Rune Chopper vs. Fortitude Axe for DRK/SAM Zerg

[Velecic]

Ok so yeah, I'm a somewhat Gimped DRK that doesn't have a Kraken Club (0/17 on the BCNM and I'm currently funding my Apocalypse so I am not buying one) and I'm working on my zerg setup with /SAM.

I'm comparing the following 2 weapons, and I can give my gear etc, I'm hoping that someone that's good with the formulas etc can help me decide which is better (I plan to test it myself too, but calculations help as well).

DRK/SAM - 75/37 - Desperate Blow lvl 3

So, Weapon wise I have :

Fortitude Axe : DMG 64 Delay 504 VIT + 7 Occasionally Attacks Twice (Virtue Stone)
Rune Chopper : DMG 88 Delay 504 Acc + 5 Haste + 9% (Drains MP)

Delay is the same so that should make calculations easier.

Gear-wise, I have Turban + Dusk Gloves + Dusk Feet + Swift Belt for 14% Haste (yes I know no homam ; ; I'm lotting body and it won't drop, so I get to watch the other stuff go by until it does)

JA Wise, I've got DB for 15% Delay Reduction + Hasso for 10% Haste ? (I forget if this is delay reduction or haste)

Grip is the -3% delay for 2-handed weapons one.

So To sum up, I have :
DB : 15% Delay Reduction (however this works)
Haste Gear : 14%
Hasso : 10% Haste / Delay Reduction (again not 100% sure on how this works)
Grip : 3% Delay Reduction
IN DYNAMIS ONLY : Catastrophe for 15? % Haste that doesn't count towards cap I believe? (not sure on this as well)
Haste Spell + Soul Voiced Marches (for a zerg setup)

Can someone really good with formulas & Numbers crunch this out for me? I'm not good with all that stuff, I've seen this kind of thing worked out on here before and I'm curious how it sets up.

Basically my questions are : With my setup + songs + haste, will Fortitude Axe outperform Rune Chopper in a zerg situation, or for that matter, should I just be using Bec de Faucon (in dynamis only)?

Sorry if some of this is confusing, I can clarify anything if anyone has questions, and if this should be in advanced discussion (was scared to put it there >.>) it can be moved there.

Thanks in advance for the help =)

[Undeadhunter]

Cata is 10% I think

also the Double Attack wont do better then the 9% Haste.
Cata goes towards equip haste cap (so 25% max)

Hasso & DB can break the haste cap of equip+magic (25%+ ~44%) to a max of 93.3% Haste

[Velecic]

So Catastrophe would allow me to say, wear less haste gear & more HP gear since I'd already be at the gear haste cap? I thought the Catastrophe haste went beyond that =(

Shouldn't the double attacks from Fortitude be better if I'm already hitting the 25% gear haste cap though ? (which Rune counts towards - provided I am hitting that cap)

Like if I use Catastrophe (10%) + Turban (5) + Belt (4) + Boots (2) + Hands (3) that already puts me at 24% haste, homam legs or feet would allow me to hit the 25% cap (if catas haste counts towards it) meaning the 9% off rune chopper would be meaningless no (since I'm already at the gear cap & getting haste + soul voice songs)

Just trying to work it out for effectiveness since this is the best I can do till I finish Apocalypse / get a Kraken.

Secondarily since I performed my first test just before posting this, I had a quick question about Blood Weapon. In my log it will say that I only drain 132 hp (current gear has me at 1321) back when I am hitting for 200-300 dmg. This makes sense in terms of what I can ACTUALLY drain since I am only consuming 10% of my hp per hit, but if I understand blood weapon correctly, I am still draining the same amount I am hitting for (200-300) per hit even though it doesn't say that right (similar to casting Drain for 0 / doing more than the hp you recover) ?

Thanks again for all help in this matter.

[Churchill]

why zerg if that's your max hp?

[Velecic]

why zerg if that's your max hp?

Well I guess I should expect half the replys to be rude / insulting me, so I'm just going to ignore this response and wait for posts from people that actually care to be helpful instead of those that feel the need to insult others for no real reason / flaunt their superiority over a videogame. For the record, that's NOT the hp I would have in a zerg situation / with the gear I want for it, it's what I had on me while doing a quick test outside whitegate, I was merely giving the numbers because I wanted confirmation that BW does indeed deal damage equal to what you hit for, not what you actually drain (ie HP you lose) as I've never tested it in ballista / whatever.

[Churchill]

not really insulting you, but if you want to zerg with that hp it's kind of pointless.

also good to have dread spikes up. BW covers the damage you deal but you're going to get hit as well.

[Velecic]

not really insulting you, but if you want to zerg with that hp it's kind of pointless.

also good to have dread spikes up. BW covers the damage you deal but you're going to get hit as well.

I'm curious how ~13,000 dmg in 30 seconds is "pointless" (this is how much I got off rough test with rune chopper, pretty bleh gear, no food; and lol1321hp).

I know its nothing compared to what a better setup / more hp / kraken club can do, but 13k dmg is still a lot of damage in 30 seconds last I checked...

And yeah, good reminder about the spikes lol, in a zerg situation I usually am so focused on executing everything right to do as much dmg as possible that I don't think about the whole defensive / staying alive thing.

[BerenTebogo]

not really insulting you, but if you want to zerg with that hp it's kind of pointless.

also good to have dread spikes up. BW covers the damage you deal but you're going to get hit as well.

I'm curious how ~13,000 dmg in 30 seconds is "pointless" (this is how much I got off rough test with rune chopper, pretty bleh gear, no food; and lol1321hp).

I know its nothing compared to what a better setup / more hp / kraken club can do, but 13k dmg is still a lot of damage in 30 seconds last I checked...

And yeah, good reminder about the spikes lol, in a zerg situation I usually am so focused on executing everything right to do as much dmg as possible that I don't think about the whole defensive / staying alive thing.

The reason it's kind of pointless is that DRK zerging is supposed to be a pretty much stand alone, unequivocable powerhouse for 30 seconds. NIN/DRK with a RDM chainspell healing and SV'd marches can do more than 13k to most monsters, it's not a bad free 13k damage, but with a little tweaking / effort it could be 17-20k.

Also I gather that you're stage 4 Relic Scythe, kinda about time to be tweaking gears / HQ anyways. Nobody likes an auction house relic.

[Seditedi]

not really insulting you, but if you want to zerg with that hp it's kind of pointless.

also good to have dread spikes up. BW covers the damage you deal but you're going to get hit as well.

I'm curious how ~13,000 dmg in 30 seconds is "pointless" (this is how much I got off rough test with rune chopper, pretty bleh gear, no food; and lol1321hp).

I know its nothing compared to what a better setup / more hp / kraken club can do, but 13k dmg is still a lot of damage in 30 seconds last I checked...

And yeah, good reminder about the spikes lol, in a zerg situation I usually am so focused on executing everything right to do as much dmg as possible that I don't think about the whole defensive / staying alive thing.

13k dmg on wut mob? Also whats ur max HP? Not tryin to insult you, but if you don't even have a HP gear set for Souleater, you should get a decent one before finishing your scythe.. lol. Relic is kind of the end all to complete a job imo, pointless to get if you are lacking many other things, a decent HP/haste souleater build is one of those things every 75 DRK should have >.>.

[Churchill]

that and a haste belt wut

[Velecic]

Unforntunately for me, I'm self-funding the relic, so it will be a while on Apocalypse as I have to pay for the coins myself. My DRK isn't really "Auction House", aside from pimped out HP gear for zerg fight / Homam (as stated I'm lotting Body in our group so I can't get any other pieces till I get that) / HQ Stuff It's pretty well equipped, but for the sake of being ridiculed, I'll post what I have since I'm open to tips on how to improve my favorite job. I am not in an end-game shell, just social + event shells, so I don't have King gear or that kind of stuff. Again, I'm expecting to be cut down for my gear, so feel free to tell me something sucks / should be upgraded, but keep in mind most of my funds are going towards Currency for Apoc so I am somewhat limited on what I can afford.

One big question I have is for Grip, I ended up getting Sword strap for the 3% delay down, is there a better option (I don't have a 6-hit build and since I usually cast absorb TP at some point before 100 tp it wouldn't matter too much what I get per hit anyways - or should I really be focusing on 6-hit for /SAM?) anyways, my gear:

TP Gear :

Weapon : Bec de Faucon
Grip : Sword Strap (delay -3%)
Ranged : Fire Bomblet
Head : Walahra Turban
Neck : Peacock Charm
Ear1 : Brutal Earring
Ear2 : Abyssal Earring
Body : Haubergeon
Hands : Dusk Gloves
Ring1 : Rajas Ring
Ring2 : Ulthalam's Ring
Back : Amemet Mantle +1
Waist : Swift Belt
Legs : Black Cuisses
Feet : Dusk Ledelsens

WS Gear :

Weapon : Bec de Faucon
Grip : Sword Strap (delay -3%)
Ranged : Fire Bomblet
Head : Chaos Burgeonet +1
Neck : Peacock Charm
Ear1 : Brutal Earring
Ear2 : Abyssal Earring
Body : Heactomb Harness
Hands : Chaos Gauntlets +1
Ring1 : Rajas Ring
Ring2 : Flame Ring
Back : Amemet Mantle +1
Waist : Warwolf Belt
Legs : Black Cuisses
Feet : Hecatomb Leggings

Aside from the obvious upgrades which I am working on, any tips are accepted. As far as tweaking for Zerg setup, I would be happy to see some gearsets, From what I understand my Focus should be on Haste -> HP correct?

Keep in mind before you ridicule me / cut me down / etc that I don't have an end-game shell nor do I want one and therefore I do not have access to HNM gears. Sky / Sea / Salvage / etc I am working on and its just a matter of drops / time before I get things like Justice Torque & Homam.

Anyways, I've never been great with the whole forums things, so if anything I say doesn't make sense / sounds stupid, feel free to ask about it.

@ Seditedi : The reason I don't have a zerg setup is I don't get to play my drk that much for 90% of things I'm doing in the game (therefore I don't actually get to zerg with it) and therefore I can't justify spending a ton of gil on HP gear that I would almost never use - as far as haste goes short of homam & speed/velocious I have it. The mob I tested on was a Marid outside whitegate. Max HP would be a lot higher with HP gear + Dark Seal Drain 2.

@ Churchill : How does haste belt work again exactly and is it worth getting one?

Sorry if I snapped at anyone, I just don't like being insulted / cut down when I'm asking for help, specifically since I made sure to put it in the newbie section. I guess it's just the way people responded in a rude manner (or could be taken that way - its only text) instead of in a helpful manner.

[Seditedi]

Look it up on wiki

* This Haste effect does stack with both Haste and March, and does not count toward the 25% Gear-Haste cap.
* The effect is 10% Haste.
* The effect duration is 3 minutes.
* The belt must remain equipped for the effect to remain active.

[Velecic]

Thanks for the quick info... buying one now, wow can't believe I didn't have one of those XD and yeah I should have looked it up on wiki I have heard about it before but it wasn't talked about commonly so I didn't think of it.

So from what I understand (and reading the first reply to this) the maximum speed that can be achieved is 93.3% haste.

so to hit that, I'd need :

Haste from spells (haste + marchs (if soul voiced)) : 44% (right ?)
Haste from belt : 10%
Hasso : 10%
Desperate Blows : 15%

That brings me to 79% Haste (if it adds up that way, once again I'm not good with all this formula stuff etc), meaning I need 14.3% from gear, anything over that could be replaced with +hp gear. That could easily be achieved with just Rune Chopper + Walahra Turban, does that mean I don't need the dusk (obviously I'd use them anyways because of the +hp on them) to hit haste cap? Also, does this mean that in dynamis I could hit the haste cap while using Bec de Faucon with Catastrophe? (10% haste someone said? counts towards gear cap?) I'm just trying to understand this and work on my setup so maybe I can use drk more in events once I show friends what I can do. If I could hit the haste cap without soul voiced marches that would be some pretty awsome damage every 6min with spam cures Thanks again to everyone for the helpful replies!

[BerenTebogo]

Honestly none of that really looks all too bad, but since you can self fund relic, small items such as Cassie earring, Intruder Earring, Gigant Mantle, BQ ring, BB Ring are great HP pieces that do really belong in a situation where you zerg, even if only 5-10% of the time you play DRK is zerging. It's not much money, from an outsiders stand point, lotting Homam body first for DRK is a bad decision, given other body choices even besides adaberk vs. other slots for HP / MP / ACC / Haste given by Homam, but that's just me.

Other than that, I do understand not being in endgame HNM shell, so your normal gear really isn't bad at all given, I don't think anybody can really argue that. But in this era of zerging EVERYTHING, I still have full resist sets for both PLD and NIN that never, ever, ever get used because nothing lives longer than 5 minutes anymore (besides tiamat / ouryu) but I'm still glad I have them when the situation arises.

At least just the R/E pieces, BQ Intruder BB ring, and lets say, the T10 ISP mantle, really should be looked into for zerging purposes, if you can drop a little gil, get a cassie and gigant, I don't know the math but its something like for every +200 HP you have its +thousands of damage over 30s.

[Velecic]

Honestly none of that really looks all too bad, but since you can self fund relic, small items such as Cassie earring, Intruder Earring, Gigant Mantle, BQ ring, BB Ring are great HP pieces that do really belong in a situation where you zerg, even if only 5-10% of the time you play DRK is zerging. It's not much money, from an outsiders stand point, lotting Homam body first for DRK is a bad decision, given other body choices even besides adaberk vs. other slots for HP / MP / ACC / Haste given by Homam, but that's just me.

Other than that, I do understand not being in endgame HNM shell, so your normal gear really isn't bad at all given, I don't think anybody can really argue that. But in this era of zerging EVERYTHING, I still have full resist sets for both PLD and NIN that never, ever, ever get used because nothing lives longer than 5 minutes anymore (besides tiamat / ouryu) but I'm still glad I have them when the situation arises.

At least just the R/E pieces, BQ Intruder BB ring, and lets say, the T10 ISP mantle, really should be looked into for zerging purposes, if you can drop a little gil, get a cassie and gigant, I don't know the math but its something like for every +200 HP you have its +thousands of damage over 30s.

Thanks for more helpful info! I would like to get BQ Ring, and I guess I should be able to camp intruder / try to get ahold of some of the other items suggested. As far as the homam goes, I chose body because the job I play the most is THF (lolthwhore) and its the rarest piece and since I was one of the first members in the group I had the lowest seniority date (join date affecting ranking). In Hindsight it was a bad decision as I could have 1-2 pieces by now and legs would be MUCH more beneficial for my drk but I will eventually get 5/5 homam anyways, or at least I should, I just have to wait since our luck on body sucks (0/4) so far.

[Spekkio]

could have sworn i remembered that haste belt counted towards magic cap, which makes it far less useful since that can be reached w/ a brd 2 hr and a haste spell. lacking soul voice, however, it's not a horrible alternative i suppose.

[Velecic]

That's what I thought, I remember reading about it then finding out it counted towards haste song / spell cap and figured "oh it's basically useless then", is there a link or anything to where it was confirmed that it stacks with songs / spell?

[Wulfgang]

Staying alive is pretty important. At our last Tiamat I got about 10 swings in, Roar, double-criticaled and dropped. I use an Octave Club but the gear / strategy still stands. Looking over your gear, besides the HP gear mentioned, Id look into a pair of Sable Cuisses so you can keep the ACC from Haub and the haste from Turban while still having the enhanced Souleater effect.

could have sworn i remembered that haste belt counted towards magic cap, which makes it far less useful since that can be reached w/ a brd 2 hr and a haste spell. lacking soul voice, however, it's not a horrible alternative i suppose.

Haste Belt is essential for any fight where you're zerging multiple times. Bv2, DL, etc SV is fine; JoL, Tiamat, Vrtra it's money (unless you have 6 Kraken DRKs "one-shotting" it). It's also nice for times when you want to abuse zerging power to solo something. I drop the Mammett in Uninvited Guests in like 15 seconds every week using a Haste Belt to help.

[Churchill]

Legs should be first, because you can rep the other peices with buyable gear. Unless you use the SE legs, which, meh. Better pieces.

[Velecic]

From what I understand the best option is Walahra Turban + Gloom Breastplate no? (acc isn't really an issue with Souleater up / Feint on the mob anyways) I have the subligar and have tossed the breastplate when I was running low on inventory but I think I'm going to get it back again lol (granted I don't have homam legs which would be ideal, so I could give up leg slot for sable cuisses and keep hauby for body, but I'm not sure I want to try to camp / buy a pair of those when they will be replaced when I get homam and could be replaced now by breastplate. Thoughts?

@ Churchill : Yep, I regret not lotting legs first a lot now ; ; but I'm stuck on body till it drops unless I want to give up the body to be third in line for pants... so yeah I'll get body first and legs eventually when we get 3-4 more pairs.