Damage change thread

[Amele]

blitz is something to consider at 75 depending on what else you've got on / what set up you're trying for, but again, dex+5 is possibly better.

I've been known to argue the value of very small points of haste before, but the fact of the matter is, 5dex/5acc or 5str/5att is going to be a bigger improvement than 1% haste in most 'general purpose' situations, if not all.

situations with extreme haste are another story of course.

Yea, I think its main application would be at 75 when a 2-hander *would* likely end up in a capped acc/att scenario and not so much for lower levels. A pimped homam/dusk+1/turban/speed DRK would have 21% already so it really seems like 1% haste could win over the other alternatives.

I don't feel like calculating the dot improvement of 5 dex, so we'll just throw a sniper ring on there. (acc+5)

if hit rate is <= 92.5% then this will be a dot improvement (worst case) of: 2.70%

if haste on gear is 21% and you get one march (11%) /sam (10%) and haste(15%) you will see a dot improvement of 2.38%.

yeah, I don't think blitz beats thunder except in extreme haste (>=67% haste) situations and/or situations where your accuracy is within 4 acc of capping out.

[Baha]

As was said, 20% more acc versus 20% faster swings, really elegant way to handle it.

Just quoting this to poke a hole in this, isn't intended personally. :3

Let's take a WAR 75:
/SAM :
Speed : Hasso (10%, no effect on tpgain)
Attack : +40-50ish from STR, 5STR (and attack) from hasso
Accuracy : +40-50ish from DEX, 10acc from hasso
Defense : Seigan third eye
Others : Meditate, Store TP, grip stats

/NIN
Speed : Dual Wield (15-20%, assuming suppa, affects tp gained)
Attack : x
Accuracy : x
Defense : Utsusemi's
Others : offhand stats (notably multihit weapons, but others are still impressive too)

To sort of summarize, well yeah, utsu and dual wield are always there, while seigan and hasso require JA-dancing, but the 20-20 thing is slightly misrepresenting things.
For a WAR dualwielding's lack of comparable atk and acc is even less of an issue, thanks to native berserk and agg, other dualwielders, like THF and BLU feel this slightly more.

The 'gap' as a whole isn't as bad as I'd imagined it while reading update notes, but as far as I'm seeing, it's there regardless. Ironically enough, WAR, the iconic tp-burn job, which sparked half of the loathing of DW, can just jump ship to the twohanded /SAM group. I've stopped going on and on to cry about it, but well, things kind of got skewed anotehr way isntead of balanced.
Yeah, dualwielding outdoing relic gaxe, or even closely relic scythe for DRK was pretty retarded, but the whole hagun/[insert other AH twohander] matching/outdoing Ridills and Black Belt's doesn't feel all that peachy either. Ah well, we'll just have to wait for SE to break/balance it some other way again.

[Amele]

As was said, 20% more acc versus 20% faster swings, really elegant way to handle it.

Just quoting this to poke a hole in this, isn't intended personally. :3

Let's take a WAR 75:
/SAM :
Speed : Hasso (10%, no effect on tpgain)
Attack : +40-50ish from STR, 5STR (and attack) from hasso
Accuracy : +40-50ish from DEX, 10acc from hasso
Defense : Seigan third eye
Others : Meditate, Store TP, grip stats

/NIN
Speed : Dual Wield (15-20%, assuming suppa, affects tp gained)
Attack : x
Accuracy : x
Defense : Utsusemi's
Others : offhand stats (notably multihit weapons, but others are still impressive too)

stopped reading there. /SAM doesn't give you attack accuracy or grips.
you could do war/nin and wield a GAxe and get all those things.

and lets' not talk about the fact that most 1h weapon stat bonuses dwarf 2h stats ('sup juggernaut) or that a 1h weapon with half the delay has 75% of the D: value and 75% of the fstr cap.

the imbalance has -always- been the weapons.
rather than totally revamp the weapon stats to give the 2h weapons damage codes in the triple digits (thereby making strength less useful since you could never make fstr even come close to not being dwarfed by the effect of the base D value); SE relaxed 2h pdif cap and provided an inherent bonus to attack commensurate with approximately a ~.125 cRatio boost.

.15 isn't going to cut it, so SE provided an accuracy bonus of approximately 20% hit rate so that 2h users could push their attack to gain the actual benefits of the relaxed 2h pdif cap, without which they wouldn't be on par.

SE could've done 1 str = 2 attack instead of str+dex but that would've resulted in obsoleting attack gear entirely (since the amount of attack you could get would be dwarfed by the benefits you get from strength).

the current balance has accuracy gear situationally better in some slots (you'd still want a sniper+1 for instance, you'd still use an ebody over an osode, etc) and dex/str gear situationally better in other slots, which honestly, is how the game should've been all along unless you subscribe to the theory that some stats were designed specifically to be traps for poor players, and not as a result of flawed design/implementation.

[Khrno]

I'll throw it here just for the sake of comparitions, parser on FF.

As side note and irrelevant to the topic but just because, BLMs don't have Novios and it wasn't Lightingday either (1 was a gimp 73 one too).


http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f1...64/Faf9-12.png


*Legend:
-Khrno: DRK/SAM Algol, Adaberk, 14% Haste, Red Curry, no Haste spell, no Souleater.
-Brown block: SAM/WAR Hagun, Shura body, mix of att and haste pieces, Coeurl Sub, no Haste spell.
-Purple block: NIN/WAR Perdu/crit, AF2, Haste gear, Sole Sushi, Haste on.
-Grey blocks: PLD/NINs
-Green blocks: SMNs
-Red block: RDM
-Black blocks: BLMs
-White block: WHM

Notes: Meleing was done all the time, blindna casted asap, WS done with 150-200% TP in the case of the SAM, with 200-300% TP for DRK, no haste because jps didn't want to haste us i guess, both SMNs with melees doing Earthen Wards.

Number of WS (only for Skillchains): DRK 4, NIN 4, SAM 8 (forgot to add the ws # field for the report and i had taken the ss already and couldn't get bothered taking it again since i had edited it already).



Some people where saying they had very high accuracy on FF, i don't know how (true that i use Dusk instead of Homam), but still 56% for my acc is awfull, i did have around 650~ att for TP and 700~ for ws.
I was thinking on doing /WAR next time, eating Sole Sushi and relying on Berserk + Double Attack, instead of Meditate + Hasso, I want to bring my melee damage up even at the cost of TP gain which wouldn't let me do more Ground Strikes instead of Spinning Slash too.

[Baha]

stopped reading there. /SAM doesn't give you attack accuracy or grips.
you could do war/nin and wield a GAxe and get all those things.

Except I meant to compare a dualwielder vs a twohanded user with appropriate subs, sorry, thought that would be clear. Of course you can use /NIN with greataxe, but you'd be doing it wrong, or so the consensus seems to be. Meaning : the dual wield delay reduction needs a specific subjob, so to fairly compare dualwield versus twohander, the twohander would of course need to be /SAM.
Again, sorry if it really was too incoherent.

[layoneil]

Yeah, dualwielding outdoing relic gaxe, or even closely relic scythe for DRK was pretty retarded, but the whole hagun/[insert other AH twohander] matching/outdoing Ridills and Black Belt's doesn't feel all that peachy either.

a Black Belt isn't a weapon, Hagun isn't much easier to get than Destroyers.

- BB is great blah blah, every job should have a quest like that to be equally great.
- Ridill is great blah blah, every job should have a weapon like that to be equally great.

just because those two are not true doesn't mean all other jobs should automatically be 2nd rate without relic.

[Amele]

stopped reading there. /SAM doesn't give you attack accuracy or grips.
you could do war/nin and wield a GAxe and get all those things.

Except I meant to compare a dualwielder vs a twohanded user with appropriate subs, sorry, thought that would be clear. Of course you can use /NIN with greataxe, but you'd be doing it wrong, or so the consensus seems to be. Meaning : the dual wield delay reduction needs a specific subjob, so to fairly compare dualwield versus twohander, the twohander would of course need to be /SAM.
Again, sorry if it really was too incoherent.

it wasn't incoherent, it was just a flawed argument; /sam is not the only sub for a war/x wielding greataxe (while it may be the default, it's certainly not the only one that gives benefits.) I wouldn't bat an eye at a war/drk or war/thf for instance, -especially- outside of merit.

[Baha]

it wasn't incoherent, it was just a flawed argument; /sam is not the only sub for a war/x wielding greataxe (while it may be the default, it's certainly not the only one that gives benefits.) I wouldn't bat an eye at a war/drk or war/thf for instance, -especially- outside of merit.

It's not the only one that gives benefits, yes, but it's the same for a THF.
As I quoted, it isn't as simple as 20%acc for twohanders versus 20%haste for dualwielders, because other than MNK or NIN (or PUP, yeah) no job natively gets Dual Wield or Martial arts. To get the benefits as a WAR, THF, etc, it requires a specific subjob: /NIN. /SAM is somewhat of the staple of twohanders, with Hasso/Seigan added in, it's not just speed vs accuracy anymore.

Simply put : dualwield is (most often) based on a subjob, you can't really compare the benefits of simply using a twohanded weapon on the same level, since the twohander can then pile on the benefits of a subjob still, usually /SAM. That was my problem with this comparison.

As was said, 20% more acc versus 20% faster swings, really elegant way to handle it.

a Black Belt isn't a weapon, Hagun isn't much easier to get than Destroyers.

- BB is great blah blah, every job should have a quest like that to be equally great.
- Ridill is great blah blah, every job should have a weapon like that to be equally great.

just because those two are not true doesn't mean all other jobs should automatically be 2nd rate without relic.

I know all of that. If you take your bogstandard high-end AH SAM DRK MNK and WAR, they should be pretty even. Give the SAM some Usukane and an Ace's Helm, the DRK some homam and an Ace's Helm, the MNK a Black Belt and some Usukane and the WAR, let's say some Haidate and an Adaman Hauberk.
It would be nice if "comparative" difficulty in obtaining the gear you wear (debatable, I know, and yeah, not every job has the gear it should) would yield in somewhat similar performance.

Look, I'm certainly not saying everything should be changed back to how it was, shit was fucked up for twohanders before the update. But even before this particular change, some attention was given to twohanders. TP/hit changing (bad for jobs exploiting TPfloor, good for the twohanders), Hasso/Seigan as a twohanded alternative to dualwield and utsusemi, it was needed, but wasn't enough. This update turned the tables a good bit, it's enjoyable to see gear being re-evaluated and new setups being brooded upon. But yeah, is it that bad to have the opinion that the existing gap didn't quite justify the last change, and that the tables have turned, rather than be balanced?
I can live with the current state of things, it's less skewed than before, but I can't feel it's balanced just yet. We'll see how SE will keep tipping the scales.

[Max™]

*cough*War/Drg*cough*

>.>

Jumps got a nice boost from this update didn't they?

Either way.

War/Nin with Great Axe is fine, before the repatched it was going to be the new default.

Now it's back to "whatever you prefer will perform as well as the effort you put in."

Versus "if you aren't using one of these specific things, you will be held back significantly because of it, and penalized for no reason."

It isn't like you automatically pwn Ridills with a Hagun, you still have to gear for it, use your abilities to the maximum advantage, and pay make the most of what your job can do.

The difference is now, a lvl 75 Blm that just got War to 75 to use their rotted Ridill and Adaberk, but still TP's in STR rings because they just don't know what the hell is going on, won't decimate you, or make you fight for a few % on a parser.

[suji]

I don't feel like calculating the dot improvement of 5 dex, so we'll just throw a sniper ring on there. (acc+5)

if hit rate is <= 92.5% then this will be a dot improvement (worst case) of: 2.70%

if haste on gear is 21% and you get one march (11%) /sam (10%) and haste(15%) you will see a dot improvement of 2.38%.

yeah, I don't think blitz beats thunder except in extreme haste (>=67% haste) situations and/or situations where your accuracy is within 4 acc of capping out.

Then we are in agreement that Blitz could probably be better, because I said in situations where acc and att are capped. ;^^ It seems pretty easy for 2-handers to cap accuracy in merits from the parses that have been shown in the post-patch parse results thread.

[LD]

This is all great, but you can't honestly say you were losing more damage through misses with a 2H. Point of fact, since MA and DW had an inherent superiority, it could be argued that if both parties were equally geared, the DW/MA would lose more through misses, though the 2H would probably lose the same percentage of their damage.

Now that this has been resolved through a pDIF and level correction adjustment (damage), you can't really argue that you NEED it anymore. Most people aren't even saying we should get rid of it entirely, just the base stat portion. Hell, you could keep the STR=Att base stat conversion, the difference it creates is much more reasonable. Since a lot of 2H gear has accuracy along with DEX, even if you lost the base stat Acc, you would have greater accuracy on the whole. It may not be as large a difference, but it would be enough of one to give you an advantage and a different gear set up without having a largely superior base hit rate.

[Plow]

I guess this is good in the sense that melee can shine on HNMs and stuff but I thought they were trying to get it back to a balance where we wanted to SC with MBs and such?

In order for that to happen they'll have to put out a number of highly populated camps full of mobs worth at or very close to 300 exp a kill.

[AoshiZ]

I guess this is good in the sense that melee can shine on HNMs and stuff but I thought they were trying to get it back to a balance where we wanted to SC with MBs and such?

In order for that to happen they'll have to put out a number of highly populated camps full of mobs worth at or very close to 300 exp a kill.

I did read one interview a while back where they were considering increasing the HP on existing mobs. I don't know the effectiveness really but...

[devildrifterX]

I think the nicest thing is going to be the new gear choices, i have yet to see some sams sporting a Byrnie +1 or a Askar Korazin (i think Nickolias is the only person i know who has one) yet. but i think that might be a ways off, since i still see too many hachiman body + Ohat combos /wrist.

Now, i have to somehow convice people to let me mnk/war in merits so i can run with the few pimp sams i know lol

[Amele]

I think the nicest thing is going to be the new gear choices, i have yet to see some sams sporting a Byrnie +1 or a Askar Korazin (i think Nickolias is the only person i know who has one) yet. but i think that might be a ways off, since i still see too many hachiman body + Ohat combos /wrist.

Now, i have to somehow convice people to let me mnk/war in merits so i can run with the few pimp sams i know lol

askar is tough to get. all the 2handers I know who have one are using it (well, not the ebody darks or wars) but that's still only like.. two people on my server and another one or two here on BG.

byrnie+1 is still kinda situational, honestly 5str 25 attack vs. 6 str 12 attack is pretty clear cut but 6 str 6 dex 12 att 12 acc vs 5 str 25 att is still a little up in the air, since crit builds are still feasible and accuracy that's 'almost' for free (actually basically free, at a 1:1 ratio to attack) is a good deal, since there's other slots where acc is 2:1 trade off at best (o.kotes vs. n.kotes for instance) since you still need some acc to cap hit rate

[Lordender]

one things for certain on my server after monday's patch i see a shitload of sams who ditched their hauby+1's for askar bodies >.>;

[Max™]

Also saw that the G.O.A.T. is pimping a Byrnie +1 and some other obscenely kick ass gear as usual. >.>

I just got out of a party at Mamool south.

It really felt right, the way it should have been in the first place.

War/Nin, Wood/Man
War/Sam, Rampager
Drk/Sam, swapped from Subduer to O.Scythe near the end to play with Cross Reaper.
Nin/War, U/U

All of us had good to great AH gear, bits and pieces of ideal gear for our jobs, and neither side had the clear obvious advantage in damage.

The Nin hit 4 times to my one, but then I'd pop a double crit and do 10 times the damage he was doing per hit.

WS damage was pretty regular between everyone, noone really stood out as zomg higher.

Funniest part was when both me and the War/Nin WSed within seconds of each other, and both got 975.

Jaemoon uses Rampage, the Mamool Ja Mimer takes 975 Points of Damage!
Xavian hits the Mamool Ja Mimer for 76 Points of Damage!
Maxaru uses Raging Rush, the Mamool Ja Mimer takes 975 Points of Damage!

Parity baby.

[Nameless]

I'll throw it here just for the sake of comparitions, parser on FF.

As side note and irrelevant to the topic but just because, BLMs don't have Novios and it wasn't Lightingday either (1 was a gimp 73 one too).


http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f1...64/Faf9-12.png


*Legend:
-Khrno: DRK/SAM Algol, Adaberk, 14% Haste, Red Curry, no Haste spell, no Souleater.
-Brown block: SAM/WAR Hagun, Shura body, mix of att and haste pieces, Coeurl Sub, no Haste spell.
-Purple block: NIN/WAR Perdu/crit, AF2, Haste gear, Sole Sushi, Haste on.
-Grey blocks: PLD/NINs
-Green blocks: SMNs
-Red block: RDM
-Black blocks: BLMs
-White block: WHM

Notes: Meleing was done all the time, blindna casted asap, WS done with 150-200% TP in the case of the SAM, with 200-300% TP for DRK, no haste because jps didn't want to haste us i guess, both SMNs with melees doing Earthen Wards.

Number of WS (only for Skillchains): DRK 4, NIN 4, SAM 8 (forgot to add the ws # field for the report and i had taken the ss already and couldn't get bothered taking it again since i had edited it already).



Some people where saying they had very high accuracy on FF, i don't know how (true that i use Dusk instead of Homam), but still 56% for my acc is awfull, i did have around 650~ att for TP and 700~ for ws.
I was thinking on doing /WAR next time, eating Sole Sushi and relying on Berserk + Double Attack, instead of Meditate + Hasso, I want to bring my melee damage up even at the cost of TP gain which wouldn't let me do more Ground Strikes instead of Spinning Slash too.

I told everyone this already, the added accuracy from dex = acc does not equal eating sushi. Yet most of the ppl still think it is a huge deal. Thing is on HNM you are still forced to eat sushi, and if you don't, you are likely to have to sacrifice some haste or attack for accuracy, which in my opinion is not worth it (Haste worth it the most on gear, sushi has the best benefit in term of giving accuracy while attack food doesn't grant you the benefit in attack that sushi can give you in accuracy). So best is to have haste gear, eat sushi, and use sub job or bard to get attack.

[Nameless]

As was said, 20% more acc versus 20% faster swings, really elegant way to handle it.

Just quoting this to poke a hole in this, isn't intended personally. :3

Let's take a WAR 75:
/SAM :
Speed : Hasso (10%, no effect on tpgain)
Attack : +40-50ish from STR, 5STR (and attack) from hasso
Accuracy : +40-50ish from DEX, 10acc from hasso
Defense : Seigan third eye
Others : Meditate, Store TP, grip stats

/NIN
Speed : Dual Wield (15-20%, assuming suppa, affects tp gained)
Attack : x
Accuracy : x
Defense : Utsusemi's
Others : offhand stats (notably multihit weapons, but others are still impressive too)

stopped reading there. /SAM doesn't give you attack accuracy or grips.
you could do war/nin and wield a GAxe and get all those things.
and lets' not talk about the fact that most 1h weapon stat bonuses dwarf 2h stats ('sup juggernaut) or that a 1h weapon with half the delay has 75% of the D: value and 75% of the fstr cap.

the imbalance has -always- been the weapons.
rather than totally revamp the weapon stats to give the 2h weapons damage codes in the triple digits (thereby making strength less useful since you could never make fstr even come close to not being dwarfed by the effect of the base D value); SE relaxed 2h pdif cap and provided an inherent bonus to attack commensurate with approximately a ~.125 cRatio boost.

.15 isn't going to cut it, so SE provided an accuracy bonus of approximately 20% hit rate so that 2h users could push their attack to gain the actual benefits of the relaxed 2h pdif cap, without which they wouldn't be on par.

SE could've done 1 str = 2 attack instead of str+dex but that would've resulted in obsoleting attack gear entirely (since the amount of attack you could get would be dwarfed by the benefits you get from strength).

the current balance has accuracy gear situationally better in some slots (you'd still want a sniper+1 for instance, you'd still use an ebody over an osode, etc) and dex/str gear situationally better in other slots, which honestly, is how the game should've been all along unless you subscribe to the theory that some stats were designed specifically to be traps for poor players, and not as a result of flawed design/implementation.

How is that /sam doesn't give you attack and accuracy? Hasso gives +10 accuracy and +5 str = 5 attack. Not to mention 10% haste and meditate and store TP. /nin gives you what, shadows, give deal if you can even steal hate with /nin against Drk/sam or Sam/war. Stop talking about War/nin using GA, it just doesn't make sense, it is like Drk/sam using a one hand weapon, you get almost nothing out of your sub job.

[Nameless]

Also, feint is far from useless. <3 feint on kclubing or 100 GA zerging. Can't live without it really.

Thf is really just the feint and TH3 whore now a day :D I appreciate them very much so.