Concern about BG Wiki

[Ashira]

And uh, opinion isn't bad per se (if it's backed up by at least something), but a wiki is not the place to turn into a flame war. That's more of a forum thing >_>

As long as stuff like "only noobs wipe to LBC" or "if you take a full alliance to that NM, your shell sucks" aren't present, I don't really have objection to reasonable opinion. Everyone starts somewhere, and while we'd all like to say we were taken into the first great HNMLS of our respective servers that we applied to, that's not always the case. Some of us have had to wade through the dredges until applications get taken again, they demanded you had certain gear pieces that may've required time in less optimal shells since they can't be bought or soloed beforehand, and so on.

Keep that kind of crap in line and I can see people being won over. To be fair, I don't really see it as a competition so much as simple evolution, though.

Is this why people think endgame shells are elitist - or more specifically, why BG and people that frequent their forums are elitist? I guess I can see that, and I suppose that makes sense.

But usually it's more of the fact that they may ask members have this gear that they want because the shell itself does not participate in the event much anymore and don't want to frustrate members by not being able to offer them gear pieces they do actually want.

But just because there are those among the people who will be the biggest contributors to the wiki who demand more discerning qualifications from people that ask to join them doesn't mean they will not be able to provide good information, with a real knowledge and understanding of the game mechanics behind a lot of things in game. We not only know what works, but many know WHY it works, and being able to provide that sort of information should hopefully help those looking up the information figure out even more possibilities.

I'm not about to edit a page and be like 'wtf are you fighting this with a full alliance for,' because while I know my shell can beat things with far less, at the right prime times we'll have over a full alliance at some things. So I can't be in there making that judgment call, because there are times we just have that surplus, and still use them all.

[LinktheDeme]

I probably just ignored past it but whats the link to this new BG wiki?

[Lujei]

I'm personally against the use of memes on certain pages of this Wiki. I looked at the old one, for whatever reason, because it tended to be clean of comments (see: Alla) that were of very little use to the item, quest, monster, and whatever. For example, if I was to look to a page with Tiamat, I don't want to see anything about Fire Crystals, I want to see her abilities, possibly an assumed HP, spawn times, and the total drop list. Keep memes to the boards, they don't really have a place where it is meant to be "professional."

[Shinryuu]

I'm personally against the use of memes on certain pages of this Wiki. I looked at the old one, for whatever reason, because it tended to be clean of comments (see: Alla) that were of very little use to the item, quest, monster, and whatever. For example, if I was to look to a page with Tiamat, I don't want to see anything about Fire Crystals, I want to see her abilities, possibly an assumed HP, spawn times, and the total drop list. Keep memes to the boards, they don't really have a place where it is meant to be "professional."

There are no girls on the internet, silly.

I agree with your post, and I think that's why there should be a 'Wiki discussion' forum of some sorts here. Heated debates don't work via a wiki. It can get really messy.

[Ghost_Wheel22]

I'm personally against the use of memes on certain pages of this Wiki. I looked at the old one, for whatever reason, because it tended to be clean of comments (see: Alla) that were of very little use to the item, quest, monster, and whatever. For example, if I was to look to a page with Tiamat, I don't want to see anything about Fire Crystals, I want to see her abilities, possibly an assumed HP, spawn times, and the total drop list. Keep memes to the boards, they don't really have a place where it is meant to be "professional."

Information would come first. Memes and other flavor text would be in its own box near the bottom.

[Khamsin]

I'm personally against the use of memes on certain pages of this Wiki. I looked at the old one, for whatever reason, because it tended to be clean of comments (see: Alla) that were of very little use to the item, quest, monster, and whatever. For example, if I was to look to a page with Tiamat, I don't want to see anything about Fire Crystals, I want to see her abilities, possibly an assumed HP, spawn times, and the total drop list. Keep memes to the boards, they don't really have a place where it is meant to be "professional."

Information would come first. Memes and other flavor text would be in its own box near the bottom.

Kinda like the standard Trivia section in articles on the normal wikipedia? Only instead of Trivia, it would be Memes.

[Shadowrunner]

I'm personally against the use of memes on certain pages of this Wiki. I looked at the old one, for whatever reason, because it tended to be clean of comments (see: Alla) that were of very little use to the item, quest, monster, and whatever. For example, if I was to look to a page with Tiamat, I don't want to see anything about Fire Crystals, I want to see her abilities, possibly an assumed HP, spawn times, and the total drop list. Keep memes to the boards, they don't really have a place where it is meant to be "professional."

Information would come first. Memes and other flavor text would be in its own box near the bottom.

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/Bifrons - Just the way I like it <3 lol (This is only cuz the Random Page function made me lol. I have faith in BGWiki)

[Thevaultdweller]

Maybe there could be a separate section of the wiki which explains some history of the BG shell and forums? It could include explanations for some of the quirks of the forums, such as memes and synopses of epic dramaz.

[Khamsin]

Someone will also need to write an accurate article about FFXIclopedia on the BG wiki, complete with backup. Maybe Taj could do that.

[Spider-Dan]

I mentioned this in the other announcement thread, but I guess it makes more sense here:

Why isn't the BGwiki GFDL? Not to get too much of a free vs. proprietary argument, but I don't see any benefit to closing off the wiki. Plus, if it's GFDL, that means that BGwiki can instantly copy any and all of the useful data the community has already put into ffxiclopedia (with no legal worries) without having to try to reinvent the wheel with a mega-thesaurus to avoid legal gotchas.

Plus, the ultimate accountability to the community is being able to take our community knowledge and move on if things go sour (see: current events). Not that I doubt BG admins' intent, but sh*t happens; people quit the game (or have to quit), free hosting deals change, etc. For all the negatives about the ffxiclopedia deal, the one good thing is that their choice to go GFDL from the start means that they can't lock up the community's work.

[Sagacious Sundi]

I remember seeing a template on Wikipedia that indicated the article was written humourously; perhaps we can do something like that?

[Milkymallards]

Is this why people think endgame shells are elitist - or more specifically, why BG and people that frequent their forums are elitist? I guess I can see that, and I suppose that makes sense.

Speaking as a total newbie to these forums, and therefore with no authority whatsoever, I think the place can sometimes give off an air of impatience with those who haven't accomplished the most difficult things that ffxi has to offer. There are times when any outsider can be made to feel like they are a total retard for not knowing things/not having done things, when perhaps some of them are simply lacking in experience.

This is why I think an open BGwiki is a great idea. It's showing an active willingness to share the undoubted expertise this community has to offer with people who really want to benefit from that knowledge. Hopefully, if successful, a well-maintained BGwiki can accomplish two things. Firstly it can provide a place for players who really want to get better at the game to learn the things they need to know, from the people who probably know it better than most. Secondly, it could eradicate any reputation this forum has for elitism or snobbery, because this is really a selfless act as it stands, purely for the benefit of ffxi at large. I'm sure there are people here who simply will not care what anybody else things of BG, but it never hurt to extend the odd olive branch every now and then. Especially in the wake of the whole ffxiclopedia drama, it would be nice if everybody else in the ffxi world could show themselves to be bigger than that.

[Khamsin]

I think the elitist air that BG gives off, and impatience with people who haven't had endgame experience, is because BG forums are about discussing things that are of interest to fellow endgame players. If you haven't experienced those things, and aren't interested in or able to keep up with the discussions, then you're in the wrong place.

Imagine two forums, one based around a community of people who enjoy discussing analogies, and the other based around a community of people who enjoy discussing pies. Now, if someone from the pie forum decides to go lurk on the analogy forum, and starts talking about how they wish they talked more about pies and asked stupid questions regarding analogies, the analogy forum people would tell the pie guy to gtfo.

Likewise, if one of the analogy forum people went to the pie forum, and started making analogies using pies, the pie forum people would probably rate him down and tell him they don't care about analogies using pies, and are happy enough just discussing how to make them.

Now, that doesn't mean that someone without experience making analogies can't go to the analogy forum and learn a few things. Just don't spout off that you're from the pie forum, and you think they don't give enough attention to pies.

[Yutuyu]

I think the elitist air that BG gives off, and impatience with people who haven't had endgame experience, is because BG forums are about discussing things that are of interest to fellow endgame players. If you haven't experienced those things, and aren't interested in or able to keep up with the discussions, then you're in the wrong place.

There's also an unneccessary harshness and standoffishness in debates around here that turns a lot of people off. You say one slight thing others don't agree with and often you'll have people hurling "omg urso retarded" at you. You just need to get used to the way things go around here and grow a thicker skin; which some people simply aren't capable of.

Though to me the most irritating thing is the unforgiving attitude towards minor brainfarts. Rarely if ever are people given the benefit of the doubt. (unless they're popular)

[arus2001]

And uh, opinion isn't bad per se (if it's backed up by at least something), but a wiki is not the place to turn into a flame war. That's more of a forum thing >_>

As long as stuff like "only noobs wipe to LBC" or "if you take a full alliance to that NM, your shell sucks" aren't present, I don't really have objection to reasonable opinion. Everyone starts somewhere, and while we'd all like to say we were taken into the first great HNMLS of our respective servers that we applied to, that's not always the case. Some of us have had to wade through the dredges until applications get taken again, they demanded you had certain gear pieces that may've required time in less optimal shells since they can't be bought or soloed beforehand, and so on.

Keep that kind of crap in line and I can see people being won over. To be fair, I don't really see it as a competition so much as simple evolution, though.

Is this why people think endgame shells are elitist - or more specifically, why BG and people that frequent their forums are elitist? I guess I can see that, and I suppose that makes sense.

But usually it's more of the fact that they may ask members have this gear that they want because the shell itself does not participate in the event much anymore and don't want to frustrate members by not being able to offer them gear pieces they do actually want.

But just because there are those among the people who will be the biggest contributors to the wiki who demand more discerning qualifications from people that ask to join them doesn't mean they will not be able to provide good information, with a real knowledge and understanding of the game mechanics behind a lot of things in game. We not only know what works, but many know WHY it works, and being able to provide that sort of information should hopefully help those looking up the information figure out even more possibilities.

I'm not about to edit a page and be like 'wtf are you fighting this with a full alliance for,' because while I know my shell can beat things with far less, at the right prime times we'll have over a full alliance at some things. So I can't be in there making that judgment call, because there are times we just have that surplus, and still use them all.

I think what I was trying to get at is there's an implied point of no return, of sorts. I mean, sure, I could take a couple buddies and claim Tiamat if it pops, but we're not going to kill it. Could see a TP move or two. Maybe eat a good Firaga. Stuff that might help build a foundation of knowledge, and when pieced together can create a complete understanding. However, some like to believe that since you've not helped bring said mob's HP to zero, you have no say and are ultimately a waste of space. And even if you do kill it, you may still be looked down upon for not doing it "their way."

Just as some "zammites" don't deserve to be treated as the lowest common denominator, not every habitual BG-goer has their nose so high up in the clouds they run the risk of breathing in a satellite. Unfortunately, both ends are treated as the norm and I think it's really inane. There's a slim possibility this stigma could be nipped if done right, but when I see mods even partaking in the behavior, I don't think it'll ever happen. It's just high school during lunch time where the jocks sit at one table while the nerds congregate at another all over again.

There's also an unneccessary harshness and standoffishness in debates around here that turns a lot of people off. You say one slight thing others don't agree with and often you'll have people hurling "omg urso retarded" at you. You just need to get used to the way things go around here and grow a thicker skin; which some people simply aren't capable of.

Though to me the most irritating thing is the unforgiving attitude towards minor brainfarts. Rarely if ever are people given the benefit of the doubt. (unless they're popular)

I don't even think it's so much a case of needing thicker skin. Playing off the jock/nerd thing again, it's like some people simply don't feel complete without administering the daily wedgie to the resident poindexter. They might deserve it. They might not. It just happens way too often and can create an inhospitable sea of egos.

[Mifaco]

I mentioned this in the other announcement thread, but I guess it makes more sense here:

Why isn't the BGwiki GFDL? Not to get too much of a free vs. proprietary argument, but I don't see any benefit to closing off the wiki. Plus, if it's GFDL, that means that BGwiki can instantly copy any and all of the useful data the community has already put into ffxiclopedia (with no legal worries) without having to try to reinvent the wheel with a mega-thesaurus to avoid legal gotchas.

Plus, the ultimate accountability to the community is being able to take our community knowledge and move on if things go sour (see: current events). Not that I doubt BG admins' intent, but sh*t happens; people quit the game (or have to quit), free hosting deals change, etc. For all the negatives about the ffxiclopedia deal, the one good thing is that their choice to go GFDL from the start means that they can't lock up the community's work.

I have to wonder why BGwiki isn't GFDL, Sonomaa mentioned something about BGwiki being a "don't steal our shit" license, but it would make life a lot simpler if BGwiki was GFDL and we could get all the content we contributed to FFXIwiki (with a link back for attribution, as the GFDL requires).

[alphacat]

But usually it's more of the fact that they may ask members have this gear that they want because the shell itself does not participate in the event much anymore and don't want to frustrate members by not being able to offer them gear pieces they do actually want.

Ash, it's people like you who cheer me up. That actually made me smile.

But seriously, leaders not wanting to disappoint people is NOT the reason they reject applicants. XD

[alphacat]

Speaking as a total newbie to these forums, and therefore with no authority whatsoever, I think the place can sometimes give off an air of impatience with those who haven't accomplished the most difficult things that ffxi has to offer. There are times when any outsider can be made to feel like they are a total retard for not knowing things/not having done things, when perhaps some of them are simply lacking in experience.

Basically if you want a good answer, do the following before you make a post:
1. Use the search function.
2. Post in the correct forum.

For example, a post asking "Does Skadi feet give higher speed+ than W legs?" will probably mean you will be flamed regardless of the forum you post it in. Just do a simple search before you post to avoid embarrassment. Otherwise, if you simply post in the Newbie forum, generally you get your answer promptly and from pretty reliable people.

I think the biggest confusion people have when they come here is the inability to understand how BG defines "Newbie" and "Advanced", thus making people frustrated when they post stuff in advanced and get flamed.

[Xavier]

While the BG forums may have an air of elitism, the wiki will not.

You're going to get the wide range of competent and very detailed endgame knowledge without the attitude people have come to expect. The forums are a place for discussion and thus lend themselves naturally to debate and criticism, whereas, the wiki is a straight source of information and will be presented in such a way.

Simply put, if you want nothing but information, visit the BG-wiki, whereas, if you're looking to debate a subject and open yourself up to "stfu newb" like mentality, visit the forums. There will not be "memes" on every Wiki page. If they appear at all, they'll be on a "History of BG" section, which attempts to explain various aspects of the forums for new visitors, and hopefully stop them from getting flamed on arrival.

Our greatest asset (and I say that about all BG forum users, not the BG LS in particular) is our thorough understanding of gameplay mechanics and their application towards various endgame activities. I do not question why people feel BG is elitist, because it is, but when you remove the bickering from the conversation, you're left with very good, accurate information. Thats the mission for the BG-Wiki, and I hope people both understand and appreciate that we're aiming to establish a fully developed, non-elitist aspect of the BG community.

We're still in the early stages of setting the Wiki up, creating page formats and the like, but expect more announcements/finalization of plans in the coming days/week.

[Plow]

For example, if I was to look to a page with Tiamat, I don't want to see anything about Fire Crystals, I want to see her abilities, possibly an assumed HP, spawn times, and the total drop list.

a. make up your mind



b. people fighting tiamat don't wanna see anything about fire crystals either, but not much choice eh? welcome to ffxi