Damage change thread

[Amele]

you could probably get to 120 if you sacrificed other stats for it. I know sam can get to +60 dex without resorting to love halberd + torque (another +12)
askar head, pixie earring, osode, myo+1 hands, thunder/rajas, warwolf, haidate, sao+1 feet which is 128 with base dex at 75.

and gaxe/war certainly can get that high.

this would max your crit rate, too, I think. (at least it should against g.colibri. maybe not all mamool ja)

Wow.. you learn something new everyday.. but.. do ppl actually do that? I mean practically you would never melee in most of that gear right? more like the best you could get (askar head(4)/pixie earring(3)/myo+1(7)/rings(10)/hidate(15)) is about 115?

well, there's little reason not to use the osode honestly if you're going for a crit build. (even if you aren't using it, +6 from haub+1)

so you're still over 120. (68+45~49 = 132~137) and you still have 13% haste (15% with dusk feet, 16% with fuma)

to answer the question, yes. people were and are actually experimenting with builds like this: dex in excess of about 130 (depending on merit mob) caps your crit rate around something like ~24%.

[layoneil]

There are a good number of jobs in the game with their highest melee skill being a 1h weapon. Other than NIN, they won't necessarily have DW at their disposal.

by "a good number of jobs" you mean BLU, BST and THF or are you trying to count PLD, WHM, RDM and BRD too?

BLUs should be dependent on their spells.
BSTs should be dependent on their pets.
THFs are kind of screwed but mostly not because of the damage but because SA and TA are being subbed with pretty good effect by other jobs.

the fixes for these jobs lie in places other than adjusting 1h weapon damage.

[Amele]

mandau thf/war are the only ones who really have any space to complain about 1h vs. dual wield damage, honestly. (and even then I'm not sure how hard SE'd listen, given how small a playerbase that is)

[Nameless]

The accuracy tests I used to produce the accuracy formula are quite straightforward, 40 accuracy will increase a swing's chance to connect by 20% from what it would be without, the only cases where this isn't true is at the caps, since those are hardcoded limits you can't go above or below.

Its a very very simple formula, in a parse things like evasion buffs/debuffs and acc buffs/debuffs will throw it off a bit since different combinations will send you past the effective accuracy caps. So in practice if you were already near cap you don't gain 20%, but that's kinda self-evident, when acc% is capped adding acc+ doesn't do anything.

Sorry if I sounded rude in my earlier post, nothing against you and I am all for knowing the proper game machanic and stuff like damage formula and haste etc. I mean I was one of the few ppl who found out the haste cap on magic and song as being 43.3% (actually the exact number was from me originally as I went out and test it and posted on KI when everyone else think SV march x 2 + haste spell will guarantee at least 50% haste), so I am all for knowing more about the game.

Just that I am pretty sick and tired of hearing ppl keep bringing up 1 dex = 1 acc and think it make the 2handers all the sudden god. I mean, if anything, I personally don't think it was the biggest reason why melees are parsing higher than 1handers now. I was able to use meat on merit party with haste gear before and accuracy close to cap pre update, so I hardly see it as the reason why we are overpowered (looking at it capping at 95%, I think it gives a 2-5% bonus at most on accuracy in merit situation, hardly anything). Perhaps on HNM it will make a difference, but as I mentioned, I was very excited the day we got the 2hand upgrade. So I went to sky and test it out to see if I can eat meat and go with haste gear on Suzaku (no bard) as Drk/war, and the result was disappointing as I had horrible accuracy compare to if I eat meat. That's why I didn't want to believe that the +40 to 50 dex which result in accuracy is equal to sushi, I know for sure sushi is still better, and by far.

I guess more for me to learn and test out.

[XxSlusherxx]

patch has given at least 40 and as high as 60 acc

Which 2her gets to 120 dex? I'd say 40-50 MAX bonus. And seeing as 40 acc ~ 20% parsed acc, I'd say it evened out to the 20% free dual wield delay reduction that 1hers were getting.

Assuming of course that any 1h automatically is /NIN and is wearing a Suppanomimi, at the very least. Not to mention the ATT bonuses and ability to wear ATT gear and eat ATT food to help per hit damage.

There are a good number of jobs in the game with their highest melee skill being a 1h weapon. Other than NIN, they won't necessarily have DW at their disposal. It's a single subjob thing. I don't see 1h getting buffed to compensate for Hasso on /SAM for 2h.

If there was a bone thrown to single-wielded 1h as well, then that'd be different. As it is, it seems like a "fix" for jobs parsing against a WAR/NIN, not the weapon classes themselves.

the only possible argument I can understand that you'd be making is thf/war being thrown in the doghouse, but thf/war wasen't exactly popular to begin with. And even the few that knew it really shines for some level spreads, would be asked to switch to /nin if not in a set pt. Except possibly sam/war 1hand was easily far more overpowered in a 1h vs. 2h comparison pre-pre-patch, sam/war being mabye about even with the old lopsidedness how quickly people forget.

[VZX]

So I went to sky and test it out to see if I can eat meat and go with haste gear on Suzaku (no bard) as Drk/war, and the result was disappointing as I had horrible accuracy compare to if I eat meat.

May I know the detail?

[megido]

Wait-- why exactly does holding a 2 hand weapon (with both hands mind you) not make sense that it should be more accurate as opposed to swinging a 1hander (with 2hands).

Some of the responses of the people here are plain ridiculous. Holding something lighter (with each hand) and swinging should not be more accurate than holding something with 2 hands. You have the advantage of dual wield reduction, and constant dot -- and honestly for the complaining people are just complaining because it's a hit on your pride that the old paradigm you excelled at now needs to be re-evaluated.

If you're so god damn smart and methodically augment your character through data then just find your new sweetspot. The update at the very least brought new variety of jobs out and viable for XP PTs and HNMing instead of relying on the same OLD JOB TEMPLATE from legacy.

GET OVER IT

Megido-cerb
75whm nin brd blm

[Ryko]

Wait-- why exactly does holding a 2 hand weapon (with both hands mind you) not make sense that it should be more accurate as opposed to swinging a 1hander (with 2hands).

Some of the responses of the people here are plain ridiculous. Holding something lighter (with each hand) and swinging should not be more accurate than holding something with 2 hands. You have the advantage of dual wield reduction, and constant dot -- and honestly for the complaining people are just complaining because it's a hit on your pride that the old paradigm you excelled at now needs to be re-evaluated.

If you're so god damn smart and methodically augment your character through data then just find your new sweetspot. The update at the very least brought new variety of jobs.

GET OVER IT

Megido-cerb
75whm nin brd blm

Just do yourself a favor and shut the fuck up.

[Nameless]

I don't think it is that big of a deal to WS at 1% and get full damage. It is more accurate to parse the Sam/war that way so you get the idea of what your average WS is. As for War/nin ws at 1%, can't do anything about it, wish there is a way to really parse as if the mob has more HP.

The thing is, the reason alot of 2 handers use TP at end of the fight is to avoid using WS at the start of the next fight and overall lower the parse result. WS in the beginning of next fight would mean you have to seigan and go on defensive mode the whole fight while War/nin can just cut without worrying too much. So in the end i think it will be even.

I don't understand the logic
full damage on 1% mob HP definitely skew the parse, mob HP, and total damage.
RNG/WAR can skew the parse hard if they have this kind of playstyle

No, the point is that the mob's HP shouldn't be the determination of your damage. While I think Sam/war using WS at 1% is more accurate of what they can do, I don't think it is accurate in the same way for War/nin to do that. I mean, in a perfect world, and to parse, you want to have a mob that has 1 zilloin HP and you and the rest just attack and WS non stop, it is the best way to really see who is the best over time, without worrying about the engage delay, ws at 1% and stuff issue. That's just my logic. I think the parse result was obviously in Sam's favor due to that, but I also think if the Sam didn't do that and wait to WS at the next mob at start, it would favor the war/nin cuz sam/war will then have to go on defensive mode more often. So either way you are talking about none perfect situation, so why bother.

[megido]

epeen pride was hurt in last statement

as if a 100 HNMLs screamed in sadness at once.

[Nameless]

So I went to sky and test it out to see if I can eat meat and go with haste gear on Suzaku (no bard) as Drk/war, and the result was disappointing as I had horrible accuracy compare to if I eat meat.

May I know the detail?

What detail do you want to know. I remember the gears I was wearing and stuff. So feel free to ask in more detail. I too want to find out about this accuracy thing.

[AoshiZ]

Wait-- why exactly does holding a 2 hand weapon (with both hands mind you) not make sense that it should be more accurate as opposed to swinging a 1hander (with 2hands).

Some of the responses of the people here are plain ridiculous. Holding something lighter (with each hand) and swinging should not be more accurate than holding something with 2 hands. You have the advantage of dual wield reduction, and constant dot -- and honestly for the complaining people are just complaining because it's a hit on your pride that the old paradigm you excelled at now needs to be re-evaluated.

If you're so god damn smart and methodically augment your character through data then just find your new sweetspot. The update at the very least brought new variety of jobs out and viable for XP PTs and HNMing instead of relying on the same OLD JOB TEMPLATE from legacy.

GET OVER IT

Megido-cerb
75whm nin brd blm

The argument is why should 2H have more accuracy than 1H. The lighter weapon in one hand versus a super heavy weapon in two hands. So you think you would be more accurate with a GreatSword/Lance than a Rapier/Dagger?

[XxSlusherxx]

Please stop with the real life arguments about what is easier to have accuracy with, among the many reasons why it's pointless/ludicris you have the fact that few/if anyone playing FFXI has attacked a living being with a sword/pole/axe/scythe in their life so how the fuck would we know?

[megido]

No I just wanted to point out the fallacy of the idea.

You can't use the 1hand logic - because the other side of it can be argued also.

What's most important is the net effect of the update.

As such more job combinations are more viable now-- overall a positive thing. Variety is not so bad.

The resentment towards the patch is more on the side of the people who took such pride in excelling in the old system, only to have their precious house of cards crumble before them.

Adjust -- because the patch is more positive than negative.

Assface gallant or whatever his name was was quick to shoot it down... probably because a) superiority complex b) whatever pride or what not

Oddly enough, there is absolutely nothing assface gallant has done that I have not done. The quick retort was a sign that pride was hurt -- and the animosity from the update is because people now have to rethink as to how to become top tier.

[HadesBothari]

The argument is why should 2H have more accuracy than 1H. The lighter weapon in one hand versus a super heavy weapon in two hands. So you think you would be more accurate with a GreatSword/Lance than a Rapier/Dagger?

Nah.. the only arguement is purple or blue.. (unless ofcourse everyone is ambidextrous..)

[Charismatic]

Please stop with the real life arguments about what is easier to have accuracy with, among the many reasons why it's pointless/ludicris you have the fact that few/if anyone playing FFXI has attacked a living being with a sword/pole/axe/scythe in their life so how the fuck would we know?

And not just attacked with them... gotta be trained to use them PROPERLY, and just 1 won't do.

Gotta be trained with both weapon types you're comparing.
Either way, this is a game where we use magic and take several chops to kill a friggin worm. Real life has nothing to do with that kinda stuff.

[Nameless]

Wait-- why exactly does holding a 2 hand weapon (with both hands mind you) not make sense that it should be more accurate as opposed to swinging a 1hander (with 2hands).

Some of the responses of the people here are plain ridiculous. Holding something lighter (with each hand) and swinging should not be more accurate than holding something with 2 hands. You have the advantage of dual wield reduction, and constant dot -- and honestly for the complaining people are just complaining because it's a hit on your pride that the old paradigm you excelled at now needs to be re-evaluated.

If you're so god damn smart and methodically augment your character through data then just find your new sweetspot. The update at the very least brought new variety of jobs out and viable for XP PTs and HNMing instead of relying on the same OLD JOB TEMPLATE from legacy.

GET OVER IT

Megido-cerb
75whm nin brd blm

The argument is why should 2H have more accuracy than 1H. The lighter weapon in one hand versus a super heavy weapon in two hands. So you think you would be more accurate with a GreatSword/Lance than a Rapier/Dagger?

Pre update it was more about swinging a weapon weight 10 pound and able to hit twice as fast and about 75% of the damage of what a weapon weight 20 pounds can do. So if the weapon weight 20 pound can't hit twice as hard, then the only way to make this game balanced is to allow it to have more accuracy, and indirectly result in eating meat to fully utilize the 2hand weapon base damage. Probably doesn't make sense that way, but whatever works I am all for it.

Tho, on TV and movie and stuff, you see the ppl with dagger always go mindlessly swinging but never connects. The fact that they are able to swing faster just means that they have more chance to hit, but the actual accuracy itself is about the same I would say.

Pick up a heavy weapon and swing it with one hand, and swing it with 2 hand, and ask yourself which makes you more accurate. Before the update, the damage and stuff is closer to, in reality, swinging a scythe with one hand, cuz you get no extra bonus for swinging a heavier weapon other than the base damage pre update.

[Ryko]

epeen pride was hurt in last statement

as if a 100 HNMLs screamed in sadness at once.

Has nothing to do with e-peen, you're just a fucking mongoloid.

[Isiolia]

by "a good number of jobs" you mean BLU, BST and THF or are you trying to count PLD, WHM, RDM and BRD too?

BLUs should be dependent on their spells.
BSTs should be dependent on their pets.
THFs are kind of screwed but mostly not because of the damage but because SA and TA are being subbed with pretty good effect by other jobs.

the fixes for these jobs lie in places other than adjusting 1h weapon damage.

BLUs should be dependent on their spells, sure. However, they also tend to want TP for some things, and their spell accuracy is contingent on their main weapon accuracy. So wouldn't 1h weapon ACC on par with the 2h boost actually help them too?

BSTs "should" be, but it generally isn't in merit type play. BST needs a lot more than what it was given, especially now. Even then, unless we're given a lot of ability scale pet performance up, raising the BST's damage output will remain the only way to stay remotely competitive.

Wouldn't THF benefit from being able to use a lot more ATT as well? Or is that not the reason they go /WAR if possible?

That being said, I'd include all 1h-inclined jobs, not just ones with a DD focus. In fairness, it's because the 2h changes aren't restricted to that either. A staff-wielding BLM or SMN gets (proportionally) the same boost as any other 2h user. Bringing role into it doesn't add up. It's not a trait that DD jobs got and backline jobs didn't, it applies universally across the weapon classes.

[XxSlusherxx]

whats your point?