Lieberman-Kyl amendment

[guartz]

By a vote 76-22, the Senate passed the Lieberman-Kyl amendment.

This amendment to hr 1585 does a few things.

1. allows the president to bomb Iran.
2. dubs the royal guard as terrorists
3. thus making it mandatory to bomb Iran in fiscal year 2008



So... I'll guess I'll see you guys in boot camp soon.

btw if anybody knows a good way to dodge drafts, let me know.

[Amarok]

sigh

[Correction]

link?

[Correction]

Never mind I found it:

(b) Sense of Senate.--It is the sense of the Senate--

(1) that the manner in which the United States transitions and structures its military presence in Iraq will have critical long-term consequences for the future of the Persian Gulf and the Middle East, in particular with regard to the capability of the Government of the Islamic Republic of Iran to pose a threat to the security of the region, the prospects for democracy for the people of the region, and the health of the global economy;

(2) that it is a vital national interest of the United States to prevent the Government of the Islamic Republic of Iran from turning Shi'a militia extremists in Iraq into a Hezbollah-like force that could serve its interests inside Iraq, including by overwhelming, subverting, or co-opting institutions of the legitimate Government of Iraq;

(3) that it should be the policy of the United States to combat, contain, and roll back the violent activities and destabilizing influence inside Iraq of the Government of the Islamic Republic of Iran, its foreign facilitators such as Lebanese Hezbollah, and its indigenous Iraqi proxies;

(4) to support the prudent and calibrated use of all instruments of United States national power in Iraq, including diplomatic, economic, intelligence, and military instruments, in support of the policy described in paragraph (3) with respect to the Government of the Islamic Republic of Iran and its proxies;

(5) that the United States should designate the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps as a foreign terrorist organization under section 219 of the Immigration and Nationality Act and place the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps on the list of Specially Designated Global Terrorists, as established under the International Emergency Economic Powers Act and initiated under Executive Order 13224; and

(6) that the Department of the Treasury should act with all possible expediency to complete the listing of those entities targeted under United Nations Security Council Resolutions 1737 and 1747 adopted unanimously on December 23, 2006 and March 24, 2007, respectively.

The important things have been bolded. 'Sense of Senate' is a term which means the Senate has put its nonbinding opinion on a piece of legislation. Did you catch that? This admendment does not make it law that the IRGC be labeled terrorists or that we give a blank check to start bombing iran by 2008.

So as usual Guartz is posting alarmist, unsubstantiated bullshit. Q.E.D.

Edit: Link for people wanting to see it for themselves: http://thomas.loc.gov/bss/d109query.html and look for S.AMDT.3017 to HR 1585

[guartz]

It's not a law, you are right. Because no such law can be passed lol.

This is a way congress can declare war without actually doing so.

The president CAN do so, and wave this "sense of senate" in our faces.


http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/r ... ?congress=
110&session=1&vote=00349#position


http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/L ... dasBU3:451[1-540]
(Amendments_For_H.R.1585)&./temp/~bdPFcJ[[o]]


edit: congress didn't declare war or pass any laws to attack Iraq either, btw.

[Charla]

Worst case: Someone decides this is a rubber stamp for doing whatever they want to. Of course, cynicism says that they would have done so without a rubber stamp anyway. Personally, I think Ahmadinejad(sp) acting like he can do whatever he wants made something like this inevitable, but it's probably better if Congress does it like this.

[Correction]

edit: congress didn't declare war or pass any laws to attack Iraq either, btw.

1) don't direct link that law library, the search returns are cached in temporary files and expire quickly
2) congress can refuse to fund anything the president wants to do, btw.

[Jimmayus]

Congress could theoretically stop funding on anything, but if any offensive force with occupying agendas (lolunlikely but when considering routes this could go you have to consider everything) is deployed, then they can't totally deny complete funding without looking hugely irresponsible for the lives of the troops, whether or not they gave the order.

So yeah, theoretically they could deny funding for it, but that still means a potential abuser has been given one less barrier to starting shit now.

[Correction]

The president still seeks authorization for use of the army from Congress. This amendment is far from such authorization. That's all I'm saying. Don't read too much into what guartz has likely parroted verbatim from some frothing liberal blog somewhere in the dingy recesses of the internet.

[guartz]

I disagree with you Charla. I think Ahmadinejad is acting very reasonable, despite the overly aggressive American colonialism.

Don't believe the media circus painting Iran as enemy. Everything said is just so distorted, it's just like IRAQ WMD scenario.

To give you examples of the investigative journalism mainstream media is practicing;

Media: Iran hates jews.
Reality: 20,000 jews live in Iran and have parliament representation

Media: Iran is supplying weapons to terrorists in Iraq
Reality: If mexico was invaded by a foreign power, American weapons would eventually make their
way to mexico insurgency. Also, legally America can station troops in mexico because it borders america.
Same thing with iraq, foreign power invaded, Iran borders it - can legally have troops there.

Media: Ahmadinejad swore to destroy israel
Reality: First of all, every nation in the middle east wants to destroy Israel, because Israelis are just such good neighbors. Secondly, the speech he was making was poorly translated from Farsi, he wanted israeli regime to collapse. He denies to be anti-samite.

Media: Ahmadinejad is a new hitler/murderer
Reality: lulz

Media: Iran is building nukes
Reality: Mohammad El'Baradei, head of the International Atomic Energy Agency says there is no proof of that. His quote “Iran does not constitute a certain and immediate threat for the international community.”
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 007_pg4_14



This whole Iran thing is just another IRAQ thing. However, there is nothing anyone can do about this except whimper a protest before being drafted.

[Exoduso]

Here comes the draft, lol.. >.>

[guartz]

The president still seeks authorization for use of the army from Congress. This amendment is far from such authorization. That's all I'm saying. Don't read too much into what guartz has likely parroted verbatim from some frothing liberal blog somewhere in the dingy recesses of the internet.

That is so pre spt. 11 2001, it's not even funny.

[Correction]

Media: Iran hates jews.

I must have missed that issue of 'Time' magazine.

Also, legally America can station troops in mexico because it borders america.
Same thing with iraq, foreign power invaded, Iran borders it - can legally have troops there.

We signed treaties with Mexico granting us land for military use. I'm looking for the treaties that allow Iranian forces to provide material support to an insurgency that murders Iraqi policemen, army recruits and politicians. You got it handy?

Only you would think Ahmadinejad's behavior is 'reasonable.' Comparisons to Hitler are always stupid, but he does execute people for being gay. He's more like a new Muammar Gaddafi - a thug trying to bank on his "I stand up to the Great Satan" image to boost his support at home and in the Middle East in general.

That is so pre spt. 11 2001, it's not even funny.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Reso ... ainst_Iraq

Signed October 2002, idiot.

[guartz]

lol

The Resolution required President Bush's diplomatic efforts at the UN Security Council to "obtain prompt and decisive action by the Security Council to ensure that Iraq abandons its strategy of delay, evasion, and noncompliance and promptly and strictly complies with all relevant Security Council resolutions." It authorized the United States to use military force to "defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council Resolutions regarding Iraq."
-your wikipedia link

Now show me where the UN security council authorized the invasion of Iraq.

Protip: It didn't.

Anymore irrelevant things you wanna tell me?

[Ace-o-fire]

Fuck this is what I get for sitting down and talking with a Navy recruiter.

[Correction]

lol

I said: "The president still seeks authorization for use of the army from Congress."

The resolution (paraphrased by wikipedia) says: It authorized the United States to use military force to "defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council Resolutions regarding Iraq."

Now you're saying: "Now show me where the UN security council authorized the invasion of Iraq."

Who the fuck is being irrelevant here?

[RakEx]

Correction.. you are arguing with a guy who thinks that we planted bombs in our own World Trade Towers. I think you might be wasting you breathe.. or brain power here.

[guartz]

Okay guys you win. I'm such an idiot. This administration isn't actively seeking war with Iran, it's all in my head.

[Parshias]

Okay guys you win. I'm such an idiot.

Took you damn long enough.

[Charla]

A-man: We need nuclear power and we're going to get it!
Russia: Ok man, if you need power that bad, we'll give you some uranium you can use for it.
A-man: Nowai! We're gonna make our own uranium! We don't need your charity!
UN: Dude, relax will ya? We're just trying to make you look mostly sane here.
A-man: I'm not listening! This discussion is over!

the science nobody seems to care about: Naturally occuring uranium consists of about 99% U238 and maybe .5% U235 (these are isotopes). A light water reactor requires about 3% U235. To get enough U235, you have to separate the isotopes. That's called uranium enrichment. Unfortunately, uranium enrichment can also be used to make much higher concentrations of U235, which can then be used in bombs. A heavy water reactor, however, only requires the naturally occuring 1% U235, so it can be used without uranium enrichment. The downside is that heavy water reactors also produce plutonium as a waste product, which can then also be used in bombs.

Now, if Iran had agreed to just buy the damn enriched uranium from Russia or wherever, we could have solved this whole problem years ago. But they insisted on doing it the hard way, and making themselves look suspicious in the process. On top of that, they pull stupid media stunts like the whole "what holocaust?" thing a while back. And yelling at Israel, but that's marginally more justified. Therefore, I conclude that Iran is not playing nice. A-man over there is only in control of his country as long as the real power doesn't decide otherwise, so he has to make a lot of noise just to make himself look useful. That's the real reason we keep hearing about the Holocaust-doubting and the Israel-condemning. The nuke thing is more complicated, but I think it's the same basic idea. Maybe more along the lines of "man, if I just had the bomb they'd all have to take me seriously!"