Damage change thread

[Admo]

funny how SE made heavy weapons more accurate than light ones

Funny how people are still saying this when it holds no water.

So your 2 handed weapons dont give you a 1 dex = 1 acc ratio? Mine do.

No, the point is people are still bringing up the fact that 2h weapons are more accurate in a fantasy game.

[Isiolia]

I dunno, I think a lot of people were saying that DEX = ACC on 2h was broken...and it's still here.

I'm pretty sure that if you take the dex=acc out from 2h, they'll go back to losing hard. Let 2h eat meat freely, and let 1h have their DW speed.

One handed weapons do not inherently mean Dual Wield though. DW's speed does make up for the ATT/ACC loss some, but in any other 1h situation you're looking at basically being penalized for not using 2h, which isn't fair.

Funny how for 4 years light weapons did more dmg than heavy weapons and no one found it funny.

I recall seeing many people say that the equations were off for 2h. But making 2h base damage do what it should next to 1h base damage is not the same as giving 2h a couple BRD song handicap.

IMO, it'd be better to do the 1 STR = 1 ATT on 2h, 1 DEX = 1 ACC on 1h, and 2 DEX = 1 ACC 2 STR = 1 ATT when using dual wield (or H2H). That'd give each setup its own perks of ATT, ACC, or speed.

[Admo]

One handed weapons do not inherently mean Dual Wield though. DW's speed does make up for the ATT/ACC loss some, but in any other 1h situation you're looking at basically being penalized for not using 2h, which isn't fair.

It's fair when you are giving up your A+ 2h weapon to dual wield.

edit: I think THF is really the only one getting screwed over here.

[Nameless]

I dunno, I think a lot of people were saying that DEX = ACC on 2h was broken...and it's still here.

I'm pretty sure that if you take the dex=acc out from 2h, they'll go back to losing hard. Let 2h eat meat freely, and let 1h have their DW speed.

One handed weapons do not inherently mean Dual Wield though. DW's speed does make up for the ATT/ACC loss some, but in any other 1h situation you're looking at basically being penalized for not using 2h, which isn't fair.

Funny how for 4 years light weapons did more dmg than heavy weapons and no one found it funny.

I recall seeing many people say that the equations were off for 2h. But making 2h base damage do what it should next to 1h base damage is not the same as giving 2h a couple BRD song handicap.

IMO, it'd be better to do the 1 STR = 1 ATT on 2h, 1 DEX = 1 ACC on 1h, and 2 DEX = 1 ACC 2 STR = 1 ATT when using dual wield (or H2H). That'd give each setup its own perks of ATT, ACC, or speed.

You will be surprised that how little the accuracy bonus really is. Let's say you have 80 Dex, you get an extra 40 accuracy on top of your combat skill accuracy and the original 40 accuracy + some equip accuracy. That's 40 on top of about 350 accuracy. That's about a 11% increase, not really game breaking consider how 1 hand weapon users normally attack about 2-3 time for 120 each when two hander attack once for about 150-200. That's an even bigger advantage.

While the two hand weapon being more accurate doesn't make sense, 1 hand weapon being able to dash out 75% of 2hand weapon's per hit damage doesn't make sense too when the two hand weapon has twice as much base damage.

I just really don't think it is like ground breaking or something for ppl to keep talking about it. I mean SE clearly said that they are going to make attribute"S" more effective for two hand weapon user, which means it is not just str. So I don't know why ppl still think it is a mistake.

Also, on top of that, you ever think perhaps SE is focusing on WS accuracy for 2 handers. All those one hit WSs have horrible accuracy. While 1 handers are better at putting up DoT, 2 handers really need to shine in WS department to catch up. In addition to that, missing one regular hit for 2 hander means a whole lot more than 1 handers missing 1 regular hit given that our damage already isn't twice as much. If you think it is fair, something wrong with you.

[Vishnevskiy]

Personally getting out parsed by near 10% by a Samurai vs 2 maxed out war (one with no hauberk though) is too much

I could see them making it so that its equal but 10% is huge, but I guess you could say his sub was WAR and thats why because I am sure a MNK/WAR could maybe generate 5% more then a Ridill WAR. The problem with Samurai is they can sub WAR and still have Seigan which is very good.

I love the fact that SAM are so strong for HNM related events, but its a little bit of an insult to make it do so much more damage compared to someone who has gear thats somewhat hard to get. If I want my gear to be made trash over time I could go play WOW.

[Vail]

I dunno, I think a lot of people were saying that DEX = ACC on 2h was broken...and it's still here.

I'm pretty sure that if you take the dex=acc out from 2h, they'll go back to losing hard. Let 2h eat meat freely, and let 1h have their DW speed.

One handed weapons do not inherently mean Dual Wield though. DW's speed does make up for the ATT/ACC loss some, but in any other 1h situation you're looking at basically being penalized for not using 2h, which isn't fair.

Funny how for 4 years light weapons did more dmg than heavy weapons and no one found it funny.

I recall seeing many people say that the equations were off for 2h. But making 2h base damage do what it should next to 1h base damage is not the same as giving 2h a couple BRD song handicap.

IMO, it'd be better to do the 1 STR = 1 ATT on 2h, 1 DEX = 1 ACC on 1h, and 2 DEX = 1 ACC 2 STR = 1 ATT when using dual wield (or H2H). That'd give each setup its own perks of ATT, ACC, or speed.

You will be surprised that how little the accuracy bonus really is. Let's say you have 80 Dex, you get an extra 40 accuracy on top of your combat skill accuracy and the original 40 accuracy + some equip accuracy. That's 40 on top of about 350 accuracy. That's about a 11% increase, not really game breaking consider how 1 hand weapon users normally attack about 2-3 time for 120 each when two hander attack once for about 150-200. That's an even bigger advantage.

While the two hand weapon being more accurate doesn't make sense, 1 hand weapon being able to dash out 75% of 2hand weapon's per hit damage doesn't make sense too when the two hand weapon has twice as much base damage.

I just really don't think it is like ground breaking or something for ppl to keep talking about it. I mean SE clearly said that they are going to make attribute"S" more effective for two hand weapon user, which means it is not just str. So I don't know why ppl still think it is a mistake.

Also, on top of that, you ever think perhaps SE is focusing on WS accuracy for 2 handers. All those one hit WSs have horrible accuracy. While 1 handers are better at putting up DoT, 2 handers really need to shine in WS department to catch up. In addition to that, missing one regular hit for 2 hander means a whole lot more than 1 handers missing 1 regular hit given that our damage already isn't twice as much. If you think it is fair, something wrong with you.

considering how the first 190 accuracy is negitgable at lv75 vs merit mobs/HNMs (lv 1, 0 skill will have about the same hit rate as the lv58 with 190 skill vs lv85+ monsters)

so it's more like 160 (the excess over 190) with an aditional 40, that's a 25% increase, not 11%, so yeah I think it's alittle game breaking no matter how you try to slice it

[Black]

+40 acc is not little
and ya Heavy weapons should be less accurate than light ones but ofcourse more dmg

[Nameless]

Personally getting out parsed by near 10% by a Samurai vs 2 maxed out war (one with no hauberk though) is too much

I could see them making it so that its equal but 10% is huge, but I guess you could say his sub was WAR and thats why because I am sure a MNK/WAR could maybe generate 5% more then a Ridill WAR. The problem with Samurai is they can sub WAR and still have Seigan which is very good.

I love the fact that SAM are so strong for HNM related events, but its a little bit of an insult to make it do so much more damage compared to someone who has gear thats somewhat hard to get. If I want my gear to be made trash over time I could go play WOW.

Yea, very true. The advantage with Sam is that they are free to /war and still have the ability to avoid some instant hate they grab with seigan 3rd eye. If Drk sub war, we can only stand there and watch ourself die. Dread spike is hardly an emergency tool, you kinda need to anticipate hate and use it before you spike your damage, and it has 0 use when mobs use TP move.

Only tool we have to match berserk is souleater, but it is too much MP. And Sam still got double attack from /war. Pretty much impossible to match them.

[layoneil]

Personally getting out parsed by near 10% by a Samurai vs 2 maxed out war (one with no hauberk though) is too much

Great Axe WAR/SAM is "maxed out". /NIN means you're going defensive and you're not supposed to parse as high as the DDs that are going all out.

so yeah I think it's alittle game breaking no matter how you try to slice it

no individual element is game breaking when the combined result isn't.

[Nameless]

I dunno, I think a lot of people were saying that DEX = ACC on 2h was broken...and it's still here.

I'm pretty sure that if you take the dex=acc out from 2h, they'll go back to losing hard. Let 2h eat meat freely, and let 1h have their DW speed.

One handed weapons do not inherently mean Dual Wield though. DW's speed does make up for the ATT/ACC loss some, but in any other 1h situation you're looking at basically being penalized for not using 2h, which isn't fair.

Funny how for 4 years light weapons did more dmg than heavy weapons and no one found it funny.

I recall seeing many people say that the equations were off for 2h. But making 2h base damage do what it should next to 1h base damage is not the same as giving 2h a couple BRD song handicap.

IMO, it'd be better to do the 1 STR = 1 ATT on 2h, 1 DEX = 1 ACC on 1h, and 2 DEX = 1 ACC 2 STR = 1 ATT when using dual wield (or H2H). That'd give each setup its own perks of ATT, ACC, or speed.

You will be surprised that how little the accuracy bonus really is. Let's say you have 80 Dex, you get an extra 40 accuracy on top of your combat skill accuracy and the original 40 accuracy + some equip accuracy. That's 40 on top of about 350 accuracy. That's about a 11% increase, not really game breaking consider how 1 hand weapon users normally attack about 2-3 time for 120 each when two hander attack once for about 150-200. That's an even bigger advantage.

While the two hand weapon being more accurate doesn't make sense, 1 hand weapon being able to dash out 75% of 2hand weapon's per hit damage doesn't make sense too when the two hand weapon has twice as much base damage.

I just really don't think it is like ground breaking or something for ppl to keep talking about it. I mean SE clearly said that they are going to make attribute"S" more effective for two hand weapon user, which means it is not just str. So I don't know why ppl still think it is a mistake.

Also, on top of that, you ever think perhaps SE is focusing on WS accuracy for 2 handers. All those one hit WSs have horrible accuracy. While 1 handers are better at putting up DoT, 2 handers really need to shine in WS department to catch up. In addition to that, missing one regular hit for 2 hander means a whole lot more than 1 handers missing 1 regular hit given that our damage already isn't twice as much. If you think it is fair, something wrong with you.

considering how the first 190 accuracy is negitgable at lv75 vs merit mobs/HNMs (lv 1, 0 skill will have about the same hit rate as the lv58 with 190 skill vs lv85+ monsters)

so it's more like 160 (the excess over 190) with an aditional 40, that's a 25% increase, not 11%, so yeah I think it's alittle game breaking no matter how you try to slice it

Point is 2hand weapon damage was not even 25% more than one hand user, so no matter how you try to make sense of it, it was game breaking for 1handers. Not to mention most of their weapon got more bonus stats than 2hands.

[Nameless]

Yea, i see alot of war/nin with GA, not sure what up with that. Need to learn how to /sam lol. Not easy at first, but /nin is absolutely missing the point for GA. Probably most War just go /nin for DW still but want to mess around with GA, and find it not as good, cuz they are subbing /nin.

[Admo]

considering how the first 190 accuracy is negitgable at lv75 vs merit mobs/HNMs (lv 1, 0 skill will have about the same hit rate as the lv58 with 190 skill vs lv85+ monsters)

so it's more like 160 (the excess over 190) with an aditional 40, that's a 25% increase, not 11%, so yeah I think it's alittle game breaking no matter how you try to slice it

Using your logic, then someone with 180 skill just got buffed to 220 accuracy which is 30 accuracy divided by 0 (because you are equating 190 skill is 0 accuracy) which gives us... yah... I would still have to go with the 10% increase.

People need to stop whining about this change. It's over and done with and it's not going to change back.

[skurlover]

I dunno, I think a lot of people were saying that DEX = ACC on 2h was broken...and it's still here.

My biggest problem with the DEX=ACC change is that it fundamentality changed the price on accuracy gear overnight. It was a major change in the balance of the game that had a huge side effect on the economy as well. We don't need more deflation on *once* wanted items this way.

[Nagamaki]

40 acc is 20% effective acc.

It doesn't matter what the base is, acc is calculated by substraction not as a ratio.

If you don't have a clue about game mechanics, don't talk about game mechanics.

Anyone that denies that the accuracy bonus is a huge factor is a complete idiot, now its certainly possible to still get balanced damage output with the acc change, but basically it means different weapon types have radically different needs in terms of stat enhancements (gear, songs, food).

[layoneil]

Anyone that denies that the accuracy bonus is a huge factor is a complete idiot, now its certainly possible to still get balanced damage output with the acc change

agree and agree.

but basically it means different weapon types have radically different needs in terms of stat enhancements (gear, songs, food).

is that supposed to be bad? i always thought it was bad when everyone used Mithkabobs and than they changed food and most everyone used Sushi.

[Beckwin]

I don't doubt a Drk/war can do better damage than Drk/sam

I do, actually. drk/war is just too slow when you're in a good merit party and eating some decent food. drk/sam in 17% haste gear with pipira and double minuets has me sitting around 680-715ish? atk. Throwing Berserk on top of that for 3 out of 5 minutes isn't as impacting as you might think when you're fighting DiaII'd merit fodder, so you're really more or less just looking at 10% double attack versus 10% haste, some (superfluous until we hammer out some specific merit builds) acc, meditate, and enough store-tp to make for a quicker trip to 100tp. Plus there's an extra layer of defense should you ever need it.

[Ryko]

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/3287/parse1az8.jpg

Dual sword WAR/NIN
SAM/WAR (his damage fell off when he was screwing with soboro)
DRK/SAM

2 handers used meat, I used sushi. Double marches/minuets.

Wow, balance, who would have thought?

Interesting results, question - Why did the sam only have 11 more WS than the drk? The lower average weapon skill makes a lot of sense if he was fooling around with soboro but the 11 more WS doesn't.

Was his gear comparable to the two of you?

He's fully geared/merited so I'm not exactly sure why he didnt get off more weapon skills in general, maybe he just didn't fire one if a mob was low or something.

[Riel]

So now us dual wielding jobs that were already overlooked because lolridill is soooo great are now completely fucked on invites I guess. Great. At least the jug pets I can't use because noone will merit with me last 90min now.

[yrpaine]

Yea, i see alot of war/nin with GA, not sure what up with that. Need to learn how to /sam lol. Not easy at first, but /nin is absolutely missing the point for GA. Probably most War just go /nin for DW still but want to mess around with GA, and find it not as good, cuz they are subbing /nin.

some people like their mages to have mp after a few fights. it's not all about max dmg all of the time when meriting, it's keeping the party going.

[Darkevolution]

Yea, i see alot of war/nin with GA, not sure what up with that. Need to learn how to /sam lol. Not easy at first, but /nin is absolutely missing the point for GA. Probably most War just go /nin for DW still but want to mess around with GA, and find it not as good, cuz they are subbing /nin.

some people like their mages to have mp after a few fights. it's not all about max dmg all of the time when meriting, it's keeping the party going.

If anything it offers more options for war; if you'd rather a more "defensive" set you still have DW and if you want more of an offensive set you have /sam +GA. Depending on the party set-up/quality of ppl you can pick what fits best.