Endgame LS Rules / Points

[theo]

I've always been of the opinion that the divine-choice option is ideal, but only for "ideal" linkshells. In order for it to work you have to have a lot of other things fall into place - perfect leaders, members who aren't greedy, and a whole lot of trust. If that trust isn't there, it all comes crumbling down.

Granted you could counter that without trust, the linkshell shouldn't exist in the first place. And I would want to agree, except for the fact that good people are damn hard to find. Well, at least on Sylph anyway, but I digress. The problem is that everyone, *everyone* is looking out for themselves and leadership is rarely trusted, despite two+ years of running a linkshell without any foul play.

So, that said, I run my linkshells point system. It isn't perfect but it gets the job done with minimal bitching. Dynamis and Limbus run on their own seperate point systems. Sky/Sea/HNM etc shares a big pool of points that you get to spend with. If you can't use the item, you can still lot but it costs more. The fact that I am extremely punctual in terms of keeping the points up to date helps a lot; if you can't keep your database accurate on a weekly basis, don't bother because its going to be complete and utter hell.

[Tanthalas]

Also from a management perspective, points are a great metric for performance management.

Oh, and limit the number of participants at various events. You don't need 36 people to kill Ullikimmi. Let the people with low point values who show up on time take care of some of the weekly duties. Let those who have a ton of points and do nothing but play FF go merit or something. The leaders can manage these decisions.

The point here is (pun not intended)... use the point system as a GENERAL FOUNDATION. Then have leaders MANAGE it.

[Nynaeve]

My LS utilizes a points system, but instead of setting each item with "set" points value, we set each item with minimum base value, and our members can bid their spendable points that they feel a particular item is worth to them (assuming of course that they have the job to use it), sorta like an AH. Yes, there will be lootwhores who will get say wlegs for their 5th job, but hey, if people didn't put in their time or willing spend the points for it, then the "loser" of the bid have no one to blame but themselves for not putting in enough effort to help ls or spend the points necessary to ensure they can get that item at that moment. This system has worked for my shell.

At the end of the day, either system (points and /point) has its advantages and disadvantages, anyone and everyone can make a valid argument for points or /point. It is what your memberbase want that's important imo.

As an officer of the above mentioned LS I have to say that we are very fortunate to have members who put the LS first over themselves. But even if we were a /point system I think we would still keep detailed attendance so everyone could see how much each member is participating. It really does come down to types of members you have and the examples that you set for them as leaders. A loot whore leadership is going to end up with loot whore members.

[Croaker]

I know I'm new here, but I wanted opinions on what kind of policies other Endgame Linkshells use in giving points for events and how they decide what character gets what itmes.

I've been in LS that use points and I've been in LS where everything is dictated.

Both managed to produce an insane amount of drama.

If I had to pick one method over the other, I would choose points, but it really depends on how that system is implemented. The main problem with a points system is that some people have many jobs leveled. If a person like that gets on top of the points list, then the entire LS ends up working to get that one person gear for a long long time. The only way to combat this is to make points spendable or make people select a specific job and let their points count towards that job only. This will produce drama. There will also be the case where a point leader takes a three month break, then comes back and gets a rare item. This will produce LOTS of drama. Points will also make it difficult to recruit. When new people can see how far behind they are in points, a lot of them will leave.

Linkshells with dictated drops can be fair (about as common as a d-ring) or they can be biased towards friends of the shellholder, but even the most fair of them usually results in the shellholder obtaining a relic. ("OMG.. he deserved it.")

[Pooky]

Bingo. This is exactly why our skyls broke. Career WHM getting wlegs over our main tank career PLD just because the whm had more points.
I agree that no system is perfect, but in my experience, lolpoints.

By "Career" WHM, do you mean the WHM has pld to 75, just as a secondary job? Because I think that's still reasonable given they had the points and still came as PLD. Or do you mean they lotted with a PLD/DRK/RNG job at like 1, because that would be ridiculously stupid.

By "Career" I mean, he has PLD and a few others at 75, but even if there are 8 other WHMs onshell, he'll still ALWAYS come WHM. I can count the times he's shown as something other than WHM in the course of over a year on one hand.

I know Its semi-justifiable seeing that he does have it leveled, but this was right after his 60-something war lotted Hydate over 2 75 nins.

[Tomino]

points, or any "old style" HNMshell rules for what matters, are becoming quite useless since last year or so.
reason being now ppl just have too much jobs, so the whole thing of "let's work together so each of us can enhance himself" fails badly.
any hardcore player, attending almost any event, will have about 4-6 lv75 jobs right now, so how you're supposed to deal with that? you can't expect anyone in your shell to be a fair and nice player, and aside from the true sight item whores, ppl will still ask anything about their jobs if they can lot it.

[Soprano]

Bingo. This is exactly why our skyls broke. Career WHM getting wlegs over our main tank career PLD just because the whm had more points.
I agree that no system is perfect, but in my experience, lolpoints.

By "Career" WHM, do you mean the WHM has pld to 75, just as a secondary job? Because I think that's still reasonable given they had the points and still came as PLD. Or do you mean they lotted with a PLD/DRK/RNG job at like 1, because that would be ridiculously stupid.

By "Career" I mean, he has PLD and a few others at 75, but even if there are 8 other WHMs onshell, he'll still ALWAYS come WHM. I can count the times he's shown as something other than WHM in the course of over a year on one hand.

I know Its semi-justifiable seeing that he does have it leveled, but this was right after his 60-something war lotted Hydate over 2 75 nins.

So why not have the said whm come as pld for those fights where you or your lead sees it a tactical advantage to having a wlegs pld? You do have like 8 other whm's.

[Pooky]

Bingo. This is exactly why our skyls broke. Career WHM getting wlegs over our main tank career PLD just because the whm had more points.
I agree that no system is perfect, but in my experience, lolpoints.

By "Career" WHM, do you mean the WHM has pld to 75, just as a secondary job? Because I think that's still reasonable given they had the points and still came as PLD. Or do you mean they lotted with a PLD/DRK/RNG job at like 1, because that would be ridiculously stupid.

By "Career" I mean, he has PLD and a few others at 75, but even if there are 8 other WHMs onshell, he'll still ALWAYS come WHM. I can count the times he's shown as something other than WHM in the course of over a year on one hand.

I know Its semi-justifiable seeing that he does have it leveled, but this was right after his 60-something war lotted Hydate over 2 75 nins.

So why not have the said whm come as pld for those fights where you or your lead sees it a tactical advantage to having a wlegs pld? You do have like 8 other whm's.

Because hes a full gem pld who couldn't tank a rock eater.

[Keston]

Bingo. This is exactly why our skyls broke. Career WHM getting wlegs over our main tank career PLD just because the whm had more points.
I agree that no system is perfect, but in my experience, lolpoints.

By "Career" WHM, do you mean the WHM has pld to 75, just as a secondary job? Because I think that's still reasonable given they had the points and still came as PLD. Or do you mean they lotted with a PLD/DRK/RNG job at like 1, because that would be ridiculously stupid.

By "Career" I mean, he has PLD and a few others at 75, but even if there are 8 other WHMs onshell, he'll still ALWAYS come WHM. I can count the times he's shown as something other than WHM in the course of over a year on one hand.

I know Its semi-justifiable seeing that he does have it leveled, but this was right after his 60-something war lotted Hydate over 2 75 nins.

Is WHM his best geared job? Maybe he doesn't come as other jobs because they aren't well geared (yet), he obviously didn't have crimson legs for his PLD till then. Also, one of the good thing about WHM at events, is that you don't lose a great deal of xp (RR3).

I myself favor points, as those who earn, reap the rewards. Being a 75NIN shouldn't give someone "right" to anything, over another who has worked harder. I actually don't think is a bad idea to attain some of the rarer gear earlier (60+), rather than have to "begin" the wait when you hit 75. Many of my jobs were able to use gear I had from other jobs before, and can't tell you how nice it was to get to that lvl and just have the item/gear ready to use soon as I ding. I may start work on collecting Black Belt items upcoming from my KS99 seals when possible for this reason.

But I also think points systems should have a range that a person can lot who is below the point leader. ie. within 80% of the point leader. So if top dog has 300 Points, (300 is used as the "100%" mark) , someone with 240+ could also lot. Now people would keep catching up obviously, so maybe if they somehow lost lots twice before being in this position, 3rd time would be gauranteed. Just an idea of creative ways to keep point systems somewhat fair to those with less (but not too much less) points.

Because hes a full gem pld who couldn't tank a rock eater.

I think with this, you've just justified him getting W.Legs btw.

[Khalil]

Because hes a full gem pld who couldn't tank a rock eater.

This is where you normally kick the person.

[Darus Grey]

Some of the "Give items to people who actively use that job at events" opinions are... misguided.

I have 7 jobs leveled, I attend 99.99999999% of events as WHM.
Someone wanna make a list of awesome WHM endgame gear thats r/e!?! It'll be very short.

I'm not saying that the Oligarchy item system is bad, but making that choice based on the job you attend as is foolish at best, because that in and of itself favors many jobs(well WHM BLM SMN and some others are basically left getting shit), and since that creates favortism right there, the entire system is already biased.

Point systems are ok too, it obviously fixes the above problem.(Titan is historically almost nothing but point systems, and they work fine, omg the WHM just got an E.body? No one cares because they earned it regardless of if it gets used at events or not). The concerns over that kinda thing seem more a *player* problem, than a problem with the system.

That said, both are viable assuming you don't do what I ranted about.

[layoneil]

Because hes a full gem pld who couldn't tank a rock eater.

This is where you normally kick the person.

kick them for being possibly the best WHM his LS ever had?

[Soprano]

Because hes a full gem pld who couldn't tank a rock eater.

Let him/her practice or train him/her to be a decent tank.

[Demosthenes11]

The best way to avoid any possibility of corruption is a point system. Points for attending each event (obviously a list of dkp kept), and then those points are used to lot. Use this with a mainjob rule, and it's worked really well for us. Officer discretion is allowed in specific cases as well, though is rarely needed and when it is, it's plainly obvious

[shukuffxi]

Both systems have their benefits, but both system should never forgot to take into consideration one thing: Common sense. Any of the more hardcore type players at this point will have anywhere from 3 to 6 jobs leveled by this point. If one guy has BRD and BLM leveled and has to attend 90%+ of events as BRD because no one else has it/wants to, it doesn't mean he shouldn't be able to lot a Novio until every single other person who plays BLM more often gets it first. You have to take many things into account, and some people prefer a points system for this, so they can see:

"<PlayerA> and <PlayerB> want to lot a Novio Earring. Well, <PlayerA> has not received an item of any real value in 4 months, and his point total shows he has a <182 points>. His jobs leveled are BRD and BLM, and we know he has to come as BRD to most events. <PlayerB> got an N.Body and Haidate in the last 3 months, and his point total shows he has <98 points>. His jobs leveled are BLM and WAR. He attends most event as BLM."

Situation like this become difficult. PlayerA has not received any items of value in a while, and has a lot of points. He does play BRD more often, because it is what the LS requires of him. Should he be penalized because the LS requires his BRD way more than his BLM? The Novio Earring would arguably be of more use to PlayerB, so should PlayerA just pass it, and wait <insert who knows however long, depending on how often LS does JoL/how many other people "play BLM more than him"? Or should PlayerB decide "I recently got some worthwhile items, and this guy works hard for the LS and hasn't gotten much at all, he deserves an item he desires as well?" Or maybe the answer is to just let both lot ^^

Some LS prefer to use points for reasons like this, to avoid drama. If you know it when you sign-up for it, then you should have no complaints, if you want something, just work hard enough for the points for it, and then you get it (as long as your LS does events regularly). I personally believe people should pass items in the case of stuff like w.legs for PLD, -AS LONG AS THE PLD IS DESERVING-. One LS I was in gave a DRK w.legs before a PLD, just wtf is that about if both are in equal standing? >_> So whatever type of system you use, please, temper it by using common sense.

[edit]Fix job typos >_>

[Suiram]

There are some people in this game who have a wide variety of jobs, and are excellent at all of them, but I'd imagine they're in the minority even among those who are excellent with at least one job. If someone has a job that they are particularly good at or is particularly useful, and as such brings it over another job which is less useful or necessary for LS events, I think any fair leader would take that into account when they want to gear their less useful job, as would a fairly-constructed point system. In my view, a person who brings a less desired job to help the LS and lots for a less-used job is preferable to your LS losing a person with a useful job because they're barred from lotting items they want, or even worse, being forced to endure them taking up a party spot with a shitty/less useful job over their useful one just to be able to lot for it.

[Woozie]

My LS has the most retarded fucking point system ever. It practically encourages people to only show up to events that they need items for. It basically seperates points for each kind of event. So if a person with a lootwhore mindset only wants a Haidate, they'll only show up to sky. If one of these kind of people only wants a Dalmatica, they'll only show up to king camps.

No offense to whichever leader came up with our system, and please don't kick me for saying this (because I know whoever came up with the system reads these forums), but YOU ARE A FUCKING IDIOT.

[Woozie]

Oh, and I like how our gaiters went for like 150+ points, justice torque 35 points, but our last ridill only went for 9.

[Fhqwghads]

Ahh yes, good 'ol points. I brought this up in IRC a couple weeks ago. My LS uses a point system, but in my opinion it fails. The LS is 90% people who are not loot whores and who would rather gear people up to strengthen the shell. The problem stems from the 10% of douche-bags who have 4+ level 75 jobs and feel like they should lot on every fucking drop. Having tons of rare gear spread out on 1 person across multiple jobs is lame as hell, especially on jobs that those people rarely play. Personally I'd kick those people out of the LS, problem solved. I'm not the LS leader though, so my hands are tied. I also have too many friends in the LS to quit it, and despite the fact that every time I see this happen it pisses me off, I won't leave the shell over this. I also think that most of the people in the LS don't see it as that big a deal, which is frustrating, so I don't think it'll change any time soon.

[Zubuis]

I personally prefer /point system. Our linkshell uses a points system for limbus and dynamis and a /point system for sky, sea, land hnm's and it seems to be ok for the most part.

My biggest problem with points system is that it doesnt take into account any of the grey areas. Such as attitude, "omw factor", helpfulness, player skill etc. By "omw factor" I mean, the people who log on are ready to come to whatever the linkshell is doing without even being asked (generally these people arent the type who show up to things they only benefit from). I think the other problem with points system is you have to be careful because all of a sudden the unemployed people or weak college schedules members can have a bigger advantage over others who busy jobs or take harder college/university courses. To me someone who plays for 8 hrs a day doesnt mean they work harder for the linkshell than someone who takes care of their familiy, goes to work but only contributes 3hrs a day to your linkshell. A good leader/officers are going to know their members well and base their dedication for the ls, regardless of how many attendance points or how many hours a day they show up for and reward them accordingly.

/point system I think just allows the officers/leaders more flexibility to make decisions based upon a lot of things which a points system can not take into account. I still think its a good idea to keep some track of some sort of attendance within your linkshell so you have something to fall back on.

But like others have said in previous posts, you have to have some faith in your leadership regardless of whatever system is in place.