Endgame LS Rules / Points

[MaachaQ]

Seeing the replies from after I went to bed, I realize I left out a part of our system that makes it work better than some of you think. At least 1 day before a god run, you must set your "job priority" on what you will want to lot for that run. If someone has 6 lvl 75 jobs, they must set one job as their main priority in getting gear, one job as second priority. The can onmly lot items for their other jobs if they go "open to all."

I am not the leader of this LS I am describing, only a member who has recently gotten rather high on the points list so older members are beginning to complain that I will get certain items (specifically Osode) before they will.

My Dynamis shell also uses a points system. You must be on the job you want to lot AF for, or tell a leader that you want to lot a different job. Can only lot AF for 1 job each run. Can lot synth items if you do not want AF. Runs are free to members. The leader pays for the hourglass every run (except CoP, where we split the cost), and at the end of each month coins are sold to members (only those doing weapon upgrades) to cover the cost of the next month's runs.

I've only read the first 2 pages of this thread, 4 pages long now ^^; On to read the rest...

[Evelyn]

Only issues i see here is who/what decides MAIN job. Someone may have a 75 JOB that never gets used for 2 reason which are intertwined:
Someone may have had his first 75 job joined a LS attended lots of events as that job and geared it up nicely then leveled a second which in LS was not as needed because the LS at that time had a lot of other people who had that job and had used it all the time as it was their only 75 job and they geared it nicely.

How is this player ever gonna get the gear to compare to more "senior" players when you won''t let her lot for the items? If this player is a good player and puts a lot of effort in the LS who are you to deny him the items? Maybe he doesn't want to play his first 75 job anymore but isn't gonna want to come to an event with subpar gear as this wouldn;t be as beneficial to the LS.

He may get pissed off and leave cause they can't gear up the job they really want to play (and one day you may need them to play it) but someone who doesn't go to as many events as him can because it is their main job.
Points kinda take the edge off these kind of issues but i do agree they also have a lot of the downsides stated by others.

In my shell, every year you get an option to change your main job without penalty. Also, you can change your main job at any time, with officer's permission, for a slight dkp penalty and no lotting rights for 2 weeks.

And to be honest, I'm seeing exactly what you're talking about right now. I've been RDM main since I joined two years ago, and a little after ToAU release started leveling WAR. I finally got byakko haidate a couple months ago. Its not impossible for people to get gear for other jobs in this system. We're a lot of older players, so most of us are fairly well-geared with our main jobs, and new recruits are usually well geared as well. In a brand new shell with players all having walmart gear, yes this can be problematic for people to wait forever. Thats why you join a good end-game shell.

Only thing you need to worry about with point systems is point inflation. We're having that problem right now, some of the older members have 7k points, average is about 2-3k for members who have been around a fair bit. Just remember points in = points out and you're fine (IE if a mob 100% drops a single good item, and 30 people usually show up, make it worth 20-30x whatever the dkp for the raid is)

[palonious]

I've been in a "divine choice" linkshell, where all events were practically mandatory and officers decided drop allocation. It worked very well - I have no beef with that type of policy. In moving to "less serious" linkshell, as co-author of our policies I opted for a different ideology; I'll explain it briefly, however you're welcomed to browse our website's forums and/or drop me a PM. It's essentially derived from Adam Smith's Invisible Hand (self-interest guides the greater good) and a few other market concepts. While it requires intense management and is still not perfected, I still feel that it works well for us - and that maybe reading it can help you spark some ideas.

Our linkshell allocates specific systems to operate specific end-game events, with most attendance being optional. We depend on the event market: each event's popularity is measured by attendance to that event. We currently have an Event Point System, a Dynamis System, and a Limbus System.

For the first, each hour at an event is worth 2 points; kings are managed per window, large HNMs are done on commission (fixed value, based on claim and kill), and inpromptu Sky/Sea raids are rewarded with commission (per item donation and God Kills). A member's accumulated points are divided into the top player's points, with the resulting percentage grouping players into "Tiers" by every 10%. Players can only lot with those in their tiers; those so high that the Tiers are unbalanced are separated into "Gold" Status - pretty much eligible for every item that drops, should they be interested. The points are then "spent" when a member obtains an item, therefore lowering their available points and dropping their Tier. Some very select items have priorities coordinated based on Tiers (A Tier 0 Ranger won't be getting a Ridill just because he/she is Tier 0; he/she would be competing with a Tier 4 WAR/DRK).

[Churchill]

lol idk bro ima drk

[Grey Jorildyn]

This is especially attractive in shells that keep a bank and value their points against said bank. Everyone wants everyone else to spend points so their points are "worth more" when they trade them up for gil.

Beware of linkshells with "Banks".

Any gil not paid out in full on a regular basis, it is just gil waiting to be stolen.

Naturally. Karasu has never had a bank and never will. We do however have a Dynamis bank, which is self-funding. When the linkshell pays for the run (due to not having a sponsor), 1mil worth of drops are sold to pay for the next hourglass. The bank is capped to only hold 1 million gil at any given time, ever. The Dynamis leader is in charge of this bank and must keep an updated screenshot of what it holds on our forums. As shell holder, I also track this regularly.

@Ashira: we auction off money items to get them in the hands of people that need gil, crafters, w/e. The leaders hold onto nothing of value in the name of the linkshell and received absolutely no special treatement whatsoever. This is the safest approach you can take. Sold-and-split would be a nightmare in a linkshell with 30+ active members that attend an event like say, sky. The split would be on KS99-esque level too, so kinda pointless.

[Darus Grey]

I don't get the whole "Main Job" thing. It just breaks down with more advanced players who have so many options they begin to stop having a "main" job.

[Tomino]

worst part of any point system is the "Refresh" rate of points.
like having 3pt for attending 1 dynamis and 10pt cost for a Xarca piece. this way any sack/founding member will always overlot any other (on 2-3 jobs) simply because the item cost has no real meaning compared to the drop rate.
"point cost" should always be determined so you undergo a period while you can't lot much else. given a xarca piece drops 1/month, cost should be like 30, 40 or even 50 pts.

[Wizerd]

Items worth static values of points in a points system don't work. Bidding is win.

The problem I've always had with /point system when leading linkshells in the past is that I never gave myself much, since I felt obligated to gear my LS and such. Points system works better for me because I can get as much loot as anyone else, without question. But I only run Salvage atm.

[Riel]

Points systems with job priority still suck. If a person has more points than you, and can equip the item in question, the ONLY reason not to allow them to bid is being self-centered (and then falling back on "it's not fair" or "it doesn't help the LS"). You're mad they have more chances to lot items than you, because they lvled more jobs AND accumulated more points than you. This also make it easier for the LS to pigeon hole people into playing one or two jobs most/all the time anyhow.

I think it's funny how some of the most greed-based rules/systems are rationalized as being "more fair" because they prevent people who worked hard from getting items YOU don't think they should want. Buncha ignorant, jealous, selfish people.

[recuperi]

somebody wants a ridill and adaberk

i know what you mean though, sometimes you just gotta take one or ten for the team

[Woozie]

I'm a BST but I can't get the items I want because I'm practically useless compared to the other jobs who can wear my same stuff QQ

[Riel]

I have no real argument so I'm making a weak ad hominem attack

edit: I'm in a BST/SMN shell btw.

edit #2: Why the hell would my personal interests matter anyways? Yar if I can only convince BG that a certain point system is better I'll get a Ridill or whatever it is you think I want heh.

[Suiram]

Point systems without job priority only make sense for event-specific shells. A shell that does for instance only Limbus or only Sea it makes some sense, because there's no overriding LS interest in effectively gearing people to benefit the shell as a whole. People are just helping each other to get gear from that event, and then returning to their main LSs to use it. If, on the other hand, you have a LS that does a wide variety of events, your point system will likely fail without a job priority component built into it. It doesn't have to say "every time this drops it goes to this job over the other job that can equip regardless of points", but if it does an adequate job of balancing benefit to the LS against personal reward, it's going to help your LS in the long run over a simple points-only system.

[shukuffxi]

Points systems with job priority still suck. If a person has more points than you, and can equip the item in question, the ONLY reason not to allow them to bid is being self-centered (and then falling back on "it's not fair" or "it doesn't help the LS"). You're mad they have more chances to lot items than you, because they lvled more jobs AND accumulated more points than you. This also make it easier for the LS to pigeon hole people into playing one or two jobs most/all the time anyhow.

I think it's funny how some of the most greed-based rules/systems are rationalized as being "more fair" because they prevent people who worked hard from getting items YOU don't think they should want. Buncha ignorant, jealous, selfish people.

The problem with things like this, I think, comes down to the rarity of the items in question. When you see whatever <desired item> drop, in many cases you do not know when it'll come again. i.e: Someone who wants w.legs is probably thinking "We just did 2x Kirin, it might be another 3-4 weeks or more before we do another set, and it might not drop". You need to know your group will basically go and get everyone who wants stuff, what they want. By "everyone" I mean people who actually show up and are helpful, not random-asshat who shows up only to a gods and is like "Where's my damn w.legs already" I do not think many LS operate in this way, and it's kind of hard to, even with a small base of like 20-25 people, to get everyone, everything, they want from a place like sky, let alone ground kings.

A friend and I both wanted a Merciful Cape, we spent more than a week, in all free time, farming Eo'Aern's for HQ Organs, and killing Ix'MNK. Once the first cape dropped, I got it, then we went right back to farming more HQ organs, until my friend got his cape as well. This is how things should work. But doing this on a decent sized LS scale, means ALOT more work, and in situations that are not so simple as "just farm some HQ Aern Organs".

[ringly]

Check sig for why /point systems are better.

Grats on being a fucking stupid lootwhore?

agreed

[Riel]

Point systems without job priority only make sense for event-specific shells. A shell that does for instance only Limbus or only Sea it makes some sense, because there's no overriding LS interest in effectively gearing people to benefit the shell as a whole. People are just helping each other to get gear from that event, and then returning to their main LSs to use it. If, on the other hand, you have a LS that does a wide variety of events, your point system will likely fail without a job priority component built into it. It doesn't have to say "every time this drops it goes to this job over the other job that can equip regardless of points", but if it does an adequate job of balancing benefit to the LS against personal reward, it's going to help your LS in the long run over a simple points-only system.

I hate to sound this ZAMish, but why? I've been in shells with /point, points system with job priority, and without. The one without job priority was by FAR the most fair, and the shell would've been fine in the end if the leader had the balls to kick a couple drama queens.

On a seperate but related note, I do think policies limiting the ability of members to lot after they've vanished for weeks on end are good policies.

[Luto]

lol idk bro ima drk

gb2gamefags

[Tomino]

You're mad they have more chances to lot items than you, because they lvled more jobs AND accumulated more points than you.

a "fair" and moreover "nice" LS system wouldn't encourage nolife players being even more hardcore.
if you have someone exping fulltime with 6+ jobs, attending all events for drops, etc you're just abusing of a poor guy. which will eventually leave to join an even more hardcore LS should he find one.

after 3 jobs, you'dnt be allowed to lot anything more unless everyone else is served. this is a fair thing, and fair to those who work for the LS without spending their life on the game.

[Riel]

nuh uh

[Heian]

Point systems are retarded. Lock thread, its over.