Endgame LS Rules / Points

[Churchill]

The other problem you run into, I think, is that say someone is guaranteed E:Body, or Ridill, for whatever reason. (This in itself is flawed I think...)

You go to Fafnir, when it is in window, for the 7-10 days that it is. Maybe you claim it, maybe that whole time you watch others kill it. So you go another 14-18 days without seeing Fafnir, only to repeat this cycle, barring a maintenance in or out of your favor.

This can go on for months, and say that person is still guaranteed those items, but maybe other people feel that their performance or attendance or attitude doesn't reflect that decision, if they ever felt that way in the first place.

It makes people, no matter how selfless or team oriented, apathetic towards attending a camp or wanting to help out. It's better for people to know that when they're at a camp, if they're a regular attending member, they will get a chance to lot that item they want assuming they play WAR/DRK at most events and really benefit the LS by obtaining those items. If it's a person who is always there, always helping, it doesn't matter who it goes to, because your LS just got better and other people know that next time they'll have that chance to become one of the few in the future.

[Khalil]

The other problem you run into, I think, is that say someone is guaranteed E:Body, or Ridill, for whatever reason. (This in itself is flawed I think...)

You go to Fafnir, when it is in window, for the 7-10 days that it is. Maybe you claim it, maybe that whole time you watch others kill it. So you go another 14-18 days without seeing Fafnir, only to repeat this cycle, barring a maintenance in or out of your favor.

This can go on for months, and say that person is still guaranteed those items, but maybe other people feel that their performance or attendance or attitude doesn't reflect that decision, if they ever felt that way in the first place.

It makes people, no matter how selfless or team oriented, apathetic towards attending a camp or wanting to help out. It's better for people to know that when they're at a camp, if they're a regular attending member, they will get a chance to lot that item they want assuming they play WAR/DRK at most events and really benefit the LS by obtaining those items. If it's a person who is always there, always helping, it doesn't matter who it goes to, because your LS just got better and other people know that next time they'll have that chance to become one of the few in the future.

You have to find out why those other people are not guaranteed those items. If they've spent their points yet still want shit, fuck em. If the person who's guaranteed to get Ebody or Ridill is there and has more points than others, why not give it to him? You also have to realize, I've been in next in line for Ebody for a month and half, but I've spent countless points and no longer in the lead. After awhile, you snap and get others things that more important if you don't have em. But, if said person has everything they want and are storing up more points, I'd certainly give it to that person. Just because you've been working hard for an item doesn't mean there isn't a person working twice as hard as you are. Honestly, if you badly want an item in a point system, store up points and you'll eventually get it.

[Xanthe]

You make it seem as if afking in a zone isn't doable in a divine choice a system..I can assure it can be done. Also, seeing where you stand in a point list simply confirms that you have been putting in a lot effort and it's not going unnoticed, especially when you're above everyone in your Job or item. People in a point system do work for items, how the fuck do you think I got my dring? Magically appearing there and it dropped me out of sheer will and mind power? Gfto.

Sure it's possible to afk under a divine choice system. Is a good leader going to take note of this when it's time to dole out the drops? You'd better believe it.

Let me step back a bit though. Not all point systems are made of fail. If a solid points system works for your LS, then great! Would I want FM to switch to a point system? Definitely not.

It's better for people to know that when they're at a camp, if they're a regular attending member, they will get a chance to lot that item they want assuming they play WAR/DRK at most events and really benefit the LS by obtaining those items. If it's a person who is always there, always helping, it doesn't matter who it goes to, because your LS just got better and other people know that next time they'll have that chance to become one of the few in the future.

That's exactly why I like the /point system. It adds a level of flexibility to meet the situation that you can't always get with points. Well said.

[Khalil]

And a point system leader won't pick it up, as well? Sure as hell, we will.

If the WAR/DRK has been working hard for that Ebody, Ridill, etc, far more than others, I'd bet my gear he will get that piece.

[Lordwafik]

Didn't read most of topic due to previous experiences with these topics mean run around in circles with the argument, but, for the big omgz items, officers tend to decide, smaller things like Ru Aun abjs, lot for job but be smart (i.e - bard stay away from heca if melee is lotting) , if you farm your own pop, then you get to pick something or two from the loot pool and give other people the rest. Things like Dyna / Limbus are lot your search comment, things like salvage are usually handed out, but sometimes we'll say "people who want skadi lot that" etc.

Basically it comes down to Shit is situational :D

No one lotting rule set can cover everything you do in FFXI, it is silly to think so. In a game where you can change jobs in a flash, and where a patch can all of a sudden turn a high valued item into something of mediocrity and vice versa, you'll have to be on top of adapting as well.

[Naramaska]

If you have the power, you can do fucked up shit. Simple as that.

Can do =/= Will do.

Also you can do plenty of fucked up shit without leading.

You're an idiot. If I can do it, what's stopping me of actually doing?

Not being a shitty person? Once again goes back to the concept that if you think your LS leader will fuck you over why are you following them?

Which is why we basically use a combination of points and SH discretion.

"Yes, your BLU has more points for those w.legs than this PLD who needs them, no, you can't lot it over them dipshit". Easily replace said jobs and items with any other number of situations. It's kind of weird since people generally say "why don't you just do one or the other", but it's worked for us for two years with virtually zero complaints.

[Kaeko]

Advantages of Point System
- methodical
- easier to manage lots of item distributions (leader doesn't have to decide them all, good for simple drops)
- everyone usually knows where they stand as far as lotting order

Advantages of a /point System
- accounts for more sublties than just did you attend X event (player skill?)
- don't have to take attendence or a lot of math

Advantages of free lotting System (think old-school pickup dynamis)
- requires no work to access item distribution

LS I'm in uses a points system where people log their own points (honor system). I suppose people can cheat this but I don't think it's every happened and there are some automated checking methods. This kind of removes the burden of someone having to calculate. If most the LS has good sky experience, the last thing you want to do is make the leader(s) decide who gets every little thing - it's just inefficient and it really doesn't matter for things that most would consider minor.

Points are great in these situations since it relieves some pressure off leaders to make so many detailed decisions that they would probably have a hard time accurately accessing since it's so common. One might say it's the leaders' 'job' to worry about item distibution and I guess this is true, but being human, doing tedious things like this all the time eventually wears on anyone. Points adds a lot of smoothness to day to day operations due to how methodical it gets.

Points is not a perfect system, but then again, none of these are. My take on this is it's never going to be perfect - instead of trying to make a 'perfect' 'drama-free' system, just go for a target amount of drama "risk" you're willing to accept then find the absolute simpliest system to reach that level of risk. You will go crazy trying to make a perfect system. There will always been situations where someone gets screwed over. If you can honestly say your LS has never had any item drama, then it either doesn't do that many events or is pretty new.

Instead of finding the perfect system, make sure the members in the LS are decent, understanding people. Instead of trying to prevent all drama, focus on building a relationship and friendship among members so when the inevitable drama strikes, everyone can handle it and work things out. This is how older LSs have survived I think.

I was surprised this hasn't blossomed into another drama thread yet

[Saeriel]

In the same respect, while a decent points system can work, I've also seen retarded systems where the leader would get 2 points an hour for shouting in Whitegate, whereas farming Sky pops would net you half a point an hour...

A decent system is fine, and a decent leadership who say, "you lot this!" for the benefit of the LS also works.

Just needs people not to be c'nuts. That's coconuts abbreviated if you're wondering.

[Riel]

Point systems have flaws, but people advocating /point instead seem to be saying point systems suck because people who want items for jobs pretentious LS won't let them play because they're not what is "needed." might actually GET ITEMS THEY WANT instead of only items you think they should be going for. /point is far more greed based than point systems.

[evilpaul]

I think you'll as soon find a religion/philosophy that everyone agrees is "correct" as a loot distribution that everyone agrees is "fair."

I'd suggest the OP to divide most of his point values by 5 if he's going to use them. They're unnecessarily high. And to put greater point values on things that take a long time potentially (farming water, diorite, etc) over stuff that people will want to do like kill gods to get their neato new items. Also, I'm not sure if people have mentioned it with the arguing over giving a DRK w.legs (or whatever) before your main PLD, but you can do points with job priority on some items to resolve that somewhat.

[Churchill]

Point systems have flaws, but people advocating /point instead seem to be saying point systems suck because people who want items for jobs pretentious LS won't let them play because they're not what is "needed." might actually GET ITEMS THEY WANT instead of only items you think they should be going for. /point is far more greed based than point systems.

What's the point of being able to kite NM's if all the W:Legs go to RDM, DRG, and DRK?

I would love W:Legs, but I don't have PLD leveled yet, only DRK and RNG. I'd feel bad if the main LS PLD's didn't have W:Legs before I got them for my RNG, which I never play.

[Saraphym]

In my experience, linkshells seem to be composed roughly a mix of two types of members.

a) the kind of member who is there to get shit for themself, in this case, points are necessary to motivate them to do anything that does not benefit them. These types also tend to leave as soon as they get all they need.

b) the kind of member who can see that helping out others is also helping the ls, they are here for the long haul. They are also interested in the LS's advancement rather than just their own, so they go to events regardless of points. These members tend to make up the core of a Good LS.


Now whether your LS is made up more of type a or type b is where you need to decide what kind of point system is necessary, if at all. And more importantly what is the reason you have one? Is it there to promote fairness? To prevent people from leeching? To decide who gets what item?

[Miji]

Point systems have flaws, but people advocating /point instead seem to be saying point systems suck because people who want items for jobs pretentious LS won't let them play because they're not what is "needed." might actually GET ITEMS THEY WANT instead of only items you think they should be going for. /point is far more greed based than point systems.

What's the point of being able to kite NM's if all the W:Legs go to RDM, DRG, and DRK?

I would love W:Legs, but I don't have PLD leveled yet, only DRK and RNG. I'd feel bad if the main LS PLD's didn't have W:Legs before I got them for my RNG, which I never play.

I'd feel worse if they went to a PLD who didn't deserve them (point-wise) instead of a DRK, RDM, or RNG who earns their keep.

Most shells are to the point now where items aren't going to make or break a fight. I say let your members get the gear they want, obviously with a few (very few) notable exceptions.

[Churchill]

Point systems have flaws, but people advocating /point instead seem to be saying point systems suck because people who want items for jobs pretentious LS won't let them play because they're not what is "needed." might actually GET ITEMS THEY WANT instead of only items you think they should be going for. /point is far more greed based than point systems.

What's the point of being able to kite NM's if all the W:Legs go to RDM, DRG, and DRK?

I would love W:Legs, but I don't have PLD leveled yet, only DRK and RNG. I'd feel bad if the main LS PLD's didn't have W:Legs before I got them for my RNG, which I never play.

I'd feel worse if they went to a PLD who didn't deserve them (point-wise) instead of a DRK, RDM, or RNG who earns their keep.

Most shells are to the point now where items aren't going to make or break a fight. I say let your members get the gear they want, obviously with a few (very few) notable exceptions.

[Pooky]

Point systems have flaws, but people advocating /point instead seem to be saying point systems suck because people who want items for jobs pretentious LS won't let them play because they're not what is "needed." might actually GET ITEMS THEY WANT instead of only items you think they should be going for. /point is far more greed based than point systems.

What's the point of being able to kite NM's if all the W:Legs go to RDM, DRG, and DRK?

I would love W:Legs, but I don't have PLD leveled yet, only DRK and RNG. I'd feel bad if the main LS PLD's didn't have W:Legs before I got them for my RNG, which I never play.

I'd feel worse if they went to a PLD who didn't deserve them (point-wise) instead of a DRK, RDM, or RNG who earns their keep.

Bingo. This is exactly why our skyls broke. Career WHM getting wlegs over our main tank career PLD just because the whm had more points.

I agree that no system is perfect, but in my experience, lolpoints.

[Saraphym]

Bingo. This is exactly why our skyls broke. Career WHM getting wlegs over our main tank career PLD just because the whm had more points.
I agree that no system is perfect, but in my experience, lolpoints.

By "Career" WHM, do you mean the WHM has pld to 75, just as a secondary job? Because I think that's still reasonable given they had the points and still came as PLD. Or do you mean they lotted with a PLD/DRK/RNG job at like 1, because that would be ridiculously stupid.

[ringly]

Point systems have flaws, but people advocating /point instead seem to be saying point systems suck because people who want items for jobs pretentious LS won't let them play because they're not what is "needed." might actually GET ITEMS THEY WANT instead of only items you think they should be going for. /point is far more greed based than point systems.

if a person such as myself goes whatever job is needed vs what I want to lot, then you get punished cause it wont benefit the shell.

I am not much for it, I dont like the /point system and I am in one atm. I have also been in a pointed system and felt there was far less drama going on about loot. No 2 people will have the same belief about who desrves or doesnt deserve in the /point system, hence creating a bit of restlessness in the shell.

[Ashira]

I was surprised this hasn't blossomed into another drama thread yet

That sad face is because drama is exactly what Kaeko wants. ;D

Our system works for us, but may not work for everyone.

If you go points, I would suggest not making triggers/NMs sets amounts of points, but just do time calls; every half hour or hour spent in sky is 1 point or 5 points or whatever. This way it's also comparable to king camping points, and you won't get people favoring one event over another, or everyone showing up Kirin day when they didn't bother to farm for the set.

[Tanthalas]

Back when Pikarya, Foomaring, and I were debating how to set up Kupo's point system, we actually took into consideration things like:

- We should really give Scotty (PLD) crimson legs because we need him to kite KB and Kirin
- We should really give Gza zenith mitts so we can take Fafnir down faster
- We should really give Foomaring osode because of the CHR

When an LS is young, making such considerations is acceptable. You have to increase various member's abilities in key areas in order to actually achieve milestones as a group. Now, it's a different story. Fafnir can be killed while half asleep from camping all night. Kirin is a joke. Etc. Etc. Most members now have pretty good items, pretty good merits, and pretty good jobs leveled to 75.

At this point, it's not about what's 'best for the shell' anymore. Membership rosters grow and it becomes more of a business. It becomes a meritocracy--those who put in the most time will be rewarded the most. So it's simply participation = points = loot... right?

Well, not really. Now you have to factor in the fact that linkshell members DON'T all have similar play schedules. Inevitably, there will be the one college student who plays 15 hours a day and attends everything. Then there's the full time career man who can only attend weekdays after 8 PM. It gets even more complicated when the 15 hour a day college student is a real loot whore and emo about everything and the career guy is like the nicest, most willing to help, friendliest person.

The point of this is that every LS will have a different system, and there is no best way. From a management/leadership role, however, it's nice to use points to ensure fair participation. If you're in the role of divine choice, there is no doubt there will be some serious ass kissing, especially from members of apparently opposite gender.

Notice I said "apparently."

Oh, and at this point in end-game if you've been awhile for a decent amount of time.... give it up already about your job and which job can benefit from an item more. The ultimate common denominator in FFXI is fun/entertainment. It is what it is. A THF or RNG should be just as eligible for a Ridill as a WAR. People play the game and want things. It's about the final value to the person controlling the avatar. If it makes them happy to own the item, why not let him have it. He worked for it, right? Sure... put some weights on job priorities and values (ie multipliers) but divine choice will ultimately lead to debate about who deserves what because of JOB and not because of participation. . . . of course I totally just contradicted myself with the example of the most beloved member who can't play enough hours and the emo pointwhore.

[Soprano]

My LS utilizes a points system, but instead of setting each item with "set" points value, we set each item with minimum base value, and our members can bid their spendable points that they feel a particular item is worth to them (assuming of course that they have the job to use it), sorta like an AH. Yes, there will be lootwhores who will get say wlegs for their 5th job, but hey, if people didn't put in their time or willing spend the points for it, then the "loser" of the bid have no one to blame but themselves for not putting in enough effort to help ls or spend the points necessary to ensure they can get that item at that moment. This system has worked for my shell.

At the end of the day, either system (points and /point) has its advantages and disadvantages, anyone and everyone can make a valid argument for points or /point. It is what your memberbase want that's important imo.