank with /sam regardless what weapon you are using.

But we are kinda talking about extreme situation here aren't we? I can tell you pld/rdm is good for tanking JoL, but is it better than pld/nin in most situation? probably not. The point being in most situation, War/sam with GA > War/nin with DW > War/nin with GA. But again, if you can show parse result on merit that War/nin with GA > War/nin with DW, I will accept the defeat and change my opinion. As I said, so far the parses are showing that it is not the case, of course the parses after the 9/11 update.

[Nameless]

They didn't boost the single handed pdif cap back to 3.0. What they did was remove the hard 2.0 cap and make it "normal" like it was before the update so it was varying in the 1.6 to 2.4 range. Now they also made some other changes which people are still trying to identify exactly since the range seems a bit larger. It still doesn't compare to using GAxe with 2.6 average pdif with 2.2 to 3.0 range since I always run with Red Curry and BRD or COR buffs.

This last update weakened 2-Handers slightly at the top end because of the larger variation in pdif calculation, but it is still somewhat broken in the sense that elitely geared 2-Handers will trump 1-Handers by a sizeable margin but the update seems to have balanced the difference on people in the 1.x pdif range with the reduction in WS damage we are seeing.

I know the change they made. Are you sure it is still capped at 2.4 like pre 2hand update? I thought single hander can now regular hit close to their critical now with the proper attack and str. And I know that the randomness is greater than pre update now, but that has nothing to do with DW and 2 hand comparison since they are under the same change.

Sorry, nvm, was reading the four punches topic, and it seems like 1hand is at 1.6-2.5 range now. I kinda knew it was higher than pre 2hand update but didn't know it was just slightly higher than before.

[Lhexh]

Non-crits are hitting close to 2.5 now at the top and as low as 1.5 on the bottom end from the testing I did spamming Ridill on Too Weak mobs. The highest crit I could get was ~3.11 pdif with Ridill and ~3.14 with GAxe. Early guesses, and that's all it can be at this point since we are still assuming fstr/weaponrank didn't change whatsoever is that 1-Handers got a very minor boost to max pdif but the average still seemed to be 2.0. Now my sample size was under 100 swings so you have to take that with a grain of salt. It still leaves 1-handers with a 0.6 pdif deficit compared to GAxe if they are running with capped ratio.

If I am running at 2.0 or lower ratio then I have no doubt I would perform better with Axe/Ridill but it's soo rare I I'm not running with Curry+appropriate buffs. What subjob I decide to use will be determined by a requirement for damage mitigation but no matter the SJ choice GAxe will still parse best as long as I'm running capped ratio and that gap will increase if I re-merit myself for GAxe [ GAxe merits and Berserk/Doubleattack ].

[Nameless]

Non-crits are hitting close to 2.5 now at the top and as low as 1.5 on the bottom end from the testing I did spamming Ridill on Too Weak mobs. The highest crit I could get was ~3.11 pdif with Ridill and ~3.14 with GAxe. Early guesses, and that's all it can be at this point since we are still assuming fstr/weaponrank didn't change whatsoever is that 1-Handers got a very minor boost to max pdif but the average still seemed to be 2.0. Now my sample size was under 100 swings so you have to take that with a grain of salt. It still leaves 1-handers with a 0.6 pdif deficit compared to GAxe if they are running with capped ratio.

If I am running at 2.0 or lower ratio then I have no doubt I would perform better with Axe/Ridill but it's soo rare I I'm not running with Curry+appropriate buffs. What subjob I decide to use will be determined by a requirement for damage mitigation but no matter the SJ choice GAxe will still parse best as long as I'm running capped ratio and that gap will increase if I re-merit myself for GAxe [ GAxe merits and Berserk/Doubleattack ].

Yea, in cap situation i guess 2handers will always out perform 1handers now a day it seems. But the gap between War/nin with GA and War/nin with DW ridill was so huge pretty 2hand update, do you really think the change in 0.6 pdif is really making GA that dominate? I understand that for LBC you don't want to DW to give it extra tp, but have you parse and compare it in merit situation? I still kinda think they might be the same just for the reason that ridill war was sooooo much better pre update.

Turn back to page and see the Ryco's parse result. You see the War/nin with ridill had no disadvantage against two stacked up Sam/war and Drk/sam. So if what you said was true, War/sam with GA or War/nin with GA will win even more?

[Amele]

I go salvage as WAR/NIN with GAxe, I will NEVER use any sub other than that in Salvage because consistent damage mitigation, especially on Chariots, is more important since I co-tank every boss as WAR. NIN sub is just as viable as /DRK,/SAM,/DRG for WAR even with GAxe, for all the same reasons it was viable for MNKs pre-update.

Point of mine is, if you want to /nin and do consistant damage, why don't you DW? Are you really doing more damage /nin with GA than DW? I am not sure if I am on crazy pill, but the last time I check, DW shines on DoT and offers consistant damage thus you tank LBC with Mnk/nin.

You are just not getting the point. It really is why would you use GA when /nin when you can DW and do more consistant and better damage? /sam is what makes GA shine and do more than DW, with /nin, DW still do better.

lhexh addressed damage comparisons already.

you use gaxe war/nin on chariots because it generates less TP for the damage it deals. (it's why monk/nin is so good for tanking them.) and /nin will actually mitigate a significant amount of the damage they can deal

Well, if you are talking about giving mob less tp then yes, it has a purpose then and I understand that. But truely, I really doubt it does more damage. And obviously if you are tanking LBC, /nin is the choice, you just don't tank with /sam regardless what weapon you are using.

But we are kinda talking about extreme situation here aren't we? I can tell you pld/rdm is good for tanking JoL, but is it better than pld/nin in most situation? probably not. The point being in most situation, War/sam with GA > War/nin with DW > War/nin with GA. But again, if you can show parse result on merit that War/nin with GA > War/nin with DW, I will accept the defeat and change my opinion. As I said, so far the parses are showing that it is not the case, of course the parses after the 9/11 update.

right, but your statement was that you shouldn't ever war/nin with gaxe.

which is better in merit depends more on your personal setup. in lhexh's case, gear and buff choices combine to make gaxe > dw even war/nin (because of how high pdif can go on gaxe now)

if your cRatio is > 2.0 then you should seriously consider using a gaxe, regardless of sub.

if your cRatio is in the 1.x range, then it'll depend alot on accuracy and you should strongly consider going war/nin esp. if you have a ridill.

@ most recent post: you're forgetting other changes; 2h gets a higher hit rate and gaxe weaponskills were improved.

[Nameless]

I go salvage as WAR/NIN with GAxe, I will NEVER use any sub other than that in Salvage because consistent damage mitigation, especially on Chariots, is more important since I co-tank every boss as WAR. NIN sub is just as viable as /DRK,/SAM,/DRG for WAR even with GAxe, for all the same reasons it was viable for MNKs pre-update.

Point of mine is, if you want to /nin and do consistant damage, why don't you DW? Are you really doing more damage /nin with GA than DW? I am not sure if I am on crazy pill, but the last time I check, DW shines on DoT and offers consistant damage thus you tank LBC with Mnk/nin.

You are just not getting the point. It really is why would you use GA when /nin when you can DW and do more consistant and better damage? /sam is what makes GA shine and do more than DW, with /nin, DW still do better.

lhexh addressed damage comparisons already.

you use gaxe war/nin on chariots because it generates less TP for the damage it deals. (it's why monk/nin is so good for tanking them.) and /nin will actually mitigate a significant amount of the damage they can deal

Well, if you are talking about giving mob less tp then yes, it has a purpose then and I understand that. But truely, I really doubt it does more damage. And obviously if you are tanking LBC, /nin is the choice, you just don't tank with /sam regardless what weapon you are using.

But we are kinda talking about extreme situation here aren't we? I can tell you pld/rdm is good for tanking JoL, but is it better than pld/nin in most situation? probably not. The point being in most situation, War/sam with GA > War/nin with DW > War/nin with GA. But again, if you can show parse result on merit that War/nin with GA > War/nin with DW, I will accept the defeat and change my opinion. As I said, so far the parses are showing that it is not the case, of course the parses after the 9/11 update.

right, but your statement was that you shouldn't ever war/nin with gaxe.

which is better in merit depends more on your personal setup. in lhexh's case, gear and buff choices combine to make gaxe > dw even war/nin (because of how high pdif can go on gaxe now)

if your cRatio is > 2.0 then you should seriously consider using a gaxe, regardless of sub.

if your cRatio is in the 1.x range, then it'll depend alot on accuracy and you should strongly consider going war/nin esp. if you have a ridill.

@ most recent post: you're forgetting other changes; 2h gets a higher hit rate and gaxe weaponskills were improved.

I see your point. May you go back to page 1 and see the parse Ryko posted? So war with GA can now smoke sam/war and drk/sam regardless sub? I am just kinda shocked.

[Lhexh]

Well looking at that parse on page 1, I don't think anyone there had ratio over 2.0. Those WS averages are just too low for capped ratio so I think everyone falls into the 1.x pdif range which is where this latest update seems to have corrected the balance issue the most.

[LD]

This is all great, but you can't honestly say you were losing more damage through misses with a 2H.

Most people aren't even saying we should get rid of it entirely, just the base stat portion.

i can honestly say SE devs are not going to make that change because doing separate calculations for a single base stat when nothing else is calculated that way is making things too unnecessarily complicated for too little actual benefit.

they're not going to do that extra work when they are comfortable with the overall outcome.

Then it has to be taken out entirely. You don't need it.
Everyone is agreed that 2H should be more powerful on HNM, but not necessarily more accurate. If the difference in merits isn't that big of a deal, then taking it away shouldn't mean anything either.

[Nameless]

Well looking at that parse on page 1, I don't think anyone there had ratio over 2.0. Those WS averages are just too low for capped ratio so I think everyone falls into the 1.x pdif range which is where this latest update seems to have corrected the balance issue the most.

They had double attack songs and the 2handers were eating meat (don't think you can get more optimal than that on a merit party with sam subbing war). Both 2handers are very very well geared. If they can't reach 2.0 ratio on merit mob, not to mention HNM like LBC, I don't see it is that big of a chance that anyone can in the same setting. But like I said before, on LBC you don't want to feed it tp so /nin tanking it with GA is ideal. I just don't think it is that practical in merit party tho.

[Lhexh]

It's very hard to cap ratio on greater colibiri because you are are eating cheap food [ they said that parse was on birds ]. I can't cap ratio on WAR without red curry as part of my base attack, so eating miths ( which was probably the choice of meat for that camp or maybe subs/siskebabi if they splurged ) will leave you well short.

No one parse will ever give you the full scope of which weapon/subjob choice is best for all situations. Ryko used Rid/Joy ( +25% piercing bonus offhand ) with a dex build/sushi for that camp. It was a very smart choice for the camp and the results spoke for themselves, but if he had tried to use meat with axe/rid with that song choice he probably would have been lost by quit a bit.

That's what this update has done more than anything else, is force a re-thinking of gear setups, subjobs, weapon choices, not only for camp but also for party members. Madrigal, March*2, Minuet isn't cookie cutter anymore because Madrigal is useless for most 2-Handers but almost a necesity for certain 1-Handers so you need to adjust based on who else is in your party almost as much as what you are killing.