Endgame LS Rules / Points

[Delekii]

Kupo uses points, and it works well.

If you use leader-choice, and it works well, more power to you. That doesn't mean that points doesn't work equally as well for other people.

http://www.kupols.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3692

It looks more complicated than it is, and if you get an item, it is because you have done what is required of you to give you priority.

You say as an argument that divine priority works because "if your leader is a douche, why follow them?"

I say if you have people lotting shit on never-used jobs that they will never use over people that use the job every day at every event, why they fuck are they in your shell? Why do leaders get the opportunity to be upstanding morally proper people, while the rest of the shell doesn't?

[S N K]

(in most activities, sadly dyna doesn't count unless you include my lashing out against some RDM who won a hat last run) so it's easy that way.

Wut?

[Khalil]

I say if you have people lotting shit on never-used jobs that they will never use over people that use the job every day at every event, why they fuck are they in your shell? Why do leaders get the opportunity to be upstanding morally proper people, while the rest of the shell doesn't?

I'm pretty sure every ls needs a couple of people like that just so that we fuck with em, lol.

[S N K]

What LS would give shit to a person they cant wear?

He didn't say they couldn't wear them, he said the person regularly showed up as a job that couldn't wear them, he could very well have a RDM or a DRG capable of putting them on.

I had some fuck nugget send me a tell once wondering what LS would be retarded enough to waste Crimson Legs on a DRK.

Yeah a real winner...

[Rammses]

And I'll counter your argument by saying that if you cant trust your LS leader to make the decision that's best for your LS then you shouldn't be in that LS in the first place.

Right, cause leaders and loot is everything that's important in the world of FFXI.

[Khalil]

And I'll counter your argument by saying that if you cant trust your LS leader to make the decision that's best for your LS then you shouldn't be in that LS in the first place.

Right, cause leaders and loot is everything that's important in the world of FFXI.

It kinda is, for this argument anyways...

[Decimus]

I think your point system will work better if you measure points awarded in terms of hours. Some things about your system doesn't make sense to me though.

Why give 1 point for every hour spent doing trigger NMs then give 10 points for the God killed? Genbu take 10hrs to kill? So you're saying if member #1 does two Genbus and member #2 does one Genbu and 9 hrs of triggers, member #1 ends up with more points? That just doesn't make any sense.

I think it's best to award points on hours spent, not necessarily by perceived difficulty of the task for the LS.

[SephYuyX]

I just realized the OP was talking about spendable points where anyone can get anything, yeah, fuck that noise.

[Judai]

Ask someone from Excellence about their point system, LS from Hades. Best system I have seen, it's simple to work with and does the job well, just need to fine tune it toward your LS's goals and needs.

My LS uses a different points system now. Leaders point, member lots. If you can't trust your leaders, you shouldn't be following them. People should be playing for fun, not loot. Anyone who is constantly bitching baout loot should be pretty much kicked.

[Khalil]

Ask someone from Excellence about their point system, LS from Hades. Best system I have seen, it's simple to work with and does the job well, just need to fine tune it toward your LS's goals and needs.

My LS uses a different points system now. Leaders point, member lots. If you can't trust your leaders, you shouldn't be following them. People should be playing for fun, not loot. Anyone who is constantly bitching baout loot should be pretty much kicked.

Do you fully trust your LS Leader to make the right decision 100% of the time? If not, I'll stick to my point system where people earn points for attending raids. I'll repeat it again for anyone who thinks I don't trust my leader, it's not that I don't trust them, it's everyone can easily make a decision in favor themselves if given the opportunity...

[Vedder]

Not being a shitty person? Once again goes back to the concept that if you think your LS leader will fuck you over why are you following them?

Like I've said twice so far, if you are in the position to do these kind of things, you do have the option of doing it. You seem to be implying that I fully trust my leader or any leader to make the right decision for the LS all the time, which I don't. I wouldn't even trust myself being a trustworthy leader all the time. It's human nature.

I'm not gonna say that what you do doesn't work for you, it obviously does if you stand so strongly in support of it, but honestly... you are making sweeping broad generalizations about "human nature" and other people to make your point, which pretty much fails.

I think if you are truly in a situation where you can trust the leaders judgment, then having them distribute items is not necessarily a bad thing. If people are dedicated, etc. then eventually people will get what they want.

On the other hand, point systems are good if you think there are a bunch of flakes in your LS that will bail as soon as they get stuff... might as well make them work for it before they do. They are also good when the leader doesn't feel like answering numerous /tells asking to justify his/her decisions. If it's all written down, the you can just send the whiners off to read the rules.

Bottom line, "shit is situational" blah blah...

[ringly]

Anyone who is constantly bitching baout loot should be pretty much kicked.

AFUCKINGMEN

[Xanthe]

I've been under both point and /point systems and I definitely feel that /point is more fair. I also think it gives a lot more satisfaction when leaders tell you to lot an item than getting it by points because it reaffirms you're putting in your requisite effort. Points don't really take anything into consideration besides afking your character in the event zone. A /point system adds accountability and motivates people to actually work for those items. Those who aren't motivated aren't getting any.

Yes, that means you need to trust your leaders to be fair and not give out gear based on simple favortism, but seriously, if you don't trust them why are you even there? In conclusion:

lolpoints

[Khalil]

Not being a shitty person? Once again goes back to the concept that if you think your LS leader will fuck you over why are you following them?

Like I've said twice so far, if you are in the position to do these kind of things, you do have the option of doing it. You seem to be implying that I fully trust my leader or any leader to make the right decision for the LS all the time, which I don't. I wouldn't even trust myself being a trustworthy leader all the time. It's human nature.

I'm not gonna say that what you do doesn't work for you, it obviously does if you stand so strongly in support of it, but honestly... you are making sweeping broad generalizations about "human nature" and other people to make your point, which pretty much fails.

I think if you are truly in a situation where you can trust the leaders judgment, then having them distribute items is not necessarily a bad thing. If people are dedicated, etc. then eventually people will get what they want.

On the other hand, point systems are good if you think there are a bunch of flakes in your LS that will bail as soon as they get stuff... might as well make them work for it before they do. They are also good when the leader doesn't feel like answering numerous /tells asking to justify his/her decisions. If it's all written down, the you can just send the whiners off to read the rules.

Bottom line, "shit is situational" blah blah...

I don't think there are flakes in my LS as much as neighboring ls who uses divine choice. Honestly, I just wouldn't like one person telling everyone else what to lot on and who can't, when they can clearly make mistakes. It's not fail when those mistakes end up in BG for our drama-loving stomachs. But, point systems do require a lot more work than divine choice, unless divine choices keep a scorecard so to speak.

[Delekii]

Ask someone from Excellence about their point system, LS from Hades. Best system I have seen, it's simple to work with and does the job well, just need to fine tune it toward your LS's goals and needs.

My LS uses a different points system now. Leaders point, member lots. If you can't trust your leaders, you shouldn't be following them. People should be playing for fun, not loot. Anyone who is constantly bitching baout loot should be pretty much kicked.

Lets all go do events completely naked then, from now until forever. Also, everyone should cease to ever complain about shitty implementation of items, lack of upgrades, lack of inventory, or any other item-related complaint that we have ever heard.

FFXI is about items, like it or not. It's got nothing to do with trusting leaders or not, I'm sure your leaders are perfectly trustworthy, and I am sure that your system works for you. What I hate is when people think they know better and outright blast any point system when clearly they don't even use one. Speaking as someone who has a pretty complex point system, it works extremely well, and there is zero room for error - even when there is no leader on, or whatever, everyone can alway know precisely where they stand in regards to what they are entitled to lot. It is one of the things that drew me to the shell in the first place, and in the two-odd years I have been in the shell I can only think of 1 or 2 dramas that have occurred from it, after which changes were made to the system.

Points don't really take anything into consideration besides afking your character in the event zone. A /point system adds accountability and motivates people to actually work for those items. Those who aren't motivated aren't getting any.

Add a part to your charter that says "points will not be alloted to people who are afk". Problem solved. A /point system adds accountability in the exact same way that a point system can, if you change the system when it needs changing. Are people afking that often in your shell? Again, that points to a problem with the members in your shell, not the system. How do you get events done with people afk enough for it to be an issue? People are only going to events that benefit them? Great, that means they aren't earning as many points as people that are going to all the events, and will soon lose priority on their items. Points systems are not set in stone, they are adaptable, and probably moreso than a leader system.

Points system doesn't necessarily imply mistrust between members, nor mistrust unto ones leaders, it is simply an easy way to maintain a lot order that, if you set it up correctly, is perfectly adequate to fairly distribute items. Could we do a leader decides system? I don't know, I doubt it would work for our shell. We have quite a few leaders, and often there are events where they aren't present. Certainly it would not work as well for us as our point system does.

[Pooky]

What LS would give shit to a person they cant wear?

He didn't say they couldn't wear them, he said the person regularly showed up as a job that couldn't wear them, he could very well have a RDM or a DRG capable of putting them on.

Has happened in my ls before. Needless to say, the shell broke after a WHM got Wlegs over 3 plds, then Hydate over 2 nins -.-

[Judai]

Pretty much. Every so often people don't agree but we don't all play for gear and the ones who do bail like little bitches when they get their gear or the get kicked.

Our LS is run by Oligarchy instead of Ditactorship like so many LSes. This is how our leadership system works;

Player A, Player B, and Player C are the leaders of Ackz. All three are on the same plethora of command and neither of the three can override another. To override another leader, it is required to have another leader's consent.

99% of the time, the leaders will always agree upon the same thing. Rarely will this rule have to come into play.

Player D is the second in command. His authority and say in matters will be on par of the three leaders, but may be overridden by a single commander.

Player E is an Officer and third in command. Their authority and say in matters will be respected by everyone, but may be overridden by a single commander or Player D.

In time as our shell grows, officer ranks for those who we deem qualified and acceptable by the LS.

Basically, you need the consent of the other leaders to change anything and no one person has total control.

We are sorta re-working leaders atm due to ppl quitting and server jumping but we don't let one person run the entire shell alone. "Lotting Tiers" are open for the LS to see as well, so even if those people are not on, other people know who lots what. People move up and down the lotting tiers based on what they get and the time they put into the shell, the leaders change them when needed.

ex. Someone gets E.Body so they drop to the bottom of A.Body list or down a few tiers on Ridill. We do have disputes at times but generally people get over them because the majority of the LS doesn't play just for loot.

btw, I didn't blast a points system. I actually pointed out the one and only point system I have used and seen to work. If you use a points system and it works, great. Nobody can argue with XXX has more points then you. It's pretty foolproof as long as the system is fair.

I'm just saying if people soley bitch and complain about loot and can't handle their fellow LS members getting shit they need to be dealt with.

[ringly]

maybe youi missed the word constantly in that Delekii. There is adiffrence in someone speaking up agaianst, and someone that bitches and cries at every loot call.

[Khalil]

I've been under both point and /point systems and I definitely feel that /point is more fair. I also think it gives a lot more satisfaction when leaders tell you to lot an item than getting it by points because it reaffirms you're putting in your requisite effort. Points don't really take anything into consideration besides afking your character in the event zone. A /point system adds accountability and motivates people to actually work for those items. Those who aren't motivated aren't getting any.

Yes, that means you need to trust your leaders to be fair and not give out gear based on simple favortism, but seriously, if you don't trust them why are you even there? In conclusion:

lolpoints

You make it seem as if afking in a zone isn't doable in a divine choice a system..I can assure it can be done. Also, seeing where you stand in a point list simply confirms that you have been putting in a lot effort and it's not going unnoticed, especially when you're above everyone in your Job or item. People in a point system do work for items, how the fuck do you think I got my dring? Magically appearing there and it dropped me out of sheer will and mind power? Gfto.

[Delekii]

maybe youi missed the word constantly in that Delekii. There is adiffrence in someone speaking up agaianst, and someone that bitches and cries at every loot call.

I guess there are a lot of Kevalls in this world.

(excuse the in joke)