Einherjar: Valgrind (Odin's Chamber)

[Lordwafik]

Nah, unlike einherjar, salvage loads the same mobs every time, and in some zones the same cells. The only difference is the 35 peices aren't garunteed.

Last 5 Einhertrash I went to have always loaded up 12 x Rotting Huskarl, and 12 Dark eles or Krakens. Mmmm delicious! I wonder what next week's einherjar will have, probably more rotting huskarls.

[Palin@Ramuh]

Nah, unlike einherjar, salvage loads the same mobs every time, and in some zones the same cells. The only difference is the 35 peices aren't garunteed.

Last 5 Einhertrash I went to have always loaded up 12 x Rotting Huskarl, and 12 Dark eles or Krakens. Mmmm delicious! I wonder what next week's einherjar will have, probably more rotting huskarls.

um... do I have to explain the faulty logic?

[Kaeko]

I don't think Lodwafik is trying to say he likes things easy, but more like he wants things hard for the right reasons.

Right now Einherjar is hard due to things that have very little to do with strategy or tactics, but are instead difficult because of logistical reasons - the whole tier'd system, losing all key items when you attempt Odin, horrid drop rates on every chamber except Odin, etc. I think most people like a challenge, but not when the challenge is so skewed towards things like making sure you get 20/20 to come (even 1 missing pretty much sets you back at least 3 days) every run. Also the randomness is a nice twist, but I think most would agree it can be a bit retarded; what's up with getting 6 nickurs and the Buffalo boss 1 run, then 12 caster bones, 10 dark elementals, and the Marid the next? You can say it forces you to be flexible but a x3 # of mob difference based on randomness... don't you think that's a little too much luck involved? I don't know the size of the group you run with, but as a group that takes 15-18, this type of bad luck can be crippling, especially past tier 1.

Also, I think most like some type of system which is possible with lower numbers, yet more rewarding with larger numbers. For instance, you can multi-run Limbus and spam Omega/Ultimas with a large group - yet a small group can still do bosses. In Salvage, you typically can pull off more NMs in 1 run, increasing item drop chances, with a large group, yet small groups can still win if they are skilled. Einherjar has the problem of not being flexible towards small groups - I think most will agree it is only possible with a pretty large-sized group - most players are not happy about this, especially with SE's recent trend towards low-man instance events.

I'm sure this system or the difficulty will be changed. You can argue if this is good or not, but I don't think anyone will argue that SE has nerfed things significantly more fair and less difficult than this current Einherjar system (like Salvage). LS I'm in is pretty much resigned to farming Ichor at this point until changes are made - I'm sure a lot of others are in the same boat.

[Palin@Ramuh]

Kaeko, but the same could be said for Salvage. Much of the reason salvage is hard is because of game mechanics and not necessarily the content. Getting people to pass cells, getting the right cells, getting enough of the right cells, actually getting 35s to actually drop, getting all 3 peices, paying an obscene ammount of money for body peices, having certain NMs actually pop. In some sense the logistics is what makes it hard.

The same could be said for Kings. Claiming alone is pretty much random luck combined with how well your zerg forces show up. Its a game of odds for the most part. As a game mechanic, that adds to the difficulty.

Yet Einherjar isn't allowed to use similar means of making an event harder? I think people overall mistake my position. I am not saying Einherjar isn't without flaws. I just don't think its FUBAR as people think. All I see is a lot of whining and crying from individuals who can't do it (which is why i appreciate your post). If these people could make it work, would they hold the same opinion? They knit pick, exagerate, and blow things out of proportion (case and point: the person who likened getting to Odin as similar to redoing all of CoP before JoL). Einherjar is not THAT bad. People fixate on the problems of it rather than figureing out ways to make it work...

People whined about Salvage before the Nerf, and what did Wafik do? Despite the flaws with Salvage, he still trudged on and figured it out. He showed a lot of people that it wasn't as bad as people made it out to be. Personally, I respect that a lot. I think Einherjar is much in the same vein.

[Fou-Lu]

ITT

Clowns who haven't beaten Odin
Clowns who have beat Odin
Clowns who will eventually fight Odin despite all this Einherjar bashing.

[Hapernack]

Kings are easy as shit.

Salvage is easy as shit as long as you're not retarded and have decently built characters.

As for your "maybe its not intended for you" comment, cut the bullshit before you look any dumber. You have no idea what a bad design is do you? EVERYTHING can be done in this game by ANYONE with the right setup and skill. Einherjar... not at all. 18 relic-wielding, perfect-skilled, Fully-merited and geared with nothing but +1 gear and the best of the best gear, still cannot win Einherjar T2, 3, or Odin. That sir, is stupid.

Let me break you down even farther because you can't come up with a single thing in the game that CAN'T be obtained by just anyone:

Relics are obtainable by.... oh guess what? Gil. Gil is for everyone. Gil can be gotten by anyone.

Ridills and King Abjs are.... well guess what? Easy as hell. Anyone could beat Fafnir or kings. They're stupid and easy.

Assault is.... not even comparable. Its a good balanced event. Also most of them are preferrably

Dynamis is.... again, not comparable. Its easy and can be completed with a QUARTER OR LESS of the max capacity of the event.

Salvage is also not comparable. It can be completed by anyone with a brain and a four leaf clover. Guess what? Preferrably done with a THIRD of the max capacity.

SE didn't say anything that might support your side. They said "it was meant to be a difficult event" which paraphrased into literal terms means "its random and uncontrollable and it doesn't matter how good you are its all about the body count". You can't argue and you can't come up with anything even remotely decent to support your side apparently. Just give up.

[Palin@Ramuh]

EVERYTHING can be done in this game by ANYONE with the right setup and skill.

You, sir, fail reading comprehension. I agree everything in this game can be done with the right setup (save AV because its AV and we don't know the strat). I never said differently.... EVER. To clarify what I said is, each player is different. Some players are more hardcore than others, some are more casual. Perhaps, Einherjar with its attendance requirement is aimed at more hardcore players. This is to say the people who CAN make runs with near perfect consistency. What you said completely misses that fact. You are right, everything CAN be done with the perfect setup. Einherjar just requires your to have more people for that perfect setup.

Can anyone get relics? Can anyone get a ridill? Etc. You are making an arguement that it is possible. I am argueing that its not probable. The average, casual player has virtually no shot at obtaining a ridill. They just don't have the time to sit in Aery and sacrifice that kind of time. The average player virtually has no shot at a relic barring they hit the KC lottery. Is it prossible? Sure. Is it probable? No. Just arguing that something is possible doesn't automatically mean that it is intended for that type of player.

If I am going to make the possible argument. It certainly is possible that people can beat Einherjar, we did. Is it probable that the average, casual or even mild-hardcore player will beat Einherjar, no. Especially if people keep adopting a defeatist attitude.



As for the game mechanic stuff and difficulty, refer to my previous post. If you have trouble understanding that, i'll explain it to you again.

[Kaeko]

I think SE has a nice system of making new events hard, then toning them down at a later time. Really gung-ho LSs get that nice head start with things, then the rest of the community catches up after 'fixes'. Salvage was a good example since it was much more difficult pre-nerf (no starter box, much worse drop rates in some areas like Silver Seas, etc.). Some other examples - the crazy pre-regen JoL nerf which only 1 LS actually killed pre-nerf (that was pretty retarded as well), and CoP missions (on 3 seperate occassions... Diabolos 40 cap used to be 30 cap... try doing that without stun or Utsu:ni).

Regarding your comment about people not being able to figure out ways to make their lower man groups work... I think that endgame progression in general is more about lowering numbers at this point. I'm sure as time goes on, people will find ways to make it work slightly better, although probably not to the point that the avergae group would find acceptable. Even then, logistical issues like being able to only do Odin once every month at the very best are still things which cannot be solved.

Not all parts of the game are meant for everyone - this is true for some things I guess. But SE should try to make as many events winnable by a large majority of groups. This is why I have no doubt this will be changed in some fashion at some point. To be honest, it's really not even a 'skills' thing in my opinion. My group just personally hoards BLMs and SAMs and we go on a 30 minute rampage and pray that 35 mobs didn't pop upon entry. There are some aspects of strategy on some bosses or holding adds, but it's quite minimal compared to something like Salvage, Limbus, or even Dynamis, which requires some fancy pulling sometimes.

In the end, it's about pleasing the game population, yet not making things too easy (an MMO needs a good number of time sinks to sustain interest). I don't think Einherjar strikes this balance as well as things like Salvage, or especially Limbus (which is usually regarded as a "perfect" event); that's why it'll probably be changed. If your group does it successfully now, then you have that benefit of getting a headstart, being a pioneer so to speak in that event, and the thrill of being one of the first. I don't think you'll be likely to win an argument that this event in its current state is 'good' for the game though - it might be interesting to the 'hardcore' people at first, but eventually it has to draw interest from the main population, which it just can't right now.

[Hapernack]

EVERYTHING can be done in this game by ANYONE with the right setup and skill.

You, sir, fail reading comprehension. I agree everything in this game can be done with the right setup (save AV because its AV and we don't know the strat). I never said differently.... EVER. To clarify what I said is, each player is different. Some players are more hardcore than others, some are more casual. Perhaps, Einherjar with its attendance requirement is aimed at more hardcore players. This is to say the people who CAN make runs with near perfect consistency. What you said completely misses that fact. You are right, everything CAN be done with the perfect setup. Einherjar just requires your to have more people for that perfect setup.

As for the game mechanic stuff and difficulty, refer to my previous post. If you have trouble understanding that, i'll explain it to you again.

I'm sorry I didn't realize I was dealing with a child. Let me break it down farther into layman's terms for you.

Einherjar cannot be won with a FULL alliance with the absolute most perfect gear and skill. THAT. IS. NOT. GOOD. You have breached the "this wasn't aimed at you" border and gone full blast into the "you can't do this" realm.

If you have trouble understanding that, I don't know what else to tell you. That's as elementary as it goes.

[Palin@Ramuh]

Regarding your comment about people not being able to figure out ways to make their lower man groups work...

From my 27 Einherjars, I have come to the conclusion that its not ment for smaller groups. If smaller groups still want to do it, they can figure ways to alleviate that problem. I posed two suggestions: teaming up and recruiting more people. Certain people didn't like those suggestions. But they are possible solutions if you want to get it done regardless. If you don't feel comfortable with that, then I refer to my first sentence. I don't think Einherjar is intended for smaller groups.

Just beacuse there has been a tendency towards making the HNM experience smaller, doesn't mean that SE couldn't try try something new and go the opposite way. At that point, at least they are trying. As for the rest of your post, I agree whole heartedly.


Hapernack... what is in a number? Dynamis can't be done with 6? Does that mean Dynamis fails? You are fixated on 18 as if it were some holy grail of FFXI numbers. There is nothing wrong with making an event that can't be done with less than 25. It's completely arbitrary. Just because most content can be done with 18 doesn't mean that Einherjar must be able to be done with 18.

I want to avoid personal attacks, but do you understand logic?

[Kaeko]

Regarding your comment about people not being able to figure out ways to make their lower man groups work...

From my 27 Einherjars, I have come to the conclusion that its not ment for smaller groups. If smaller groups still want to do it, they can figure ways to alleviate that problem. I posed two suggestions: teaming up and recruiting more people. Certain people didn't like those suggestions. But they are possible solutions if you want to get it done regardless. If you don't feel comfortable with that, then I refer to my first sentence. I don't think Einherjar is intended for smaller groups.

Just beacuse there has been a tendency towards making the HNM experience smaller, doesn't mean that SE couldn't try try something new and go the opposite way. At that point, at least they are trying.


Hapernack... what is in a number? Dynamis can't be done with 6? Does that mean Dynamis fails? You are fixated on 18 as if it were some holy grail of FFXI numbers. There is nothing wrong with making an event that can't be done with less than 25. It's completely arbitrary. Just because most content can be done with 18 doesn't mean that Einherjar must be able to be done with 18.

I want to avoid personal attacks, but do you understand logic?

You can actually do a pretty successful dynamis-xarc nowadays with 6. I'm also fairly sure you could 6 man something like Dynamis Sandy or Bastok due to layout. The game has progressed an incredibly amount towards low-manning, to the point where most LSs just aren't built to handle something large-scaled like Einherjar. If this event had been released 2 years ago when big HNM LSs still ruled instead of smaller, skilled groups, I think it would have been received better. The timing really matters.

I think teaming up is a possibility, but at this point, the rewards aren't all that great either, which probably just turns people off. I'm personally not that mad about it - although slow, I can still at least get ichor from the way my LS does it. It's just a bit frustrating when skill, even a great deal of it by today's standards, doesn't seem to make this even any more viable for smaller man groups. I don't think any other event, in an form, has been like that in this game recently other than AV, which is the butt of so many jokes now.

Logistical issues, severe lack of rewards, inflexibility with group sizes, and a lack of real intimate strategy beyond hoarding certain jobs... I think it's not as bad as some make it out to be, but with events like Salvage and Limbus to compare it to, it's far from meeting most people standards.

[Hapernack]

I want to avoid personal attacks, but do you understand logic?

Far more than you do apparently. Don't even bother bringing up anything regarding my knowledge of logic because that's just one step away from arguing semantics and quite frankly, I don't feel like doing all that tonight.

You do not understand that the REASON we can do things in low numbers as a playerbase nowadays is because of evolution of us as players to utilize our abilities to the fullest. Then they dump something on us that no matter how good you are, you can't do it without a body count. Do YOU understand logic?

[Palin@Ramuh]

I find it kind of interesting that the HNMLS on our servers are going in different directions. On Ramuh, it appears that most shells are at an all time high in terms of population. I think this is due mainly to endgame on Ramuh being situated arround Kings. With the way the claiming system works, its quantity(zerg) vs. quality (bots). Quantity tends to win out in the game of randomness that is Kings.

In terms of Success and completion, those are relative terms. Define a successfull Xarc? It's 100% relative. Can 6 do well? I'll take your word that they can. Can 6 beat DL? Ignoring crazy examples, i'll go with a no.

Part of Einherjar's problem is that its all or nothing. There is no middle ground. Its Win or its Lose. Does Xarc fail because an 18 member alliance couldnt beat DL? Of course not. Beacuse I would assume DL is the gauge of success for most Shells doing Xarc. You probably will need more than 18 for DL. That is why I don't understand why 18 is being thrown out as this holy grail of numbers for determining success

[Kaeko]

I find it kind of interesting that the HNMLS on our servers are going in different directions. On Ramuh, it appears that most shells are at an all time high in terms of population. I think this is due mainly to endgame on Ramuh being situated arround Kings. With the way the claiming system works, its quantity(zerg) vs. quality (bots). Quantity tends to win out in the game of randomness that is Kings.

In terms of Success and completion, those are relative terms. Define a successfull Xarc? It's 100% relative. Can 6 do well? I'll take your word that they can. Can 6 beat DL? Ignoring crazy examples, i'll go with a no.

Part of Einherjar's problem is that its all or nothing. There is no middle ground. Its Win or its Lose. Does Xarc fail because an 18 member alliance couldnt beat DL? Of course not. Beacuse I would assume DL is the gauge of success for most Shells doing Xarc. You probably will need more than 18 for DL. That is why I don't understand why 18 is being thrown out as this holy grail of numbers for determining success

This goes along with what I was saying about event flexibility with numbers. You can 18 man DL sure, but 6 still gets you a lot of AF2 shots. Low man groups can do well, larger groups can do well and get more (which is how it should be). As you said, Einherjar is all or nothing, and the all is pretty meager in my opinion anyways.

I think if people can avoid the personal attacks in this thread, the logical conclusion is there are problems with this zone that will and should be fixed if SE wants to help their game succeed at this point. Maybe some people come off as whiners to you here, but I think for the most part, the 'whining' is valid. They can do any number of things... can keep the concept the same, but make it easier... could scale the # of mobs with alliance count... could add some middle ground reward so that you don't have to necessarily clear everything. Personally I'd just like to see the tier system changed but that's just me. Lots of ways to fix it depending on what you think the biggest issue is, but it does need at least some tweaking - I don't think anyone at this point will argue that.

[Palin@Ramuh]

You do not understand that the REASON we can do things in low numbers as a playerbase nowadays is because of evolution of us as players to utilize our abilities to the fullest. Then they dump something on us that no matter how good you are, you can't do it without a body count. Do YOU understand logic?

The reason we do things with lower numbers is two fold.

On one hand, there is an ever preasent desire by players not to be dependant on large groups. Large groups are harder to organize, harder to get gear from, there are a million reasons why people try and avoid large groups. This is only half the story though.

On the other hand, we do things in smaller numbers because SE lets us. They give us better gear that increases the potential of the individuals that have it. They make events more conducive to smaller groups, such as the move towards Salvage or the move towards assault.

You are right, there has been a general trend in what SE had done to make the game require less groups. I credit this mainly due to the popularity of WoW.

The player base has evolved (even this carrys a heavy conotation of better), I'll say changed, to smaller groups on two aspects. SE can easily change that by quashing it on their end. They can make events that force us to use lots of people. Ultimately, they set the terms under which we operate. Of course, they will try to cater to us to not lose buisness, but ultimately they make the game that we play in. What they say goes.

However, you make a few faulty assumptions. You assume this is necessrily a Good thing. Agree or Disagree, its still an assumption. I would agree its probably a good thing. But more importantly, you make the assumption that SE can't act against a recent trend. Maybe, SE recognizes a void in FFXI where a event requiring a large ammount of people could fill. Something so that larger linkshells, wouldn't have to downsize to work with new content. SE's actions don't have to follow even their own trend. But to return to the first assumption, you assume that one of them is bad and one of them is good. You can't do that. It is what it is. It might be bad for you, but you can't say its intrinsically bad for all players. For that reason, I said before, maybe Einherjar isn't for you.

[Angelsin]

If your LS does Dynamis, you can do Einherjar. Are there problems now? Yes. Personally I'd like to see more of a focus on just clearing Tier 3 to be able to fight Odin again. 2 weeks to fight Odin again isn't bad at all. Have to wait till SE gets enough complaints before they change it though. It'll change, they nerfed the fuck out of everything else in the game, einherjar is just around the corner.

And Haper, stop bring a fucking retard. Other events (Kings, Dynamis, Salvage, etc.) are easy NOW because you have done them enough times that you know what to expect and what to do. Boo hoo it's an event that you're LS is not good at. Let's see, when was VD's first DL kill as a LS (or any other LS)? Recently. How about PD's first couple of wipes on Faf (or any other LS). Are these still happening? Yeah I don't think so. The odd wipe here and there happens naturally but overall when someone claims a king, they aren't lossing. You can't compare Ein to shit you've been doing for fucking years. I can still remember how hard it was for ALL Siren Dynamis LS's to beat Windy and how proud they were when they did it. Once that victory came I never heard anything about that LS having problems with Windy again. Do I need to ask how many wipes it took VD before they killed Ouryu/Bah 2? Naw, I didn't think so. But you guys have pulled through and other LS's on siren have also pulled though. Who would've thought practice makes perfect?

Einherjar cannot be won with a FULL alliance with the absolute most perfect gear and skill. THAT. IS. NOT. GOOD. You have breached the "this wasn't aimed at you" border and gone full blast into the "you can't do this" realm.

Yes it can. And it can be won with less than a full alliance and not absolute perfect gear. Learn to think in a strategic way and you'll be able to get to/beat Odin too. I shouldn't have to remind you or anyone else on Siren that's what IN was all about. Strategy > Zerging. Looks like your LS still needs to figure that lesson out. On the brighter side you have figured that out on other events. And Haper, I'm not 'attacking' you or VD or any other LS with these comments. I'm giving you advice. If you don't want to use it then that's your loss.

[Demosthenes11]

Beat Odin with 18 before you run your mouth.
Hell, FIGHT odin before you run your mouth

[Lordender]

It has been stated before that the timing is dreadful for einherjar due to the nature of how the game has evolved within the past two years. Most linkshells have downsized, ToAU content consisted of 95% small man activities in salvage, assault even most of the missions were doable with smaller than a group of six.

Outside of ToAU low-man play has increased all around, my LS does our own Dynamis, we hardly pull 25 people to xarcabard(usually average 23 which is our best attendence usually unless our few real casual players pick that night to log in ) and still manage to murder DL without any effort. Einherjar would be damn near impossible for my LS to consistently schedule and run because we've adapated to the low-man ways like many other linkshells have across the game before we would even consider peoples schedule conflicts. Team up isn't possible on my server because there just aren't many NA's who think Einherjar is worth going to.

[kuronosan]

Oh you guys clearly didn't hear what Palin said. Regardless of what you say, everything you're saying is a huge excuse to not beating Einherjar. You clearly want everything handed to you on a silver platter. You clearly don't know the value of working for your gear.

Everyone please just stop complaining in this topic. Clearly you're all just frustrated that you have to work for something for a change and that your linkshell sucks.

I mean... it can't possibly have anything to do with a really broken random spawn/boss system. Or a pathetic drop rate. Or losing all your progress from just entering and having to farm 9 feathers for 20-36 members. It's all about how sucky your linkshell is for not being able to cope with 30 minutes to kill every mob that spawns.

You heard it here first.

[Hapernack]

Learn to think in a strategic way and you'll be able to get to/beat Odin too. I shouldn't have to remind you or anyone else on Siren that's what IN was all about. Strategy > Zerging. Looks like your LS still needs to figure that lesson out.

Beat Odin with 18 before you run your mouth.
Hell, FIGHT odin before you run your mouth

Get it through your head that IN wasn't all that great. Its amazing that a year after you guys broke up and split off that you still carry your shell like it was the most awesomest thing ever and everyone else in the world is just pathetic compared to what you were. Who cares? You're gone now. Noone is interested anymore. What'll happen when VD goes one day? Noone will care what we did either. I'm not even going to get into a linkshell battle here with someone with his head so far up his own ass about a dead shell that he has to include at least one sentence in every post about how awesome IN was.

Yes it can. And it can be won with less than a full alliance and not absolute perfect gear.

Show me pics of Odin with those numbers. Seriously I want to see them.

Other events (Kings, Dynamis, Salvage, etc.) are easy NOW because you have done them enough times that you know what to expect and what to do.

You just named all the events that have the same mobs popping every time. How can you prepare for that which is purely random?

On the other hand, we do things in smaller numbers because SE lets us. They give us better gear that increases the potential of the individuals that have it. They make events more conducive to smaller groups, such as the move towards Salvage or the move towards assault.

See though NOW you're starting to get on my page. Do you not see now that the real reason we're pissed about this is because "It should be a possible option"? Having the POSSIBILITY to do something is what makes something well-designed. When you only have one possibility, then an event is poorly designed. I want the OPTION of being able to do it Way X instead of Way Y. Einherjar doesn't allow for that kind of variation and is the only one to do so.