Hey SE

[riddaraan]

I guess I've never noticed this.

But in response to BRP's commentary: I think that a WS at 100% should be, as you said 1.0. But then to have it go 1.0 > 2.0 means a 100% increase. Where 2.0 > 3.0 means only a 50% increase. So perhaps 1.0 > 1.5 > 3.0? Or does it do that already? Basically, I think 300% should be severly stronger in nearly every situation. Like, a Flat Blade at 300% should be akin to a 15 second stun. As it is, it's like -10 second stun. Meaning, the mob is unstunned before the dialogue for the stun text comes up.

:D Well, in my current LS *shamless OD plug*, my support is fucking great! But in previous LS's *cough*Unsent*cough*, that wasn't the case. Of course, if Mistress Firiel had ever thought PLDs were worth a damn...

Dude, wtf, she LEVELED PLD.. haven't you seen her running around in .. what is it she wears.. like, full Dusk or whatever? Come on, that's hot.

omg... PUKE!!! ; ; God, why?????

[RKenshin]

<- Noob PLD in Dyna, but can you explain how an Eye in Xarc pops mob, the mobs are completely untouched by any member until a BRD Lullabies them. At this point, only the BRD has any hate on the slept mobs, and I proceed to Flash one, and Cure the BRD if he took any damage. 20-30 sec later the mob wakes up, and completely ignores me and goes for the BRD? I know Flash hate dissipates quickly, but a PLD with 30+ enmity on Flash, should have hate when the mob wakes up, not just be on the hate list.

Sry for derail

This whole thread is a big derail lol.. I wouldn't worry about it.

Flash or Provoke alone usually don't do jack by themselves as far as getting the attention of slept mobs go. As you said, the hate disappates over time and more often than not, if you voke or Flash a mob that was just slept, then by the time the mob wakes up your hate from the initial voke and Flash would've disappated a lot; way below the hate that the sleeper obtained from the initial sleep.

The best bet IMO is to get hate on the mobs with a combination of Flash+Provoke and cures on yourself/sleepers. IE, curing the sleeper (even if it's just a low level Cure I to put you on the hate list), using Flash+Provoke on choice mobs as the ability/spell is ready, and then curing yourself (throwing at least one Cure IV on yourself would be ideal). Doing that cycle once should just about guarantee the mob goes for you first after it wakes up assuming it's undamaged.

In the time it takes mobs to wake up you should also be able to get a good 5+ mobs on you as well. Although typically you don't want more than 3 so you can still cast to hold hate, and not die. This is also assuming they all wake up at once, since not every LS staggers Sleep IIs (which is much more ideal).

[Seraph]

I guess I've never noticed this.

But in response to BRP's commentary: I think that a WS at 100% should be, as you said 1.0. But then to have it go 1.0 > 2.0 means a 100% increase. Where 2.0 > 3.0 means only a 50% increase. So perhaps 1.0 > 1.5 > 3.0? Or does it do that already? Basically, I think 300% should be severly stronger in nearly every situation. Like, a Flat Blade at 300% should be akin to a 15 second stun. As it is, it's like -10 second stun. Meaning, the mob is unstunned before the dialogue for the stun text comes up.

:D Well, in my current LS *shamless OD plug*, my support is fucking great! But in previous LS's *cough*Unsent*cough*, that wasn't the case. Of course, if Mistress Firiel had ever thought PLDs were worth a damn...

Dude, wtf, she LEVELED PLD.. haven't you seen her running around in .. what is it she wears.. like, full Dusk or whatever? Come on, that's hot.

omg... PUKE!!! ; ; God, why?????

Lack of Homam is the only acceptable answer here.

[Fhqwghads]

:D Well, in my current LS *shamless OD plug*, my support is fucking great! But in previous LS's *cough*Unsent*cough*, that wasn't the case. Of course, if Mistress Firiel had ever thought PLDs were worth a damn...

Dude, wtf, she LEVELED PLD.. haven't you seen her running around in .. what is it she wears.. like, full Dusk or whatever? Come on, that's hot.

Someone in full dusk gear isn't running anywhere.


See what I did thar?

[Ashira]

I guess I've never noticed this.

But in response to BRP's commentary: I think that a WS at 100% should be, as you said 1.0. But then to have it go 1.0 > 2.0 means a 200% increase. Where 2.0 > 3.0 means only a 50% increase. So perhaps 1.0 > 1.5 > 3.0? Or does it do that already? Basically, I think 300% should be severly stronger in nearly every situation. Like, a Flat Blade at 300% should be akin to a 15 second stun. As it is, it's like -10 second stun. Meaning, the mob is unstunned before the dialogue for the stun text comes up.

WTF...

Ridd, do you KNOW how long a 15 second Stun would be? oO Fifteen seconds is insanity and waaaaaaaay too overpowered. I mean, me and a few BLM friends like to time ours and brag when we hit like, six or seven seconds... fifteen... would be nuts.


As to Firi... well, she's had full dusk forever, just cuz... she could. I dunno, she buys things in sets. No one ever said she was practical.


EDIT: I see what you did there!

[Caestus]

all i said was make WAR more desirable in situations (most) where they are not desirable at all.


sorry for ruffling all your pompous ass feathers. i stirred up something controversial and bam, get hated on. when even others who understand what i'm talking about said they are rather obsolete.

all of you from Alexander who seem to follow me around wherever i go. that's great. but if you make up lies and rumors about me, stop following me. there is no need for your pointless, made up flames.

The bottom line: i'm a Warrior who can tank anything in this game with success. (outside of AV) all i was trying to suggest was a few things to put minor tweaks on a Job that was said it was gonna be alterd over a year ago to make them more of what SE intended them for. it's been so long i forgot what interview it was from so sorry.



to those i offended in suggesting what i did. my apologies. i think Warrior is the DD tank. and PLD is the Defensive tank in the game. i just think, while close, failed a little short in making Warrior the DD tank it should be. that is where all this came from.

[BerenTebogo]

Or you know, NIN is the DD tank, if you don't suck at it.

Edit to go along with Seraph's response as well:

If your WAR isn't desireable in many diverse situations, you're doing it wrong, period.

It's not the job, it's you.

[Seraph]

all i said was make WAR more desirable in situations (most) where they are not desirable at all.

You can unequip the Riddil from the Warrior, but you can't unequip the Warrior from the Riddil?


Or something like that...?

Trailerparks...?

.........aw, the hell with it.

[Caestus]

Or you know, NIN is the DD tank, if you don't suck at it.

yes and no. teqnically NIN wasn't supposed to be a tank SE has just come to accept if they alter it it would be a bad thing. WAR and PLD were intended to be the 2 tanks.

i do however agree that NIN should DD to keep hate on mobs like Faf and stuff

[Sidanoir]

We use 2 PLD tops in any dyanmis....and there only job is to keep slept mobs from face pwning mages, a properly timed/flash and voke will prevent slept mobs from getting any hits on your mages (as was said the Cure IVs, certain JAs are really what solidifies the hate, but a flash/voke spike will make a mob that just woke turn to you), and for those PLDs too noob to know /assist is a great tool to see what mob is on who.
For Xarc NMs we let any Utsusemi DD tank 2 of them, while rest gang up on one...lots of ways to do things as always in this game. Also with the 2 hander buff we had 2 SAM/WAR duoing Xarc NMs lol...

PLD/NIN does not fit into our large ass pull play style ( I like MPKing in dynamis too!)..
Granted if your mages are really good they shouldn't need much help in staying alive while sleeping mobs, but I like not leaving things to chance in Xarc...

Caestus, Warrior is a fine job...give it up already it certainly does not need any enhancements

[BerenTebogo]

ACTUALLY

WAR PLD and SAM were the tanks, you're pulling shit out of your ass, and it's mostly wrong.

If you can't hold hate on Fafnir as NIN unengaged you're doing it wrong...again.

Occam's (sp?) Razor suggests that the problem here is not that the jobs and situations need fixing, it's just that you're a poor player.

[arus2001]

every weaponskill, when it's highlighted, in the right or w/e (been a while since i've played) has a little bar that shows your tp and the tp% required for the weapon skill. however, all weapon skills cost 100%, so it's completely and totally fucking redundant to be seeing your tp in like 3 different locations at once, and then tell you how much tp you need when every weaponskill requires the same amount of tp

Likely a carry-over from mob mechanics. We know it's generally accepted that mobs tend to WS at 100% under 20% life, that they get more TP when hit, and that some get TP regen, but we can't exactly get a BST to Charm Fafnir to see if his Wing just used 25% instead of 100% or more. I imagine Ryko would probably have that screenshot handy where it was either Faf or Nid using TP moves 5-6 times in the span of like 10 seconds. Bug? Possibly. Though I'm sure we've all had moments where mob TP moves didn't quite add up with actions against them, even with TP control in mind.

[riddaraan]

ACTUALLY

WAR PLD and SAM were the tanks, you're pulling shit out of your ass, and it's mostly wrong.

If you can't hold hate on Fafnir as NIN unengaged you're doing it wrong...again.

Occam's (sp?) Razor suggests that the problem here is not that the jobs and situations need fixing, it's just that you're a poor player.

ACTUALLY
I went to last year's FanFest, and during one of the panels, something like this occured:

Fan, "Was SAM meant to be a tank?"
DevTeam, "No."

[BerenTebogo]

Ok, no SAM, rest still holds true.

[Caestus]

ACTUALLY

WAR PLD and SAM were the tanks, you're pulling shit out of your ass, and it's mostly wrong.

If you can't hold hate on Fafnir as NIN unengaged you're doing it wrong...again.

Occam's (sp?) Razor suggests that the problem here is not that the jobs and situations need fixing, it's just that you're a poor player.

a poor player -.-? anyone on Caitsith wanna let me tank for them on my WAR so i may show off some?


and Myrla i read what you say but i don't respond to it. cuz it's pointless, i pretty much ignore it. i'm just poor at presenting myself on a forum.sue me :/ people who take the time to get to know me and understand me don't have problems with me.

[shukuffxi]

We use 2 PLD tops in any dyanmis....and there only job is to keep slept mobs from face pwning mages, a properly timed/flash and voke will prevent slept mobs from getting any hits on your mages, and for those PLDs too noob to know /assist is a great tool to see what mob is on who.
For Xarc NMs we let any Utsusemi DD tank 2 of them, while rest gang up on one...lots of ways to do things as always in this game. Also with the 2 hander buff we had 2 SAM/WAR duoing Xarc NMs lol...

PLD/NIN does not fit into our large ass pull play style ( I like MPKing in dynamis too!)..
Granted if your mages are really good they shouldn't need much help in staying alive while sleeping mobs, but I like not leaving things to chance in Xarc...

Caestus, Warrior is a fine job...give it up already it certainly does not need any enhancements

Properly timed as in = When they wake up? I know how long Lullaby and Sleeps last, and pay attention to the chat log to see when they're cast but, it sort of defeats the purpose of having a single PLD/WAR grabbing hate on slept mobs, since if "proper" timing is shortly before they wake, and you have say 5 normal mobs, you're not gonna be able to get hate on them all that way.

As for letting our melee tank, we generally try to bring 2 THF if possible, we tend to believe in Placebo Hunter. I'd say on average we have 1-2 WAR, 1 SAM, and maybe 1 DRK as well, the SAM tends to sub THF and TA/SATA (we all line up properly so it's not like it's a big deal) so our healers aren't over taxed. Of course, this is given our regular xarca run is on avg. 10-18 people, if we had more, letting the melee use subs to improve their damage at the cost of their survival would be easier since we'd have more support. Aside from the above listed we tend to have 1-2 PLD (sometines a NIN), 1 WHM, 1-2 RDM and 1-2 BRD. Generally, we have enough time to kill all the NMs we want AF2 from, and a ton of normal mobs.

Obviously if you have like 30 people, and have several healers, letting your melee go full force will work better, as long as you can support it.

I'm just not sold on the whole "PLD/WAR is gonna get solid enough hate on <insert # of slept mobs> to make it worthwhile to PLD/WAR. Recently Kaeko's blog went into this a bit, and showed how his LS just lets a single BLM Sleep many mobs, and keep hate and stay alive while the others deal with one, completely negating the need for PLD/WAR type of crowd control, and this seems the most effecient way to handle such situations.

[riddaraan]

I suppose a good point to be made on the WAR tanking aspect is this:

Can RDMs be main healer in HNM setup? Sure! But why should they, when you have a WHM available? They should spend their time doing supplimental curing, but more importantly, enfeebling, and buffing their PTs with Refresh & Haste & such. Simply put, their better used elsewhere. Similarly with WAR tanking. Can they? Sure. But why would you want them to, when you'd much rather have them doing what they do best, blowing shit up with a Great Axe.

[Caestus]

I suppose a good point to be made on the WAR tanking aspect is this:

Can RDMs be main healer in HNM setup? Sure! But why should they, when you have a WHM available? They should spend their time doing supplimental curing, but more importantly, enfeebling, and buffing their PTs with Refresh & Haste & such. Simply put, their better used elsewhere. Similarly with WAR tanking. Can they? Sure. But why would you want them to, when you'd much rather have them doing what they do best, blowing shit up with a Great Axe.

i like this. good way to put it. except change Great Axe to Ridill.


but generally you will have SAM and DRK instead of WAR so unless your LS is pro WAR you are screwed.

[Sidanoir]

We use 2 PLD tops in any dyanmis....and there only job is to keep slept mobs from face pwning mages, a properly timed/flash and voke will prevent slept mobs from getting any hits on your mages, and for those PLDs too noob to know /assist is a great tool to see what mob is on who.
For Xarc NMs we let any Utsusemi DD tank 2 of them, while rest gang up on one...lots of ways to do things as always in this game. Also with the 2 hander buff we had 2 SAM/WAR duoing Xarc NMs lol...

PLD/NIN does not fit into our large ass pull play style ( I like MPKing in dynamis too!)..
Granted if your mages are really good they shouldn't need much help in staying alive while sleeping mobs, but I like not leaving things to chance in Xarc...

Caestus, Warrior is a fine job...give it up already it certainly does not need any enhancements

Properly timed as in = When they wake up? I know how long Lullaby and Sleeps last, and pay attention to the chat log to see when they're cast but, it sort of defeats the purpose of having a single PLD/WAR grabbing hate on slept mobs, since if "proper" timing is shortly before they wake, and you have say 5 normal mobs, you're not gonna be able to get hate on them all that way.

As for letting our melee tank, we generally try to bring 2 THF if possible, we tend to believe in Placebo Hunter. I'd say on average we have 1-2 WAR, 1 SAM, and maybe 1 DRK as well, the SAM tends to sub THF and TA/SATA (we all line up properly so it's not like it's a big deal) so our healers aren't over taxed. Of course, this is given our regular xarca run is on avg. 10-18 people, if we had more, letting the melee use subs to improve their damage at the cost of their survival would be easier since we'd have more support. Aside from the above listed we tend to have 1-2 PLD (sometines a NIN), 1 WHM, 1-2 RDM and 1-2 BRD. Generally, we have enough time to kill all the NMs we want AF2 from, and a ton of normal mobs.

Obviously if you have like 30 people, and have several healers, letting your melee go full force will work better, as long as you can support it.

I'm just not sold on the whole "PLD/WAR is gonna get solid enough hate on <insert # of slept mobs> to make it worthwhile to PLD/WAR. Recently Kaeko's blog went into this a bit, and showed how his LS just lets a single BLM Sleep many mobs, and keep hate and stay alive while the others deal with one, completely negating the need for PLD/WAR type of crowd control, and this seems the most effecient way to handle such situations.

Once you have solidified hate, it doesn't need to be as they wake up...but as was said curing to get on hate list, and then using bigger Cures + trying to space out your flash/voke, these are all ways to maintain a high hate level...on the first round of sleeps, if you voke just as a mob wakes you would probably get hate having done nothing else, if you voke as soon as it is slept its gonna hit the mage...just gotta space out your hate tools, so that you have some form of spike on first round of sleep by then you should have had enough time to build pretty solid hate. I guess its more of an art than a science, fortunately my PLDs are pretty good at it
And yes Kaekos method is by far the most efficient, although it takes a lot more chances and skill to pull off.

[Sidanoir]

I suppose a good point to be made on the WAR tanking aspect is this:

Can RDMs be main healer in HNM setup? Sure! But why should they, when you have a WHM available? They should spend their time doing supplimental curing, but more importantly, enfeebling, and buffing their PTs with Refresh & Haste & such. Simply put, their better used elsewhere. Similarly with WAR tanking. Can they? Sure. But why would you want them to, when you'd much rather have them doing what they do best, blowing shit up with a Great Axe.

i like this. good way to put it. except change Great Axe to Ridill.


but generally you will have SAM and DRK instead of WAR so unless your LS is pro WAR you are screwed.

It more and more sounds like your LS doesn't let you tank, so they need to make WAR better so they will, then WAR can't tank the more you talk...