Invincible hate loss?

[Ganondorf]

It wasn't until recently that I regularly began tanking stuff as PLD/NIN. I've been playing PLD pretty much since the PS2 release, but I never got into HNM and PLD/NIN tanking until recently. Granted I haven't done anything huge, but I have gotten a lot of practice solo, as well as in real groups for Sky gods, Limbus, KSNM99 Wyrm etc; and I come /NIN to most events just to get more practice.

For the most part I know how to work my hate, and i feel I do pretty well. But a few times now, on longer fights that actually permit /NIN I have lost hate immediately after using Invincible (which I really don't use it unless I feel i have to, or if I don't have any other hate-generating abilites up at the time). The first time I noticed it was during our LS's first Proto-Omega. I was tanking fine, but my JAs were used up and flash wasn't quite ready. It was towards the end of the fight, so i just popped Invincible. Before that I really felt like hate was planted very firmly on me, but the second I hit my 2-hr, Omega switched right over to the other PLD, who really was only there as backup, moderately geared, and I was unable to get any hate back until the last 5% or so.

I noticed it again just on smaller stuff. Once on a Faust, which I was /WAR for, once each on a Genbu and a Byakko (both /NIN), and a few other times on smaller stuff.

I really never had this problem before, and I no longer use invincible when it's really not necessary. I remember hearing people complain about "Invincible hate nerf" a while back. But of course, like every other stupid thing that people complain about, I ignored it. Maybe it was just bad timing/luck or me being careless, but it really seemed like Invincible set hate to a certain level (not necessarily an increase in hate or % of hate, but an immediate jump to a predetermined amount), and if i was already above that set amount, using the 2-hr would lower my current hate.(?) I realize this sounds pretty stupid, but that is why it's in the Newbie section. Does anyone know for sure what the deal is?

Also, sorry if this has been addressed before. I've been eying up the forums for a long time.

[Stelaereous]

Invincible in fact doesn't generate a lot of hate. This is a common misconception. The reason that Invincible is so effective as PLD/WAR is because you are not taking damage. You are already not taking damage as /NIN. If you know how enmity works, you know by now that taking damage lowers your enmity. A BLM pulls hate. Gets smacked once and the mob comes right back at you. It's as simple as that. Tired of hearing people say "I PULLED HATE OFF OF INVINCIBLE, OMG!" or pretending that Invincible is Ubervoke.

[Ganondorf]

Yeah I understand that much. It was really just an attempt to not lose my steady hate in the brief absence of Flash/Sentinel/whatever. I'm just trying to figure out how/why (atleast it seemed like) it actually made me lose the hate i already built up.

[Glori]

Invincible in fact doesn't generate a lot of hate. This is a common misconception. The reason that Invincible is so effective as PLD/WAR is because you are not taking damage. You are already not taking damage as /NIN. If you know how enmity works, you know by now that taking damage lowers your enmity. A BLM pulls hate. Gets smacked once and the mob comes right back at you. It's as simple as that. Tired of hearing people say "I PULLED HATE OFF OF INVINCIBLE, OMG!" or pretending that Invincible is Ubervoke.

I dont agree. Invincible does give a big hate spike, but in longer fights when you have already reached the hate cap (or the point of diminished returns if you don't believe in a hate cap) its not going to be all that noticable. So while it gives a big spike, the other pld flashed or whatever and it brought him to the same level of hate, or just a tad over since the spike from Invincible had already started to fade.

[Ryko]

A single flash, a cure 3 on myself, and an invincible usually places me right back at the top of the hate list assuming I got hate reset.

[Seedz]

You were probably at the hate cap already, and at that point Invincible adds as much hate as Kurayami: Ichi. Don't worry too much about it.

Invincible in fact doesn't generate a lot of hate. This is a common misconception. The reason that Invincible is so effective as PLD/WAR is because you are not taking damage. You are already not taking damage as /NIN. If you know how enmity works, you know by now that taking damage lowers your enmity. A BLM pulls hate. Gets smacked once and the mob comes right back at you. It's as simple as that. Tired of hearing people say "I PULLED HATE OFF OF INVINCIBLE, OMG!" or pretending that Invincible is Ubervoke

This is wrong. Invincible's spike hate is absurdly big, and you can test this by yourself on any mob with a hate reset move. Get to the hate cap with a cotank, then eat one of those moves; then go and use flash + invincible, and you'll be really close to your cotank again.

[Medivac]

perhaps you arent useing ja's or magic to generate hate while invincibled? maybe the thfs or /thfs are TA on you while invincible is on you. pretty much when a pld invincibles shit has hit the fan and the melee are off, and this would mean hate generated from thf or /thf would be lost, there could be any number of reasons you lose hate

[Ganondorf]

I dont agree. Invincible does give a big hate spike, but in longer fights when you have already reached the hate cap (or the point of diminished returns if you don't believe in a hate cap) its not going to be all that noticable. So while it gives a big spike, the other pld flashed or whatever and it brought him to the same level of hate, or just a tad over since the spike from Invincible had already started to fade.

So then maybe I'm not crazy for thinking that Invincible itself MAY have a hate cap? I'm starting to see that as a pretty plausible idea: Being close to or at the Hate cap/point of diminished returns + Invincible(with a hate cap lower than what you can easily generate with a few minutes of /NIN) = Hate from Invincible taking priority over your steady tanking hate, and therefore = less total hate than you would have, had you not used Invincible at all.

I'm sure the best answer to all of this is simply "Don't use Invincible unless you're going to die", but i wouldn't mind knowing for sure. Thanks for the responses so far.

Edit:

perhaps you arent useing ja's or magic to generate hate while invincibled? maybe the thfs or /thfs are TA on you while invincible is on you. pretty much when a pld invincibles shit has hit the fan and the melee are off, and this would mean hate generated from thf or /thf would be lost, there could be any number of reasons you lose hate

Fair enough, but the problem isn't what happens while invincible is active. It was the immediate loss of hate the very second the ability was used. Which really seems to imply that, for whatever reason, the use of invincible immediately had a negative affect on my hate.

[Elesirdur]

After a Pile Pitch how long did you find it took to get hate back under control with your co-tank?

If, as others have said, you haven't died or it had been a few minutes since you were last Pile Pitched, then you were probably at or near the enmity cap anyways. /NIN builds up much more hate over time than /WAR can and if you're good and haven't gotten plinked yet, then after 5 or 10 mins you'll likely be at the cap where Invincible won't add much extra.

Sentinel+Flash+Invincible should get you as close to the cap as you can get if your enmity's pretty much at zero.

[Ganondorf]

Honestly I really don't recall being Pile Pitched. It was our first Proto-Omega as a LS, so we didn't spend time farming pods or anything, but we had some awesome stunners, and all I really remember was some nasty wtfLazer spammage at the end. I also would have figured that it was just the work of Pile Pitch that I could have missed, but seeing it happen again, the same exact way on 3 other mobs really got me wondering. Again, it wasn't the lack of a super-hate boost that a lot of people see Invincible as being, it was the totally drastic drop in hate the second the 2-hr was used.

[Therin]

Invincible in fact doesn't generate a lot of hate. This is a common misconception. The reason that Invincible is so effective as PLD/WAR is because you are not taking damage. You are already not taking damage as /NIN. If you know how enmity works, you know by now that taking damage lowers your enmity. A BLM pulls hate. Gets smacked once and the mob comes right back at you. It's as simple as that. Tired of hearing people say "I PULLED HATE OFF OF INVINCIBLE, OMG!" or pretending that Invincible is Ubervoke.

Wrong.

The reason you're not noticing as much of a return as PLD/NIN using Invincible as you would on PLD/WAR is simply because Invincible IS a hate spike. PLD/NIN = capped on hate most of the time (assuming you're not sucking at shadow tanking). PLD/WAR = not capped on hate, due to getting hit - thus, obviously, an ability that spikes your hate would seem more effective on PLD/WAR, since you're already at the hate cap as PLD/NIN.

[Glori]

A single flash, a cure 3 on myself, and an invincible usually places me right back at the top of the hate list assuming I got hate reset.

Can achieve the same results with Flash > sentinel > cure 4 > cure 4. Often need to do this after death/replacing a tank. Always put you at or just below the hate cap from 0 hate.

[Saraphym]

I was pretty sure Invincible gives user a huge spike in hate until it wore or something to those lines, and I highly doubt being at your "enmity" cap and using invincible would lower your hate. As to why it turned to another pld I guess that really depends on what else happened during the course of that fight that might have effected enmity. Either way I'd think its not something to dwell on if its only happened once. In my experience sometimes things are just random and unpredictable on ff.

[Silenus]

I don't think Invincible would actually reduce overall hate, but if you were at or near "as much hate as you could possibly already have", for those of you who don't like the word "cap" for some reason, I could see where it wouldn't have much of an effect in raising your hate level.

[Woozie]

A single flash, a cure 3 on myself, and an invincible usually places me right back at the top of the hate list assuming I got hate reset.

Can achieve the same results with Flash > sentinel > cure 4 > cure 4. Often need to do this after death/replacing a tank. Always put you at or just below the hate cap from 0 hate.

The point was that it shows how much hate Invincible generates. This answers the OP's questionis and it shows that Stelaereous is wrong.

Not sure if Stelaereous actually plays PLD or not, but I know from experience that invincible does generate a lot of hate. It's not an infinte amount of hate or anything, so don't be surprised when you loose hate during invincible (especially if you were throwin into the fight late or died/dc'd at some point).