Hey SE

[Koyangi]

Yeah, statistical math is awesome but just because you must use 280MP/minute to make Conserve MP worthwhile over Auto-Refresh on the paper doesn't mean it's the same in reality. Especially since activation rate is based on how many spells you cast and MP cost only indirectly effects efficiency. This is why I'm surprised people throw around that "you must cast 280 MP per minute" term ... I wanna bet if I cast two spells worth that MP value per minute I most likely won't reach Auto-Regen unless I get lucky.

actually, it's statistical math that says it *doesn't* matter (averaged out over time).

so I wouldn't take that bet if I were you, unless you specified a (relatively brief) interval.

My point was that WHM doesn't need to be "fixed" in regards to MP stamina unlike some people pointed out.

how about how every other job with mp (and two that don't even have mp) have better mp conservation/recovery traits/abilities than whitemage; and that several of these jobs are (generally speaking) considered better healers except in endgame alliance events, and sometimes even there?

WHM has good MP stamina if you are a good WHM, I don't gear for "max MP" by any long stretch either and can maintain very well, HNM or merits. A good 30% of this also comes from competent refreshers. On that note, in merits for example on RDM I sometimes forget I have convert because of my MP skills as WHM, I don't see my MP at a danger level every 10 minutes.

lol sometimes I'll purposly spend a shitton of MP just to use convert, but not too often.

[Meropi]

Yeah, statistical math is awesome but just because you must use 280MP/minute to make Conserve MP worthwhile over Auto-Refresh on the paper doesn't mean it's the same in reality. Especially since activation rate is based on how many spells you cast and MP cost only indirectly effects efficiency. This is why I'm surprised people throw around that "you must cast 280 MP per minute" term ... I wanna bet if I cast two spells worth that MP value per minute I most likely won't reach Auto-Regen unless I get lucky.

actually, it's statistical math that says it *doesn't* matter (averaged out over time).

so I wouldn't take that bet if I were you, unless you specified a (relatively brief) interval.

My point was that WHM doesn't need to be "fixed" in regards to MP stamina unlike some people pointed out.

how about how every other job with mp (and two that don't even have mp) have better mp conservation/recovery traits/abilities than whitemage; and that several of these jobs are (generally speaking) considered better healers except in endgame alliance events, and sometimes even there?

WHM has good MP stamina if you are a good WHM, I don't gear for "max MP" by any long stretch either and can maintain very well, HNM or merits. A good 30% of this also comes from competent refreshers. On that note, in merits for example on RDM I sometimes forget I have convert because of my MP skills as WHM, I don't see my MP at a danger level every 10 minutes.

lol sometimes I'll purposly spend a shitton of MP just to use convert, but not too often.

I don't usually have to worry about MP on WHM or RDM either (granted my RDM is only 72). It's more about knowing how to handle the needs of the party versus the wants of the party. Does every melee in my party want Haste? Hell, yes. Are they going to get it? Not if I can't spare the MP at that moment.

As for the AA thing, I usually find that it's not worth the time/MP cost to use it, especially with access to things like Seigan. If I end up with a DRK who can't bother to use Drain to his advantage, I let him die. Learn not to be an idiot when in meripo.

[Lordwafik]

wouldn't MP be more effectively if you just rested instead of stood up > casted garuda (mp poof) ran to party > cast AA (mp poof) > release > ran back to heal ?


I mean I can imagine that's 3-4 tics of MP at least for an extremely mediocre blink that's very innacurate.

[Meropi]

Yes. Especially with cookies and all the hmp gear available to you.

edit: it's early

[Amele]

Yeah, statistical math is awesome but just because you must use 280MP/minute to make Conserve MP worthwhile over Auto-Refresh on the paper doesn't mean it's the same in reality. Especially since activation rate is based on how many spells you cast and MP cost only indirectly effects efficiency. This is why I'm surprised people throw around that "you must cast 280 MP per minute" term ... I wanna bet if I cast two spells worth that MP value per minute I most likely won't reach Auto-Regen unless I get lucky.

actually, it's statistical math that says it *doesn't* matter (averaged out over time).

so I wouldn't take that bet if I were you, unless you specified a (relatively brief) interval.

My point was that WHM doesn't need to be "fixed" in regards to MP stamina unlike some people pointed out.

how about how every other job with mp (and two that don't even have mp) have better mp conservation/recovery traits/abilities than whitemage; and that several of these jobs are (generally speaking) considered better healers except in endgame alliance events, and sometimes even there?

WHM has good MP stamina if you are a good WHM, I don't gear for "max MP" by any long stretch either and can maintain very well, HNM or merits. A good 30% of this also comes from competent refreshers. On that note, in merits for example on RDM I sometimes forget I have convert because of my MP skills as WHM, I don't see my MP at a danger level every 10 minutes.

lol sometimes I'll purposly spend a shitton of MP just to use convert, but not too often.

good mp management is an important skill - but that's similar to pre-update dragoons before saying they could keep up with super-careful play.

there's something wrong when a mediocre redmage can heal as well and maintain mp better (see: never needing to rest or have outside refreshing) than a very good whitemage. (who, in addition to needing to pay careful attention to when and how they rest; needs outside help for 'a good 30%')

[Koyangi]

Yeah, statistical math is awesome but just because you must use 280MP/minute to make Conserve MP worthwhile over Auto-Refresh on the paper doesn't mean it's the same in reality. Especially since activation rate is based on how many spells you cast and MP cost only indirectly effects efficiency. This is why I'm surprised people throw around that "you must cast 280 MP per minute" term ... I wanna bet if I cast two spells worth that MP value per minute I most likely won't reach Auto-Regen unless I get lucky.

actually, it's statistical math that says it *doesn't* matter (averaged out over time).

so I wouldn't take that bet if I were you, unless you specified a (relatively brief) interval.

My point was that WHM doesn't need to be "fixed" in regards to MP stamina unlike some people pointed out.

how about how every other job with mp (and two that don't even have mp) have better mp conservation/recovery traits/abilities than whitemage; and that several of these jobs are (generally speaking) considered better healers except in endgame alliance events, and sometimes even there?

WHM has good MP stamina if you are a good WHM, I don't gear for "max MP" by any long stretch either and can maintain very well, HNM or merits. A good 30% of this also comes from competent refreshers. On that note, in merits for example on RDM I sometimes forget I have convert because of my MP skills as WHM, I don't see my MP at a danger level every 10 minutes.

lol sometimes I'll purposly spend a shitton of MP just to use convert, but not too often.

good mp management is an important skill - but that's similar to pre-update dragoons before saying they could keep up with super-careful play.

there's something wrong when a mediocre redmage can heal as well and maintain mp better (see: never needing to rest or have outside refreshing) than a very good whitemage. (who, in addition to needing to pay careful attention to when and how they rest; needs outside help for 'a good 30%')

The reference I was making was the 30% is the amount of "outside help" the WHM receives to be on "equal" padding to a RDM in MP conservation and longevity. I was saying I myself, proving this to myself and others as well, the skill I have in being good with MP on my WHM in merits and HNM is above par because I've been the only Healer in a merit party (for example) in a situation where most people on these boards would pick a RDM, and I still did the chain 400+ they got. I wouldnt expect a mediocre RDM or WHM perhaps to do the same thing. Having awesome Hmp gear accessable to all my mage jobs does play a big role in this as well. (resting mp on my RDM instead of relying on vert because of my many years of being WHM, leads to the conclusion why I dont vert but in rare occasions on RDM.)

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

I don't usually have to worry about MP on WHM or RDM either (granted my RDM is only 72). It's more about knowing how to handle the needs of the party versus the wants of the party. Does every melee in my party want Haste? Hell, yes. Are they going to get it? Not if I can't spare the MP at that moment.

As for the AA thing, I usually find that it's not worth the time/MP cost to use it, especially with access to things like Seigan. If I end up with a DRK who can't bother to use Drain to his advantage, I let him die. Learn not to be an idiot when in meripo.

I'm guessing you get 15k/hour TOP with your merit parties.

[Meropi]

I don't usually have to worry about MP on WHM or RDM either (granted my RDM is only 72). It's more about knowing how to handle the needs of the party versus the wants of the party. Does every melee in my party want Haste? Hell, yes. Are they going to get it? Not if I can't spare the MP at that moment.

As for the AA thing, I usually find that it's not worth the time/MP cost to use it, especially with access to things like Seigan. If I end up with a DRK who can't bother to use Drain to his advantage, I let him die. Learn not to be an idiot when in meripo.

I'm guessing you get 15k/hour TOP with your merit parties.

Honestly I don't know... I never really keep track. Nor do I care if I'm not getting OMGWTFBBQ 25k/hr.

[aurik]

I don't usually have to worry about MP on WHM or RDM either (granted my RDM is only 72). It's more about knowing how to handle the needs of the party versus the wants of the party. Does every melee in my party want Haste? Hell, yes. Are they going to get it? Not if I can't spare the MP at that moment.

As for the AA thing, I usually find that it's not worth the time/MP cost to use it, especially with access to things like Seigan. If I end up with a DRK who can't bother to use Drain to his advantage, I let him die. Learn not to be an idiot when in meripo.

I'm guessing you get 15k/hour TOP with your merit parties.

Honestly I don't know... I never really keep track. Nor do I care if I'm not getting OMGWTFBBQ 25k/hr.

Awesome, now stop trying to speak with experience.

[Tekki]

Take off the 15min repop on gods in sky. Spending 3 hrs on something I can do in 30min is getting old

[Starblaster]

Add a mute button to the sound effect and music volume bars, that or make them scroll a lot faster.

[spooky]

Add a mute button to the sound effect and music volume bars, that or make them scroll a lot faster.

I was actually hoping we could get a Windower plug-in to do this.
/wave Star (if you're from Shiva, it's FD. :P)

[Amele]

Yeah, statistical math is awesome but just because you must use 280MP/minute to make Conserve MP worthwhile over Auto-Refresh on the paper doesn't mean it's the same in reality. Especially since activation rate is based on how many spells you cast and MP cost only indirectly effects efficiency. This is why I'm surprised people throw around that "you must cast 280 MP per minute" term ... I wanna bet if I cast two spells worth that MP value per minute I most likely won't reach Auto-Regen unless I get lucky.

actually, it's statistical math that says it *doesn't* matter (averaged out over time).

so I wouldn't take that bet if I were you, unless you specified a (relatively brief) interval.

My point was that WHM doesn't need to be "fixed" in regards to MP stamina unlike some people pointed out.

how about how every other job with mp (and two that don't even have mp) have better mp conservation/recovery traits/abilities than whitemage; and that several of these jobs are (generally speaking) considered better healers except in endgame alliance events, and sometimes even there?

WHM has good MP stamina if you are a good WHM, I don't gear for "max MP" by any long stretch either and can maintain very well, HNM or merits. A good 30% of this also comes from competent refreshers. On that note, in merits for example on RDM I sometimes forget I have convert because of my MP skills as WHM, I don't see my MP at a danger level every 10 minutes.

lol sometimes I'll purposly spend a shitton of MP just to use convert, but not too often.

good mp management is an important skill - but that's similar to pre-update dragoons before saying they could keep up with super-careful play.

there's something wrong when a mediocre redmage can heal as well and maintain mp better (see: never needing to rest or have outside refreshing) than a very good whitemage. (who, in addition to needing to pay careful attention to when and how they rest; needs outside help for 'a good 30%')

The reference I was making was the 30% is the amount of "outside help" the WHM receives to be on "equal" padding to a RDM in MP conservation and longevity. I was saying I myself, proving this to myself and others as well, the skill I have in being good with MP on my WHM in merits and HNM is above par because I've been the only Healer in a merit party (for example) in a situation where most people on these boards would pick a RDM, and I still did the chain 400+ they got. I wouldnt expect a mediocre RDM or WHM perhaps to do the same thing. Having awesome Hmp gear accessable to all my mage jobs does play a big role in this as well.
(resting mp on my RDM instead of relying on vert because of my many years of being WHM, leads to the conclusion why I dont vert but in rare occasions on RDM.)

(friendly note: size 0 makes it not visible until you quote it, at least use size 20 or something^^)

my comment had nothing to do with your skill, or mine. or any one else's.

as good as you are at whitemage, you still feel -about- 30% behind your redmage in mp longevity, and you're not even using* convert (which says alot about your skill at conserving mp, but says alot more about how far apart the gap really is)

that's the point I'm trying to make.


*mostly

[Koyangi]

[quote=Amele]

Yeah, statistical math is awesome but just because you must use 280MP/minute to make Conserve MP worthwhile over Auto-Refresh on the paper doesn't mean it's the same in reality. Especially since activation rate is based on how many spells you cast and MP cost only indirectly effects efficiency. This is why I'm surprised people throw around that "you must cast 280 MP per minute" term ... I wanna bet if I cast two spells worth that MP value per minute I most likely won't reach Auto-Regen unless I get lucky.

actually, it's statistical math that says it *doesn't* matter (averaged out over time).

so I wouldn't take that bet if I were you, unless you specified a (relatively brief) interval.

My point was that WHM doesn't need to be "fixed" in regards to MP stamina unlike some people pointed out.

how about how every other job with mp (and two that don't even have mp) have better mp conservation/recovery traits/abilities than whitemage; and that several of these jobs are (generally speaking) considered better healers except in endgame alliance events, and sometimes even there?

WHM has good MP stamina if you are a good WHM, I don't gear for "max MP" by any long stretch either and can maintain very well, HNM or merits. A good 30% of this also comes from competent refreshers. On that note, in merits for example on RDM I sometimes forget I have convert because of my MP skills as WHM, I don't see my MP at a danger level every 10 minutes.

lol sometimes I'll purposly spend a shitton of MP just to use convert, but not too often.

good mp management is an important skill - but that's similar to pre-update dragoons before saying they could keep up with super-careful play.

there's something wrong when a mediocre redmage can heal as well and maintain mp better (see: never needing to rest or have outside refreshing) than a very good whitemage. (who, in addition to needing to pay careful attention to when and how they rest; needs outside help for 'a good 30%')

The reference I was making was the 30% is the amount of "outside help" the WHM receives to be on "equal" padding to a RDM in MP conservation and longevity. I was saying I myself, proving this to myself and others as well, the skill I have in being good with MP on my WHM in merits and HNM is above par because I've been the only Healer in a merit party (for example) in a situation where most people on these boards would pick a RDM, and I still did the chain 400+ they got. I wouldnt expect a mediocre RDM or WHM perhaps to do the same thing. Having awesome Hmp gear accessable to all my mage jobs does play a big role in this as well.
(resting mp on my RDM instead of relying on vert because of my many years of being WHM, leads to the conclusion why I dont vert but in rare occasions on RDM.)

(friendly note: size 0 makes it not visible until you quote it, at least use size 20 or something^^)

my comment had nothing to do with your skill, or mine. or any one else's.

as good as you are at whitemage, you still feel -about- 30% behind your redmage in mp longevity, and you're not even using* convert (which says alot about your skill at conserving mp, but says alot more about how far apart the gap really is)

that's the point I'm trying to make.


*mostly[/quote:0cf9a]was stating WHM compared to RDM in general, not mine specifically.

[Amele]

then why did you respond to my general comment with a specific one?

[Koyangi]

then why did you respond to my general comment with a specific one?

I was overall trying to prove a point that WHM isn't so lacking in MP longevity if 1 is good enough at it, but that in general you'll see RDM always the kingpin in it. I was saying I myself closed the disparity of just how much a RDM outdoes a WHM. Yes my RDM does better than my own WHM, but my WHM as I've noticed way too often myself, has outperformed many RDM in this same dept. Sorry for any confusion.

[Amele]

but with your playstyle you say you don't even use convert on redmage - so I don't see how it's really 'closing' the gap as it is simply that you're particularly good at conserving your own mp.

so you would disagree with my basic premise that whitemage is overshadowed in most situations by redmage and/or bluemage?

[Koyangi]

I never said I didnt use convert, I said I dont rely on it every 10 minute cycle.

[fantasticdan]

so you would disagree with my basic premise that whitemage is overshadowed in most situations by redmage and/or bluemage?

Where is all this talk of blu overshadowing whm as a healer coming from? >_>

It has more MP stamina, and slightly more mp efficient cures, but that's it. No cure V, magic fruit causes about as much enmity as cure IV, maybe more. No consistent way to haste other pt members, and even when diffusion timer is up, refueling is only 10% haste. Only has access to subbed barspells/pro/shell/raise. No devotion/refresh/etc. Magic fruit and wild carrot cannot target anyone outside of PT. Magic fruit used to have crazy range but this has been nerfed.

[Amele]

perhaps overstated then; I wasn't aware that the range on fruit had been cut down.

better mp and better efficiency cures mostly was where I was coming from - enough that blu can realistically main heal if need be, + still do some DD in the process.

which is more than whitemage can claim really (although as you made clearer to me; blu doesn't do as good a job alliance healing)