Einherjar: Valgrind (Odin's Chamber)

[Neosutra]

Ya, good point about people not getting to lot other stuff due to saving for their #1..

As for Abyssea. I just implented/refined our lotting system for that event. It's a pretty complex event to have a fair system, so I'm sure I'll refine/change it. But currently it's based on current known drop rates, effort involved, and need.

It would be nice if I could have just gone "fucking be courteous people" and let people lot what they needed/wanted for the jobs they wanted the most. And just let people work together and earn great stuff together. But even with a group of friends, always going to have the guy that -needs- every piece of gear that drops for all of his jobs. I just dont have the endurance/eyes on to manage every single person's attendance/effort/ability/need/usefullness, so tracking points and regulating bidding is the only way I can manage it.

edit:
Abyssea lotting rules we use:
http://homingmissile.wowultra.com/forum10/2916.html

Point caps we use based on drop rates:
http://homingmissile.wowultra.com/forum22/2923.html

[Michelob]

I suppose you missed the earlier posts about 15-17 people per Odin with ease.

But if 2-3 people miss for RL each chamber, and you're only taking in 20-22 people per T1/2/3 chamber. You're looking at 6-9 people missing out of a base group of 22-25 people.

So yes, given a shitty rotation (where a lot of people have RL commitments), I would prefer to not have to fight Odin with 13 people.

Not that 13 people is impossible at 80, but still.

People act like it's hard to set aside 30 min twice a week.

To be honest, people seem to miss in chunks. If someone is missing one run, they are likely missing 3-4 straight. With the age of the game and some of the older shells having done HNM since '04, people take breaks. Aside from Christmas time or the like, we are never really missing 2-3 different people per tier but often are missing 3-5 per odin.

[Khory]

People act like it's hard to set aside 30 min twice a week.

Tell me one LS that does Einherjar in 30 minutes.

The fight lasts at most 30 minutes. There is the travel time, there is time for people to change jobs, etc.

Most LSes should be taking 1:30 or 2 hrs for a Einherjar. If you are very organized and set things up ahead of the time, you can be looking at 1hr, assuming no key players have RL issues.

The game has aged, a lot of people have gotten new jobs, moved from time area, gotten a wife/girlfriend, etc. What i mean is - a lot of people have less time for the game than they had 2~6 years ago. For me right now, 4hrs per week is about 1/3rd of my avaliable play time. While i will have more time avaliable soon, it has been this way for the last year or so - leading me to pretty much abandon endgame activities.

Together with that is the fact that people are still doing the same events from 2~6 years ago. And many are bored as hell from it, but we keep at it because its pretty much the only way to get that gear.

So you have people that have less time avaliable and are somewhat bored by the event. Its no wonder that they do have to take some short breaks.

[Neosutra]

I'm pretty harsh on gather time. If gather time is 730pm, people arriving in hazalm at 731 are late and get no credit. Jobs are posted ahead of time. Takes 5 min to form alliances and hand out lamps, and another 7-15 min to clear the chamber. If you're spending 2 hours getting ready for einherhar you're doing it wrong.

[Khory]

Correct me if im wrong.

From your own LS page Neosutra:

"1. Be on LS, INSIDE Halzahm Testing Grounds, 30 min prior to run start time. No exceptions to this rule. The 30 min prior to entry is used for reviewing strat, forming alliances, and organization, not for the last 5 members to finally walk out there. If you know you will be late, or unable to make it, it is imperative that you log out at the Testing Grounds the night before and/or have someone take you. (Also post if you will miss. Repeated absences w/o notification is subject for removal)."

30 Minutes before run time + at most 30 minutes for run means ~1 hour for a run. You do not count the time people will take to walk out there, because people must be there when you start counting time. That is a very good way to deal with lateness, but it doesnt change the fact that people will still have to take 15~20 minutes to get there before the gather time.

So, as you pointed out, you organize the run before, with jobs posted ahead of the time and a strict control on time and you take about 1 hour to 1:15 for each Einherjar.

Sounds like my estimate was pretty spot on.

[Michelob]

I'm pretty harsh on gather time. If gather time is 730pm, people arriving in hazalm at 731 are late and get no credit. Jobs are posted ahead of time. Takes 5 min to form alliances and hand out lamps, and another 7-15 min to clear the chamber. If you're spending 2 hours getting ready for einherhar you're doing it wrong.

I'm with Neo, here. We don't use some "gather xxx minutes before entry" thing. It's more like "Enter @ xxx time so be there". Even on the rare occasion that someone with a feathermule has to be a little late, the average chamber completion time is well under 30 minutes, probably more like 15 minutes or less unless you get some nasty set of mobs or are severely shorthanded.

[FailureMidgard]

I'm pretty harsh on gather time. If gather time is 730pm, people arriving in hazalm at 731 are late and get no credit. Jobs are posted ahead of time. Takes 5 min to form alliances and hand out lamps, and another 7-15 min to clear the chamber. If you're spending 2 hours getting ready for einherhar you're doing it wrong.

Thisx193094903485904385

Worst goddamn thing in FFXI, from my experience, is how goddamn slow people are, and how bad everyone is at being on time to something. Fully agree with Neo that if you're spending that long, you're doing it wrong though.

Correct me if im wrong.

From your own LS page Neosutra:

"1. Be on LS, INSIDE Halzahm Testing Grounds, 30 min prior to run start time. No exceptions to this rule. The 30 min prior to entry is used for reviewing strat, forming alliances, and organization, not for the last 5 members to finally walk out there. If you know you will be late, or unable to make it, it is imperative that you log out at the Testing Grounds the night before and/or have someone take you. (Also post if you will miss. Repeated absences w/o notification is subject for removal)."

30 Minutes before run time + at most 30 minutes for run means ~1 hour for a run. You do not count the time people will take to walk out there, because people must be there when you start counting time. That is a very good way to deal with lateness, but it doesnt change the fact that people will still have to take 15~20 minutes to get there before the gather time.

So, as you pointed out, you organize the run before, with jobs posted ahead of the time and a strict control on time and you take about 1 hour to 1:15 for each Einherjar.

Sounds like my estimate was pretty spot on.

Nah. First off, it only takes slow idiots 30min to get there. I assume Neo's rules were written up a long time ago (for a new group that needed to ya know, what he has listed there), and now it isn't quite that. Say a time to break glass, and let people get there themselves. They can either AFK on the boat however early they want (at which point, it hardly counts as setting a block aside...hop on boat, go make dinner or eat dinner or go to the gym or whatever else you want to do) or just take the 5-10min faster way to get there. Chamber clear rarely takes a full 30min. It really should never be a 1hr event.

[Neosutra]

Yep, what Failure said. Those rules were written back before einherhar was even patched lol.

And it takes maybe 5 min to get to hazalm via dvucle staging point and the ruins, and that's assuming you don't have a synergy friend to make everyone nashmau earrings.

Breaking a few pearls and having a few runs where people don't get credit for being late cuts the bullshit right out.

[Eldelphia]

Einherjar can take up to a 90min slot for me, but mostly because I like to be in the area ahead of time. I have a Nash earring and am encouraging members to come to me to get em made. We still get people late but not many now and often we go without. This week our PLD puller who we knew was logged out in Hazalm texted me before entry time (having warned us he'd be last min) to say he was going to be late and we decided to wait 10-15 rather than change someone. That's pretty unusual. Most peeps are on shell 30-45 mins before enter and almost all are in nashmau/zone 30 before. We usually clear with only a few mins remaining although that is improving weekly for us.

[FailureMidgard]

Einherjar can take up to a 90min slot for me, but mostly because I like to be in the area ahead of time. I have a Nash earring and am encouraging members to come to me to get em made. We still get people late but not many now and often we go without. This week our PLD puller who we knew was logged out in Hazalm texted me before entry time (having warned us he'd be last min) to say he was going to be late and we decided to wait 10-15 rather than change someone. That's pretty unusual. Most peeps are on shell 30-45 mins before enter and almost all are in nashmau/zone 30 before. We usually clear with only a few mins remaining although that is improving weekly for us.

Step 1. Have a bard pull and have the paladin switch to a job that contributes to Ein. Honestly, a bard that can cap stoneskin, blink, and has a PDT set is going to takes less damage during those first couple seconds waiting for sleeps to land than most paladins will, and you're not completely wasting a slot on a puller...

[Neosutra]

That's one area I'd have to disagree.

We do bard swaps so our brds are constantly singing, sleeping, or curing.

I usually pull on pld mostly because I spend most of my time leading the run ("encouraging" people to not be lazy fucks and do their job. Making sure dia3 is being cast on current target, melees are being fast on assists, reminding people what shit to esuna/erase/stun), and pulling. Since 90% of a successful Einherjar is how good of a puller you have.

I guess a Rdm puller would technically be better since they could still refresh and toss out some hastes inbetween pulls, but meh. We bring Pld regardless for things like chair boss and safety net.

[FailureMidgard]

That's one area I'd have to disagree.

We do bard swaps so our brds are constantly singing, sleeping, or curing.

I usually pull on pld mostly because I spend most of my time leading the run ("encouraging" people to not be lazy fucks and do their job. Making sure dia3 is being cast on current target, melees are being fast on assists, reminding people what shit to esuna/erase/stun), and pulling. Since 90% of a successful Einherjar is how good of a puller you have.

I guess a Rdm puller would technically be better since they could still refresh and toss out some hastes inbetween pulls, but meh. We bring Pld regardless for things like chair boss and safety net.

Bard swaps in no way contradicts what I'm saying. I gave a general idea (the puller shouldn't be just pulling) and an example (bard). You do bard swaps? Fine. Do you do 3-party swaps? Or 2-party swaps? If the 2nd, you can give people madrigals if you really want. Or if you do 2-party swaps but have 3 parties, you can give the 3rd party just 2 permanent bards. Or give your blms a bard. If all of this is already done, how about a corsair? Or as you said, a red mage (esp rdm/drks who can't even sleepga or -na)...why have to watch and make sure dia is being cast if you can just cast it yourself (for that matter, 80 pld/whm can haste people, dia2 every mob, at least contribute something...dia3 is nice, but at least ensuring dia2 goes up right away on every mob except the last ~1 on a pull isn't bad). For that matter, I can and have pulled before while on white mage main healing a party. Never died with stoneskin/PDT stuff. I think a haste may have fallen off right at the start of a pull 'cause of it, but it wasn't for more than a few seconds.

Main point is, "wasting" a slot just for a puller is pretty silly. And a paladin is not significantly better than a rdm for kiting the chair guy. WHM can do this fight too.

Also, while I'll agree a large/bad pull can wipe/ruin some group's Ein runs, I don't think being too slow can hurt at all, and anyone who truly is scared of timing out really really shouldn't be wasting a member slot on a dedicated paladin puller. Really, if you pull 5 mobs, kill them all, then have your /assist melee go pull 5 more, you're not gonna time out, so I disagree that pulling is that important as far as keeping a steady flow of mobs goes. It's smoother/clearner/better to do it that way, but it's not important.

[Neosutra]

I guess a more accurate statement would be: My Pld is significantly better for kiting chair guy and for pulling than any rdm we have lol.

We go in with 4 melee parties mostly:

Whm Cor Brd MeleeX3 (yes I know a dnc would be super, we just dont have them, regardless of how much I want them Q.Q).

Whm Cor Brd MeleeX3

Whm Cor Brd MeleeX3

Whm Rdm/drk Brd MeleeX3

Blm X2-3, Pld, Refresher if we have an extra person.

Bards in party 1 and 2 are swapping.

Bards in party 3 and 4 are swapping.

We dont bother with madrigal. The only evasive boss is KB really.

[FailureMidgard]

I guess a more accurate statement would be: My Pld is significantly better for kiting chair guy and for pulling than any rdm we have lol.

That's more a statement towards your RDMs than Aegis/other gear your paladin has though. Especially vs the chair guy. A RDM with a proper gear set should easily be taking same/less damage than your Aegis paladin, and is definitely more survivable vs a mob that's primary damage is magic based (neither sentinel nor invincible will really help you much, whereas native fast cast and chainspell are both amazing...I won't assume anything for your SJ, but if you are /nin you lose stoneskin, and if you aren't /nin you lose shadows (still helps for t4s). A rdm can easily go /nin to Ein, do everything you are doing on your pld + dia3/haste/refresh/etc as you said).

We go in with 4 melee parties mostly:

Whm Cor Brd MeleeX3 (yes I know a dnc would be super, we just dont have them, regardless of how much I want them Q.Q).

Whm Cor Brd MeleeX3

Whm Cor Brd MeleeX3

Whm Rdm/drk Brd MeleeX3

Blm X2-3, Pld, Refresher if we have an extra person.

Bards in party 1 and 2 are swapping.

Bards in party 3 and 4 are swapping.

We dont bother with madrigal. The only evasive boss is KB really.

I'd say make a cor pull, or the rdm/drk or whm in the rdm/drk's party. Past that, I'd also say the rdm/drk may as well be the refresh for the blm party, least that's how we've generally done it (and he could still pull really). And, I don't mean you should actually change it if you're doing fine and never have problems - who cares. But when someone posts they have to wait 20minutes because it's that or wait a while anyway to have someone switch to paladin to pull, and they get close to timing out, they definitely have room to optimize things, and not bringing a paladin just to pull is optimizing.

[Eldelphia]

Step 1. Have a bard pull and have the paladin switch to a job that contributes to Ein. Honestly, a bard that can cap stoneskin, blink, and has a PDT set is going to takes less damage during those first couple seconds waiting for sleeps to land than most paladins will, and you're not completely wasting a slot on a puller...

That's what we used to do and it doesn't work so well for us. We just use a PLD Puller in Wing 3 in case of chair dude. We don't use a PLD in Wing I or II. Things are much smoother and faster now and our puller is a) good and b) self sufficient. We have zero relics or anything special. Since we switched to a PLD pulling/holding (not that anything lives long enough now) our success rate has gone through the roof. We also don't have a ton of CORs to throw at things either. Last weekend we had 2x COR and 2x BRD. /shrug we just don't have the job flexibility although normally we have at least a BRD for every party. We try and go in with RDM, WHM, BRD, DD, DD, DD parties; a PLD for WIng III and a BLM or 2.

We're totally not the most experienced, efficient or exciting shell out there - but we're doing it. We've tried so many things, taken a lot of advice from here and elsewhere and the only thing that really helped is ramming home speed of entry and that we need to hit things very hard and very fast.

We also decided to wait because the guy has one of the top attendance records in the shell and usually doesn't let us down.

[Michelob]

Eh, we use a fulltime puller, too. Ours is a Mandau THF, though, which is also quite useful on bosses. Feint and some DD.

[thetruepandagod]

I guess my ls is the only one that actually pulls everything that is up at the same time instead of pulling small bits and pieces of the group?

[Neosutra]

I guess my ls is the only one that actually pulls everything that is up at the same time instead of pulling small bits and pieces of the group?

Depends on mob type.

If it isnt Bombs, caster mobs, black dragons, or mobs that resist sleep, it's "how fast can you get the shit here".

If it's one of the above, I usually pull in chunks to ensure proper strats are being used (silence/stun black dragons, silence/sleep overwrite/etc for casters, WS under 50% for logi).

I forgot we were doing a T1 about a few runs ago and ran into the middle of the room while typing (aggroing everything and the boss) and turned the nice 5 min run into a bit of excitement as we cleared all 24 mobs and boss together lol. Guess spicing things up is occasionally fun >.>.

[FailureMidgard]

I guess my ls is the only one that actually pulls everything that is up at the same time instead of pulling small bits and pieces of the group?

We try to, but ya know, when you try to pull em all, someone fails to link shit, and when you don't, they link the entire room.

In the end though, we just pull whatever, don't go out of our way to link or not link generally. Shit dies entirely too fast to pull 4 mobs at a time.

[Michelob]

I guess my ls is the only one that actually pulls everything that is up at the same time instead of pulling small bits and pieces of the group?

On tier 1's sure. On tier 2/3 it depends on the mobs. Been farming Einherjar with around 18 lately so pulling 5-7 mobs at a time works pretty well, unless its those bombs that dont like to sleep or something similar.