Damage change thread

[Beckwin]

I was on drk/sam in that parse using Roast Pipira, so still pretty high attack but not capped. TBH I think capped attack is something people talk about a lot but seldom achieve it, but we still get some overreaction about it when talking about the math. I was pretty happy with the near 200 melee avg as /sam, and guillos in reality were a bit higher than the average indicates but I'm not the type to hold WS at 15% life if we've got a mob lined up.

[RKenshin]

I go salvage as WAR/NIN with GAxe, I will NEVER use any sub other than that in Salvage because consistent damage mitigation, especially on Chariots, is more important since I co-tank every boss as WAR. NIN sub is just as viable as /DRK,/SAM,/DRG for WAR even with GAxe, for all the same reasons it was viable for MNKs pre-update.

Point of mine is, if you want to /nin and do consistant damage, why don't you DW? Are you really doing more damage /nin with GA than DW? I am not sure if I am on crazy pill, but the last time I check, DW shines on DoT and offers consistant damage thus you tank LBC with Mnk/nin.

You are just not getting the point. It really is why would you use GA when /nin when you can DW and do more consistant and better damage? /sam is what makes GA shine and do more than DW, with /nin, DW still do better.

MNK wasn't used for Chariot tanks just because of the high DoT/tanking ability, but also the fact they keep TP spam rather low, making it ideal for situations where MP is very limited. A WAR/NIN using Axe/Ridill would be more dangerous in regards to how fast they feed it TP.

Even before this patch we'd normally have WARs (if any) use GA on the boss to help reduce TP gain.

Perhaps you didn't know that there was a patch on 9/11 that boosted the pdif cap of single hand weapon back to 3.0 when regular attack? or did you miss a few parse result that is showing that War/nin with ridill parse equally with sam/war and drk/sam? So if War/nin with GA > with ridill, then I can't imaging War/sam with GA, probably better than Sam/war? doubt it.

But if you say so then ok since you have tried both. But from everywhere I read, ridill war has a purpose again.

The parses I've seen still show a decked out 2h user is slightly better than a decked out 1h user, especially in the case of SAM.

And, Lhexh has Bravura... It isn't really as simple as saying WAR/NIN with GA > WAR/NIN with Axe/Rid as a classificcation for all WARs based on his results when he has relic GA. Although I'd still wager that properly equiped using GA is still better. SAM sub doesn't put WARs on a whole new level of damage over WAR/NIN, all it really does is give them a higher number of WS (considering Hasso isn't normally a viable option to use).

[Lhexh]

I was on drk/sam in that parse using Roast Pipira, so still pretty high attack but not capped. TBH I think capped attack is something people talk about a lot but seldom achieve it, but we still get some overreaction about it when talking about the math. I was pretty happy with the near 200 melee avg as /sam, and guillos in reality were a bit higher than the average indicates but I'm not the type to hold WS at 15% life if we've got a mob lined up.

Yea, most people don't run around with capped attack. In fact most of the people who post here probably sit around 1.2 to 1.5 range in most the instances they parse which is why before this last update there was such large discrepancies in opinion on how broken the update was. I won't try to hide the fact that I am an absolute elitist when it comes to XP, Salvage, etc so the situation I put myself in will obviously not reflect everyone else's. Running around with 800+ attack with Berserk down is pretty common for ruk and I now [ I remember a party Ruk had where he was 999 attack without berserk <3 COR+DRK ], because we like to take advantage of the update changes as much as possible and can afford to waste gil doing so.

[layoneil]

Everyone is agreed that 2H should be more powerful on HNM, but not necessarily more accurate.

i don't know who everyone is but i never thought that.

If the difference in merits isn't that big of a deal, then taking it away shouldn't mean anything either.

i said "overall outcome", how does that equate to "difference in merits"?

the difference in merits and non-HNMs was the problem because those problems persists in the Dynamis, Limbus, Einherjar, Assault style events.

[Ryko]

Esane Hagun SAM/WAR still needs haidate and Haste on his hands.
Hwang Rune Chopper WAR/SAM
Rykoshet Hagun SAM/WAR used thunder ring, pixie earring, lighting bow +1 askar hands and osode for tp build.


http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/4788/sam2warsw2.jpg

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

Did hwang have some sort of refresh? >_>

[Zilong]

Hmmm, for a DEX build, 15% critrate is kinda...low.

[Plow]

Did hwang have some sort of refresh? >_>

sanction?

[Max™]

Hmmm, for a DEX build, 15% critrate is kinda...low.

Usually with a crit build, you have some sort of Crit+ Weapon, Destroyers, Senj/Fudo, Rampager/Claymore.

Sams options in that regard are...less than stellar, and no crit based WS either.

Hmmm, do parsers pick up on WS crits? Doesn't seem like there would be a way too, aside from recording every WS and working out the damage ranges for crit/non crit, etc.

Gotta figure out how to test what Raging Rushes Crit TP mod at 100% is, think Im gonna go dig up Naga's tests and see what he did to work this out.

[Ryko]

Did hwang have some sort of refresh? >_>

Yes sanction and the spell, vile's on top of that.

Hmmm, for a DEX build, 15% critrate is kinda...low.

With a dex crit build every point you're missing counts.

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/7...llparseil2.jpg

Beckwin DRK/SAM scythe, pretty sure using hasso full time.
Rykoshet SAM/WAR Hasso full time testing crits again.
Seriha SAM/WAR, used seigan a lot, isn't really used to going full out firing at 100%, probably due to playing with pickups too much where that tends to get you killed.

This was just like a 30-40 minute tidbit of exp aprsed but the only difference in my dex here was pipira, even so 3 points of dex shows. Gonna be swapping a spike necklace in likely after this.

Note: I ended the parse the second I died, which was 3 mobs before we actually ended, so technically beckwin won but I don't know by how much.

[Max™]

With a dex crit build every point you're missing counts.

Incredibly truthful words.

Theres a number you're shooting for, if you can't artificially bump your crits with Crit+ items, you gotta pop into those tiers, 100, 110, 115, 120 I think were the noticeable changes.

[LD]

Everyone is agreed that 2H should be more powerful on HNM, but not necessarily more accurate.

i don't know who everyone is but i never thought that.

If the difference in merits isn't that big of a deal, then taking it away shouldn't mean anything either.

i said "overall outcome", how does that equate to "difference in merits"?

the difference in merits and non-HNMs was the problem because those problems persists in the Dynamis, Limbus, Einherjar, Assault style events.

I hit both points in that post, and you still aren't arguing that you actually need it, because you can't.

[Amele]

I'm pretty sure I did this at least once before (maybe even in this thread?)

short version of argument:

without the high hit rate, it is difficult to push your cRatio a meaningful distance above 2.0 (2.0 being in the area of ~700 attack depending on mob) and still maintaining a decent hit rate on the parse.

with the high hit rate, you can stack on the attack gear and push past 2.0 and actually see the benefits on the increased pdif cap slide; which is where 2handers actually make up the ground from not having doubled fstr effect.

without the accuracy boost, most (non-super elite) 2 handers would be right where they were before hand, sitting in the ~1.2-1.6 pdif range and still not swinging fast enough to make up for it.

there's still choices in what gear a 2hander uses and the combined effects (now that the randomization is working correctly) of the changes did a pretty damn good job of creating parity; and SE also generated interest in a wider variety of gear than has been in a very long time in this game to boot.

[Plow]

SE also generated interest in a wider variety of gear than has been in a very long time in this game to boot.

maybe, but they also basically eliminated all potentially competitive pieces to ebody

[Charismatic]

SE also generated interest in a wider variety of gear than has been in a very long time in this game to boot.

maybe, but they also basically eliminated all potentially competitive pieces to ebody

I don't know anyone who had and e.body and was using something else (or even interested in using something else) instead of it... I don't really see that as a big deal at all.

[Plow]

SE also generated interest in a wider variety of gear than has been in a very long time in this game to boot.

maybe, but they also basically eliminated all potentially competitive pieces to ebody

I don't know anyone who had and e.body and was using something else (or even interested in using something else) instead of it... I don't really see that as a big deal at all.

plastron and ares were decent options until they made it so e body basically eliminates the need for any other acc or dex whatsoever for a 2h on damn near anything

[Beckwin]

uh, plastron/ares were pretty impractical to pull off in merit. now any 3/5+aces+homam+pcc can sport one np, and homam/aces are still pretty solid pieces to wear for haste. There's also bomblet if you don't want to buy a core just for meritting, not to mention 5 acc on the rajas ring.

[Plow]

Basically what I mean was kind of in relation to what he said about opening up new options.


Ebody now pretty much means you can do damn near whatever the hell you want with every other slot, ares and plastron (and byrnie for that matter) still require pretty specific setups to really be effective.

[Max™]

The difference now is, Ebody was always awesome.

Now, other things are viable too.

Say you have a bunch of Acc gear already, PCC, Bomblet, but no Ebody or Berk+1.

Now you can swap to a Askar body, Byrnie, Plastron, Are's and not lose out on Acc, while gaining the huge buffs some of those pieces have.

Are's is 36 goddamn attack in one slot now, it went from lolare's, ws onry with specific builds, to "wow, holy crap, I could keep my PCC, ditch this, swap this item to that, lose no acc, and gain 10, 20, 30 str and gobs of attack, w00t."

[Plow]

The difference now is, Ebody was always awesome.

Now, other things are viable too.

Say you have a bunch of Acc gear already, PCC, Bomblet, but no Ebody or Berk+1.

Now you can swap to a Askar body, Byrnie, Plastron, Are's and not lose out on Acc, while gaining the huge buffs some of those pieces have.

Are's is 36 goddamn attack in one slot now, it went from lolare's, ws onry with specific builds, to "wow, holy crap, I could keep my PCC, ditch this, swap this item to that, lose no acc, and gain 10, 20, 30 str and gobs of attack, w00t."

before:

ares + pcc + sniper+1 = 30 att 17 acc 12 str

ebody + gorget + lolflame ring = 29.5 att 27 acc 15 str


after:

Ares + pcc + sniper+1 = 36 att 17 acc 12 str

ebody + gorget + flame ring = 37 att 32 acc 15 str


It just amplified the difference some.


I'm not arguing that it didn't improve the viability of ares/plastron without ebody, just that it really distanced it from the field, especially combined with the fact that so little acc is needed now that it can pretty much cover all you need on its own.