Endgame LS Rules / Points

[terraflarex]

Balance of Points and Officer's Decision works well imo. It can be lead to tough judgment calls at times, but I think it's probably the most fair method. You can use Points to gauge which members are active and those qualifying for an item can lot it. If an officer feels that a person is not active enough, they can deny them lotting ability even if they meet the point requirements. You get the idea, it has worked best for me in my experiences. This sort of thing is really very subjective though..

[MaachaQ]

No one point system is perfect, the best you can do is.. use a bit of common sense and try to create one that will satisfy most people's needs. A good way, is to look at which LS's are successful, and which ones are not, then take note of each LS's point system and try to connect the dots. It's also important to keep in mind, your own LS members opinions on what is a good system or not. If everyone can agree in the beginning when a system is being established, it's much easier to progress as a linkshell.

My LS does well with a point system but a neighboring LS does just as well with a /point system, so what's your argument now?

very simple, To each their own.
Besides I was not making an "argument" either way, but a suggestion. Taking it at face value without applying common sense is retarded. If your ls members are shitty you're gonna have a problem no matter what system you choose, this is obvious to say the least. Btw, I was not saying "find a good LS and copy their methods to the exact". If you read clearly I plainly stated "take notes" from observing successful linkshells, and connect the dots so to speak. Therefore a starting LS may look at your LS and this neighboring LS and find which they seem to identify more, if given both are equally successful. Then they could either model after one, or take a mix from both and create their own. What's wrong with that?

This is exactly the idea i had when i started the thread, I wanted to know what system other successful LSs used in their gear distribution, and wanted opinions on how our systems held up to other shells systems. Alot of good info hear (and a few rants), and I've directed my fellow shellmates to some read the thread while we work on small changes in our own rule system.

Thaank you all for your opinions.

[bombard]

crap, ending post before I got to throw in my nickle.

well here goes anyway --

I remember years ago we had a point system awarding people points for certain things they did, helped people with, like Zm's in the beginning, scouting sky pops, running a sky farm, etc. It worked pretty well and everyone pretty much agreed with how it was set up, with most of the emphasis being helping new recruits get sky so we actually had people up there to farm with :D

After awhile, it got pretty old keeping all the points updated with a fairly decent sized linkshell keeping track of every fart during a week kinda gets to be more than a fulltime job in itself. Then we started doing dynamis as a LS, and CoPs, and then Sea and limbus -- so it pretty much evolved itself into a merit based system with whomever was in charge of said event trying to be the most fair when it came to loot distribution. Sure you'll always have a few ppl behind on some things while sometimes favortism does get in the way, but that's the nature of the beast in most things. I mean, let's say you Get an Ebody, would your first Ebody go to someone based on a point system, which means a WHM with the most Ls points would get to lot on the elusive Ebody if he/she REALLY wanted to. That would go over really well, lol.

As far as HNM camps and sellable lootdistribution os concerned, most of the time we'll put it in the bank since the bank pays for dynamis, af2+1 upgrades, and special request fundings and such. When the bank does have a nice buffer, usually the call is made to sell and split the drops amongst the members in attendance. LS banks are/were nice for helping ppl with PM's (meds, etc), Dynamis entry fee, that new lolEijenhar thing, buying materials to craft pop items for some poppable NM's (R.pumps, WhmHauby, etc), or to encourage LS members to go farming for these materials and to pay them instead of an outside entity.

Point systems are nice for newer linkshells when you're trying to get a feel for leadership, but I think it almost always evolves out of points and into "/point" after you all start working together and become friends and such.

[lysol]

Ive seen some good ideas here as well but getting any decent changes in older lses is somewhat hard A lot of things I would love to see changed over maybe there is a half way point some where but I dunno.

[Kainstryder]

My linkshell goes with a mix of points and sackholder's decision. Usually 2-3 sacks decide and have to agree on x person for something, otherwise it's discussed why so and so may not take x item, etc until we come to a conclusion. We generally just look at points and use good judgment as well. For 2.5 years my shell's been running strong and we haven't had any real drama about how things work, being unfair or anything. So far, we haven't had anyone leave over how stuff's decided, except for our infamous Spidderre event, but that's another story :D

Generally the whole idea of points is good IMO just because if x person keeps showing, then I'd think they'd deserve it over the guy who's only been there for a few weeks or barely can come to anything. I think the best system is using points so you have an idea of who should get what, then multiple sacks discussing rewards, as only 1 person deciding things can become very 1 sided and usually might end up favoring only certain people/friends.

As for Dynamis, point system works over "If you have the job, lot it" mentality. Yeah in some cases that's fair and works...if you individually pay for the runs and are in a pick up shell I guess. My shell uses a couple different systems, depending on zones:

Cities: Check highest person's attendance of item for that job, anyone within 20 points of person may lot.

Beaucedine: Same as above, but 5 points within.

Xarcabard: Highest attendance only.

CoP: Any main job may lot -1 relic. Belt/Cape are highest attendance within 20 points.

If something drops no main jobs need, we ask for any 75 jobs needing. If 2 or more speak up, they both lot it. If none need, we go down the list of 70+, 60+, etc.

When someone becomes 5/5 on a job, they get reset on points and are asked for a new job to lot, that way someone with 100 points doesn't just jump ship over to RDM and lot over others immediately. However, original attendance is kept for CoP zones. If someone switches lots at, say, 4/5, they take a % hit on attendance based on which received, etc. It's to protect those from gaining Duelist Chapeau then jumping over and trying to get Valor Surcoat or something thinking their attendance won't drop much. So far, the system's worked very well, but it does suck when some people are still 4/5 on their first job and a bunch are already working towards 2nd, 3rd, and so on. Xarca needs to drop moar >

[colomis]

My shell uses points that you accumulate by attending events and such and then when we go to an event like JoL they basically auction off potential drop items. While no system is perfect and all have a flaw that someone is going to point out, I am ok with this type of system. Unfortunately my LS doesn't have a rule about the item going to someone who "deserves" it or anything like that, as long as you have a job that can equip it, you can bid on it. Then there's the fucking prick that has played the game as long as its been out and still only has one job (thats right 1 job) at 75 decides to be an even bigger jackass and lot an item that really won't benefit him thus preventing others who would actually benefit from it from obtaining it. I'm pretty sure that the +polearm skill on a Love Torque isn't going be benefit a SAM all that much, it would be much better served on a guy with DRG and THF at 75, but I could be wrong. I fucking hate loot whores and selfish assholes.

P.S. I'm not bitter or anything

[Zanz L. Barre The 3rd]

Points are bullshit outside of dyna.

Leave the decision up to your leader who can guide drops to those that deserve it. If you can't trust your leader to justly distribute loot to those who earn/deserve it, than fucking leave. Your linkshell is fundamentally weak if you can't trust your leader anyhow. And yes, the leader is bound to make a bad call here and there, but ultimately, the comfort of knowing you will get what you and your LS mates deserve is far too reassuring to emphasize on the rare mistake of gear distribution by your leader.

That is all.

[Evelyn]

whine

Thanks for bumping a once-dead thread for a vain attempt at trying to get someone to feel sorry for you. Everyone gets passed over for gear, so buck up and wait your turn, or make your own HNM shell.

[Okuza]

Our shell recently moved from standard job/level cast-lots to a points system. I've been through that transition in other games (EQ) and it's always got a bit of drama attached to it as you work things out. Typically your shell WILL loose some people over the transition. In the times I've been through it, it's always been low-attendance but loud people; ie. more a relief that they're gone than not. You hope they'd be more positive and stay, but if they can't manage that, well, it's for the best. :/

One major advantage to point systems over leader-fiat is that leaders are not perfect and they can't notice everyone. For instance, after putting the DKP system into effect for our current shell, there were some very surprising names at the top of the heap after the first month. Some very quiet people are contributing heavily. Leaders notice the obvious folk more than the silent competent types.

Another nice thing is that you can just close your eyes and crank the machine and out pops the winner. It's rough agonizing over who most deserves which item. It's not always obvious and if it's the leader or the leader's bf/gf/close-friend/cat, it's damn hard to avoid it seeming like favoritism. Fiat can work, but you need a really tight supportive group to make sure the leaders don't burn out on it and that minor mistakes aren't magnified into personal drama issues that pain the entire shell. Public points help people know just when to expect something and (more importantly) when NOT to expect something. Once the kinks are worked out of your system, there is typically no drama over who got what.

BTW, all systems only work to the degree by which the members support that system. I've seen a ton of different systems. FFA/cast-lots are the ones I'm least happy with, but really anything works as long as the people using it want it to work.

[Geneyus]

We have a point system with job priority. Everyone else either forgot to bid or assumed they weren't winning when I won mine. I bid all in trial and was the only person who bid that day. Besides the initial shock there has been no drama over it. Next time you are winning e body, ridill, a body, or d ring and pass it, then you can call me greedy. I did nothing wrong and did not abuse any system.

Cry more.

Edit: You forgot to add how people like me only play this game for themselves and do nothing but horde items. People like you create people like Map who will never level his war sub because it pisses you off. Judge all you want but I'm out of mage jobs to level now and damn is war looking good next. Good thing I have a Ridill to ding into.

Congrats, except you've still shown why pure point systems are stupid and are a jerk for bidding any points on it in the first place.

Am I a hero if I kept Map from winning it freelot? We totally have a thing for ridill rngs.

[colomis]

whine

Thanks for bumping a once-dead thread for a vain attempt at trying to get someone to feel sorry for you. Everyone gets passed over for gear, so buck up and wait your turn, or make your own HNM shell.

Wasn't trying to get anyone to feel sorry for me, I could care less. Just stating my frustration with people that are assholes about things just to be assholes about them. As far as waiting my turn.........its not like it was the first JoL my shell killed. And maybe you should actually read my "whine" post to see I wasn't passed over either......fuck it, beating a dead horse here.

[Naygor]

We have a point system with job priority. Everyone else either forgot to bid or assumed they weren't winning when I won mine. I bid all in trial and was the only person who bid that day. Besides the initial shock there has been no drama over it. Next time you are winning e body, ridill, a body, or d ring and pass it, then you can call me greedy. I did nothing wrong and did not abuse any system.

Cry more.

Edit: You forgot to add how people like me only play this game for themselves and do nothing but horde items. People like you create people like Map who will never level his war sub because it pisses you off. Judge all you want but I'm out of mage jobs to level now and damn is war looking good next. Good thing I have a Ridill to ding into.

Congrats, except you've still shown why pure point systems are stupid and are a jerk for bidding any points on it in the first place.

Am I a hero if I kept Map from winning it freelot? We totally have a thing for ridill rngs.

Not really. At best you're the lesser of two evils and I don't think you even qualify for that.

[Shamaya]

While wonderfully romanticized, your definition makes good leadership synonymous with omniscient leadership. ...
etc etc etc

I'm going to have to agree, Palonious. I think that many people falsely confuse point systems as being inherently inflexible and unable to account for multiple facets of what it means to be 'deserving' of an item or items.

While your posts are sometimes fun to read, palonious, and may serve to better people's vocabulary by familiarization (including mine), it's sentences and portions of sentences like this that, I think, make your points hard to understand or your perspective hard to see:

management is not by the very object it excludes, but by a priori logarithm; perfectly implemented despite its imperfect structure.

A latin term directly next to what's normally a math term. I think that sentences like that make can make what you're trying to say unclear or notoriously more difficult to understand.

[Kaisho]

My old LS does point auctions for items. Even though I like that concept, a major flaw is that anybody can get an item as long as they are the highest bidder. So yea, the leader getting E.body for level 1 WAR/DRK/BST ftw.

[Khalil]

My old LS does point auctions for items. Even though I like that concept, a major flaw is that anybody can get an item as long as they are the highest bidder. So yea, the leader getting E.body for level 1 WAR/DRK/BST ftw.

Wow, and how come you guys didn't correct this flaw sooner rather than later? I was always under the assumption that you had to be able to wear gear in order to lot/bid on it.

[Angelsin]

My old LS does point auctions for items. Even though I like that concept, a major flaw is that anybody can get an item as long as they are the highest bidder. So yea, the leader getting E.body for level 1 WAR/DRK/BST ftw.

Now I've heard some pretty bad LS drop setups ("I'm leader and I want Ageis so Dynamis = my currency", Favorites, the 1 75 job thing mentioned above, etc) but I think we have a winner here. That's pretty fucked up. I think what's more fucked up is people allowing this to happen or staying with him afterwards. That guy is clearly not a leader.

[Zarath]

This is why I like having more than one leader, it lessens the amount of bullshit lots. The current pearl holder of my LS is pretty fair overall, however he does sometimes get a bit greedy XD, where I come in and be a bitch in his face :D.

[Beckwin]

What's wrong with only having 1 job at 75?

A lot of things.

[Croaker]

What's wrong with only having 1 job at 75?

I've got 1 job at 75. The rest are somewhere between 20 and 50, but I eventually picked what I liked best leveled it to 75. I play it that job exclusively now because when playing this game, I prefer to do what I find fun.

People that have 10+ jobs at 75 may find the variety fun. I don't fault them for that. When I want variety I turn off my PC and go outside.

[Fated]

Sorry for finding multiple jobs fun, I wasn't aware I needed to specialize in one in order to truly have a good time, I thank you for the divine insight.