Dancer

[LinktheDeme]

By signature moves and abilities, I don't specifically mean a certain move that has to be there. I mean the basic qualities of how the job works.

In every incarnation of a particular job throughout the FF series, every job has changed slightly in its spell repertoire, abilities, etc. yet they still keep their defining qualities such that you know they're that job without even seeing their job name. For example, if we saw a Geomancer preview for the next job in FFXI, but they didn't tell us the name, we'd still know it was Geomancer just from seeing it in action. Despite whether or not they have the same exact spell names they used in past FFs.

That's what I mean by signature moves and abilities. Not that BLU doesn't have White Wind, but that we know a BLU by heart when we see one in action. We know a WHM or BLM when we see one. We know a Geomancer when we see one.

Songstress did nothing similar to what Dancer had ever done before. It did everything similar to what Bard had done before, however. The only thing Songstress ever did to make anyone think it was a Dancer hybrid was dance, and believe it or not, a dancing animation isn't the defining quality of Dancer. If you put a Geomancer in white robes with red triangles and give him a WHM casting animation, that still wouldn't make it a WHM when you see it using Geomancer abilities. Like I said, I can point out similarities between Songstress and Bard without resorting to "but she sings!". Can you do the same without resorting to "but she dances!"? Besides, in FFX-2, pretty much every job danced at some point during its animation. It's FFX-2. lol

Because in FFXI every job has clearly done the exact same roll as previous FFs?

Samurai does not use GP toss
Ninja was never a damage mitagion job.
Bard. . . . with the exception of FFT never did too much to support

Songstress in FFX-2 Debuffed and buffed which is a part of what dancers did in FFT (Debuff). Just because the types of debuffs arent all exactly the same it still had the same qualities of a support job in ffxi. Your example of geomancer looking like a white mage and then being called a white mage is on a totally different scale because they are doing nothing near the same function. It doesn't matter what the spell is called as long as it has the same function, for all i care they could name Cure in the next FF Cuminyourmouth and if it still heals HP proportionate to a cure type move then the job that casts that will be considered a whm.

[Khamsin]

By signature moves and abilities, I don't specifically mean a certain move that has to be there. I mean the basic qualities of how the job works.

In every incarnation of a particular job throughout the FF series, every job has changed slightly in its spell repertoire, abilities, etc. yet they still keep their defining qualities such that you know they're that job without even seeing their job name. For example, if we saw a Geomancer preview for the next job in FFXI, but they didn't tell us the name, we'd still know it was Geomancer just from seeing it in action. Despite whether or not they have the same exact spell names they used in past FFs.

That's what I mean by signature moves and abilities. Not that BLU doesn't have White Wind, but that we know a BLU by heart when we see one in action. We know a WHM or BLM when we see one. We know a Geomancer when we see one.

Songstress did nothing similar to what Dancer had ever done before. It did everything similar to what Bard had done before, however. The only thing Songstress ever did to make anyone think it was a Dancer hybrid was dance, and believe it or not, a dancing animation isn't the defining quality of Dancer. If you put a Geomancer in white robes with red triangles and give him a WHM casting animation, that still wouldn't make it a WHM when you see it using Geomancer abilities. Like I said, I can point out similarities between Songstress and Bard without resorting to "but she sings!". Can you do the same without resorting to "but she dances!"? Besides, in FFX-2, pretty much every job danced at some point during its animation. It's FFX-2. lol

Because in FFXI every job has clearly done the exact same roll as previous FFs?

Samurai does not use GP toss
Ninja was never a damage mitagion job.
Bard. . . . with the exception of FFT never did too much to support

Songstress in FFX-2 Debuffed and buffed which is a part of what dancers did in FFT (Debuff). Just because the types of debuffs arent all exactly the same it still had the same qualities of a support job in ffxi. Your example of geomancer looking like a white mage and then being called a white mage is on a totally different scale because they are doing nothing near the same function. It doesn't matter what the spell is called as long as it has the same function, for all i care they could name Cure in the next FF Cuminyourmouth and if it still heals HP proportionate to a cure type move then the job that casts that will be considered a whm.

That's why I said "By signature moves and abilities, I don't specifically mean a certain move that has to be there. I mean the basic qualities of how the job works."

Just because SAM doesn't have Gil Toss doesn't mean we don't recognize a SAM when we see one.

Bard was support in FFV. In fact, that's about all it was. FFT doesn't even need to come into the picture anywhere.

And the FFV Ninja still had blink, as did the FFIV Ninja. It wasn't used as a damage mitigation job in those games because those games didn't need them to be used in that way.

As for:

Your example of geomancer looking like a white mage and then being called a white mage is on a totally different scale because they are doing nothing near the same function.

That's exactly the case between Dancer and Songstress. They are doing nothing near the same function. Songstress literally is miles away from what Dancer had ever done. Dancer had never ever buffed before. Even in FFT. And if you take away FFT (since, like I said, FF has never borrowed anything from FFT before until the name "Ivalice" in FF12), Dancer had never even debuffed before. Unless you call Charm debuff.

[BRP]

My speculation is better than your speculation!

[Sera]

My speculation is better than your speculation!

/divisor mode

NAH UH

/end divisor mode

[Khamsin]

My speculation is better than your speculation!

/divisor mode

NAH UH

/end divisor mode

/taj mode

*moves you to Leviathan and renames you Rukenshin*

/end taj mode

[Sera]

My speculation is better than your speculation!

/divisor mode

NAH UH

/end divisor mode

/taj mode

*moves you to Leviathan and renames you Rykoshet*

/end taj mode

[Spira]

The only thing Songstress ever did to make anyone think it was a Dancer hybrid was dance, and believe it or not, a dancing animation isn't the defining quality of Dancer. If you put a Geomancer in white robes with red triangles and give him a WHM casting animation, that still wouldn't make it a WHM when you see it using Geomancer abilities. Like I said, I can point out similarities between Songstress and Bard without resorting to "but she sings!". Can you do the same without resorting to "but she dances!"? Besides, in FFX-2, pretty much every job danced at some point during its animation. It's FFX-2. lol

Dancing is all they need to justify dancer. Its as simple as that really.

And singing/playing instruments is all that is needed to justify Bard. The song repertoire only happens to do similar effects.

Look at other job examples:
Dia in FF1 was WHM only - did damage to undead only.
Haste in FF1 and 2 is Black Magic, White Magic in 3-4, Time Magic in 5, just magic in 6-8, White Magic again in 9-11 and Time Magic in 12. From 1-3, its effect is totally different that what we know it to be.
Aero has been classified as White Magic, Blue Magic and Black Magic in various FF games.
RDMs and BLM in FF1 had spells called Temper and Saber that directly increases Attack.
WHM could cast Invisible in FF1 and it would directly raise evasion.
Ultima was a white magic spell in FF2 and a black magic spell in X.
Flare was always non-elemental until XI came along.
Bahamut was always summonable since 3 until XI came along.
Dragoons could never call pets ever before.
"Enspelling" was the speciality of Sorcerers in FFV, tho Steiner could just do it too with Vivi in PT in FFIX.
Summoning and White Magic came hand in hand in FFIX.

If we just base it on the similarity of spell/ability repertoire to prior series entries that you're suggesting, alot of spells are either in the wrong place or the jobs inproperly named, which is of course, not true.

You're also biased against X-2 anyways. None of the other jobs danced than Songstress.. maybe jiggle abit, but not really dance.

[Khamsin]

The only thing Songstress ever did to make anyone think it was a Dancer hybrid was dance, and believe it or not, a dancing animation isn't the defining quality of Dancer. If you put a Geomancer in white robes with red triangles and give him a WHM casting animation, that still wouldn't make it a WHM when you see it using Geomancer abilities. Like I said, I can point out similarities between Songstress and Bard without resorting to "but she sings!". Can you do the same without resorting to "but she dances!"? Besides, in FFX-2, pretty much every job danced at some point during its animation. It's FFX-2. lol

Dancing is all they need to justify dancer. Its as simple as that really.

And singing/playing instruments is all that is needed to justify Bard. The song repertoire only happens to do similar effects.

Look at other job examples:
Dia in FF1 was WHM only - did damage to undead only.
Haste in FF1 and 2 is Black Magic, White Magic in 3-4, Time Magic in 5, just magic in 6-8, White Magic again in 9-11 and Time Magic in 12. From 1-3, its effect is totally different that what we know it to be.
Aero has been classified as White Magic, Blue Magic and Black Magic in various FF games.
RDMs and BLM in FF1 had spells called Temper and Saber that directly increases Attack.
WHM could cast Invisible in FF1 and it would directly raise evasion.
Ultima was a white magic spell in FF2 and a black magic spell in X.
Flare was always non-elemental until XI came along.
Bahamut was always summonable since 3 until XI came along.
Dragoons could never call pets ever before.
"Enspelling" was the speciality of Sorcerers in FFV, tho Steiner could just do it too with Vivi in PT in FFIX.
Summoning and White Magic came hand in hand in FFIX.

If we just base it on the similarity of spell/ability repertoire to prior series entries that you're suggesting, alot of spells are either in the wrong place or the jobs inproperly named, which is of course, not true.

You're also biased against X-2 anyways. None of the other jobs danced than Songstress.. maybe jiggle abit, but not really dance.

That's like saying all it takes to be a WHM is have the WHM casting animation, regardless of what it does.

BRD in FFXI dances a little while singing, too. It does sort of a little butt-wiggle.

I guess my point is simply that I don't really consider the animation for a character the deciding factor on what sort of past job it most closely resembles. Afterall, its Songstress, not Bard or Dancer. Maybe it was never meant to be either. But just having a dancing animation isn't what makes a dancer a dancer, to me. To me, its based more on what the job does and what the job has done in the past. Now, if they called Songstress Dancer, there'd be no argument. It'd be obvious that they redefined Dancer into being a buffer. But since they didn't, there's no telling what their intent was. But it's far fetched to say they intended Songstress to be like a Dancer, when a Dancer had never ever buffed in the entire history of FF before. Sure, some of Mog's Geomancer moves healed the party or something, but Dancer had never been anything close to a buffer, let alone a reliable buffer, before. I'm sure nobody ever used Mog with the intent of buffing the party, either. Songstress, on the other hand, was a specialized buffer that was very reliable, too.

[LinktheDeme]

By signature moves and abilities, I don't specifically mean a certain move that has to be there. I mean the basic qualities of how the job works.

In every incarnation of a particular job throughout the FF series, every job has changed slightly in its spell repertoire, abilities, etc. yet they still keep their defining qualities such that you know they're that job without even seeing their job name. For example, if we saw a Geomancer preview for the next job in FFXI, but they didn't tell us the name, we'd still know it was Geomancer just from seeing it in action. Despite whether or not they have the same exact spell names they used in past FFs.

That's what I mean by signature moves and abilities. Not that BLU doesn't have White Wind, but that we know a BLU by heart when we see one in action. We know a WHM or BLM when we see one. We know a Geomancer when we see one.

Songstress did nothing similar to what Dancer had ever done before. It did everything similar to what Bard had done before, however. The only thing Songstress ever did to make anyone think it was a Dancer hybrid was dance, and believe it or not, a dancing animation isn't the defining quality of Dancer. If you put a Geomancer in white robes with red triangles and give him a WHM casting animation, that still wouldn't make it a WHM when you see it using Geomancer abilities. Like I said, I can point out similarities between Songstress and Bard without resorting to "but she sings!". Can you do the same without resorting to "but she dances!"? Besides, in FFX-2, pretty much every job danced at some point during its animation. It's FFX-2. lol

Because in FFXI every job has clearly done the exact same roll as previous FFs?

Samurai does not use GP toss
Ninja was never a damage mitagion job.
Bard. . . . with the exception of FFT never did too much to support

Songstress in FFX-2 Debuffed and buffed which is a part of what dancers did in FFT (Debuff). Just because the types of debuffs arent all exactly the same it still had the same qualities of a support job in ffxi. Your example of geomancer looking like a white mage and then being called a white mage is on a totally different scale because they are doing nothing near the same function. It doesn't matter what the spell is called as long as it has the same function, for all i care they could name Cure in the next FF Cuminyourmouth and if it still heals HP proportionate to a cure type move then the job that casts that will be considered a whm.

That's why I said "By signature moves and abilities, I don't specifically mean a certain move that has to be there. I mean the basic qualities of how the job works."

Just because SAM doesn't have Gil Toss doesn't mean we don't recognize a SAM when we see one.

Bard was support in FFV. In fact, that's about all it was. FFT doesn't even need to come into the picture anywhere.

And the FFV Ninja still had blink, as did the FFIV Ninja. It wasn't used as a damage mitigation job in those games because those games didn't need them to be used in that way.

As for:

Your example of geomancer looking like a white mage and then being called a white mage is on a totally different scale because they are doing nothing near the same function.

That's exactly the case between Dancer and Songstress. They are doing nothing near the same function. Songstress literally is miles away from what Dancer had ever done. Dancer had never ever buffed before. Even in FFT. And if you take away FFT (since, like I said, FF has never borrowed anything from FFT before until the name "Ivalice" in FF12), Dancer had never even debuffed before. Unless you call Charm debuff.

Dancer also has only been in about 2 games total so FFXI can twist and turn it anyway. If its gonna be a support char its going to be able to debuff and buff (most likely debuffing more than buffing since our last support was more towards buffing). Otherwise it'll have to be able to do something insane to make it playable without being able to do both. Or they could just make dancer the pup of WOTG.(I Don't say drgs anymore cause there half decent since the 2h patch )

[kuronosan]

I'm pretty sure both Edge and Shadow had forms of Utsusemi.

[Charismatic]

I'm pretty sure both Edge and Shadow had forms of Utsusemi.

Image is also a command in FFV, works similar to Utsusemi.

[jackalboy]

any attempts at assigning traditional FF jobs to the characters (e.g. Sabin as MNK, or Locke as THF) are conceptual at best.

One of the points im making is that if you are to reasonably exclude BOTH X-2 and VI Dancers then you have no basis for making a trend. You cant determine a trend from 1 past example. You need at least 2.

1) Locke is a treasure hunter... not a thief
2) He's trying to discount 3 dancers... VI, X-2, and tactics. If somebody's going to discount tactics because it's not numbered then fine, but it does have many similarities with the rest of FF universe: enough so that i'd consider it a full fledged addition, just in a different type world.

It's another excuse for all of the men playing girl characters to flirt more realistically over the internet.

Aww, did someone's widdle heart get bwoken by a cute manthwa? Poooor baaaaaaby.
Now shut up. That's the dumbest thing I have ever heard of.

You know what allows men playing female characters to flirt more realistically over the internet?
Stupid, desperate men who need to get out more.

QFT, and it sounds like Epidemic is just making such a fuss cause he can't come to terms with his own sexuality. Classic case of self-loathing? (saying he loves the cock )

[Priran]

QFT, and it sounds like Epidemic is just making such a fuss cause he can't come to terms with his own sexuality. Classic case of self-loathing? (saying he loves the cock )

ok so now that zombie freud has risen from the dead to express his expert psychological opinion, can we officially declare this the worst thread ever, lock it, and forget it ever happened?

[Khamsin]

any attempts at assigning traditional FF jobs to the characters (e.g. Sabin as MNK, or Locke as THF) are conceptual at best.

One of the points im making is that if you are to reasonably exclude BOTH X-2 and VI Dancers then you have no basis for making a trend. You cant determine a trend from 1 past example. You need at least 2.

1) Locke is a treasure hunter... not a thief
2) He's trying to discount 3 dancers... VI, X-2, and tactics. If somebody's going to discount tactics because it's not numbered then fine, but it does have many similarities with the rest of FF universe: enough so that i'd consider it a full fledged addition, just in a different type world.

I'm not trying to discount 3 dancers, I'm trying to discount 1 (Tactics).

Songstress is Songstress and Mog was more of a Geomancer than anything. Unless the FFXI version is going to be like Mog (i.e. Geomancer abilities), then there's really no comparison.

I don't see any connection between Dancer and Songstress whatsoever. Like I said, Songstress and Dancer do completely different things. Even if you count Tactics, Songstress is entirely different than anything Dancer had done before.

So you can't say I'm trying to discount "the FFX-2 Dancer" because FFX-2 didn't have the Dancer job. You may as well be claiming that I'm trying to discount 12 Dancers, such as Cid in FF4 or Steiner in FF9.

[Spira]

ultimately, you dont think that just having a dance animation is what defines a Dancer.
We do.

And either way, it doesnt matter.

Let's just end this portion of the discussion yea?

[LD]

Honestly, I think you're both right.
Dancer has defining characteristics beyond dancing (Strictly speaking, it has mostly been a debuffer), but it would basically just be another job, no matter how it functioned, if dancing wasn't somehow incorporated.

So yea....good use of time.

[kuronosan]

Songstress is Songstress and Mog was more of a Geomancer than anything. Unless the FFXI version is going to be like Mog (i.e. Geomancer abilities), then there's really no comparison.

Mog's Dances were a combination of dance and Geomancy, but I'm guessing you were just too blind to see that all of his "Dances" (that's right, his job ability was "Dance") were based on actual songs that you dance to (such as Water Rondo).

Mog was more of a Dancer with Geomancer qualities than anything.

Not to mention when he did dance, he had a chance to stumble and fail, complete with dance and stumble animations.

[Alistaire]

Summoning and White Magic came hand in hand in FFIX.

And Rydia the summoner was inherently a black mage in FFIV. Until she went away and came back as an adult after spending time in the avatars' world and lost her ability to cast black magic while gaining white magic.

[Spira]

lol you really need to replay FFIV.

[Kael]

Summoning and White Magic came hand in hand in FFIX.

And Rydia the summoner was inherently a black mage in FFIV. Until she went away and came back as an adult after spending time in the avatars' world and lost her ability to cast black magic while gaining white magic.

You got that reversed. She was BLM And SMN combined when she returned. She lost her ability to use White Magic.