Questions about Detonator

[Kirbyprime]

I just got detonator, and while it's supposed to suck for RNG, I heard it was a pretty good WS for Cor and Martial Gun. So, just wondering, since it has a 30% agi modifier, is it better to stack on the AGI instead of STR or R.Atk? And also, I haven't used it in meritpo yet but is it accurate enough to swap out R.ACC gear or would I still need a bulk of it to land it as Cor?

[Eaglestrike]

Because of fSTR2 (which is ranged attacks) STR is effectively a 50% mod for WS's. Though I'm not sure if the weapon rank is for just the gun or the ammo too, if it's for both STR will pretty much always be better for WS.

Edit: And looking at the fTP mods Detonator will always be pretty weak compared to slug. Detonator fTP is 2.5/2.75/3.0 which is a really crappy increase. Slug Shot is 5.0 fTP, so basically a 100% Detonator will do 50% of Slugs damage and a 300% Detonator will be 60%.

[Maxxthepenguin]

Because of fSTR2 (which is ranged attacks) STR is effectively a 50% mod for WS's. Though I'm not sure if the weapon rank is for just the gun or the ammo too, if it's for both STR will pretty much always be better for WS.

Edit: And looking at the fTP mods Detonator will always be pretty weak compared to slug. Detonator fTP is 2.5/2.75/3.0 which is a really crappy increase. Slug Shot is 5.0 fTP, so basically a 100% Detonator will do 50% of Slugs damage and a 300% Detonator will be 60%.

Except since COR has less RAcc, it can't necessarily to afford to use the low acc Slug

[fantasticdan]

Edit: And looking at the fTP mods Detonator will always be pretty weak compared to slug. Detonator fTP is 2.5/2.75/3.0 which is a really crappy increase. Slug Shot is 5.0 fTP, so basically a 100% Detonator will do 50% of Slugs damage and a 300% Detonator will be 60%.

Aren't those the old detonator stats? Pretty sure it's been improved(as well as emp. arrow). From what I've read on this forum, 300% detonator now does a little bit more dmg than slugshot.

[Eaglestrike]

Edit: And looking at the fTP mods Detonator will always be pretty weak compared to slug. Detonator fTP is 2.5/2.75/3.0 which is a really crappy increase. Slug Shot is 5.0 fTP, so basically a 100% Detonator will do 50% of Slugs damage and a 300% Detonator will be 60%.

Aren't those the old detonator stats? Pretty sure it's been improved(as well as emp. arrow). From what I've read on this forum, 300% detonator now does a little bit more dmg than slugshot.

Yeah, I wasn't sure, if it's changed then disregard what I've said because I'd need to find the new ones.

And @Maxx, unless Slug would have half the accuracy of Detonator, based on Slug doing twice the damage of Detonator, it'd still be best to use Slug and occasionally miss, unless of course you're depending on your COR for one of those skillchain things in 2007.

[Kirbyprime]

I don't really know that much about calculations behind attacks, I very briefly tested both WS on 2 mobs in Xarcabard, results being:


Evil Eye
Slugshot: 1083 Detonator: 846
Melee Skeleton
Slugshot: 555 Detonator: 427

Anyways, thanks, I'll go try using meat next time I merit and see if I can pull off anything decent.

[Delekii]

After quite a bit of meriting on cor post update, Detonator tends to do comparatively better than slugshot over time due to its accuracy. I seldom miss Detonators even using full damage rather than any accuracy gear (AF head, chiv chain (lol no gorget), triumph*2, Blue Cotehardi, Crimson FG, Flame/Rajas, Amemet+1, Warwolf, Dusk Legs, Taru RSE2). On a WS by WS basis Slug does slightly better at 200%ish, but it is very, very close.

There was some indication that Detonator has a hidden r.atk effect (high innate attack) which also would greatly help cor, whos biggest problem is a lack of ranged attack.

Personally I pretty much always use Detonator in merits now, simply for its consistency. COR/WAR with a chaos roll or minuet and berserk I was doing 800-1.1k on Mamools at Nyzul with sushi, havent gone /war to birds yet.

[Eaglestrike]

After quite a bit of meriting on cor post update, Detonator tends to do comparatively better than slugshot over time due to its accuracy. I seldom miss Detonators even using full damage rather than any accuracy gear (AF head, chiv chain (lol no gorget), triumph*2, Blue Cotehardi, Crimson FG, Flame/Rajas, Amemet+1, Warwolf, Dusk Legs, Taru RSE2). On a WS by WS basis Slug does slightly better at 200%ish, but it is very, very close.

There was some indication that Detonator has a hidden r.atk effect (high innate attack) which also would greatly help cor, whos biggest problem is a lack of ranged attack.

Personally I pretty much always use Detonator in merits now, simply for its consistency. COR/WAR with a chaos roll or minuet and berserk I was doing 800-1.1k on Mamools at Nyzul with sushi, havent gone /war to birds yet.

Wait, COR's can actually do damage? Last merit party the COR was at 5% and he was slacking off on rolls to keep meleeing/shooting...

[Kirbyprime]

After quite a bit of meriting on cor post update, Detonator tends to do comparatively better than slugshot over time due to its accuracy. I seldom miss Detonators even using full damage rather than any accuracy gear (AF head, chiv chain (lol no gorget), triumph*2, Blue Cotehardi, Crimson FG, Flame/Rajas, Amemet+1, Warwolf, Dusk Legs, Taru RSE2). On a WS by WS basis Slug does slightly better at 200%ish, but it is very, very close.

There was some indication that Detonator has a hidden r.atk effect (high innate attack) which also would greatly help cor, whos biggest problem is a lack of ranged attack.

Personally I pretty much always use Detonator in merits now, simply for its consistency. COR/WAR with a chaos roll or minuet and berserk I was doing 800-1.1k on Mamools at Nyzul with sushi, havent gone /war to birds yet.

Wooo, just what I wanted to know. Just wondering, when you were your full damage gear, were you using meat as well or were you still using Sushi?

And how does /WAR work? I can't imagine the acc being that good. I've heard about it on the alla boards, but really, most of it is by Carrilei (Anyone who reads those boards would know/hate him) which frankly just makes me want to write it off right away.

[doofy]

Caps on both at 100tp (Martial, so 200tp), with a macro set that adds +30 STR (104 total, yay elvaan) / +10 AGI (74 total, lol elvaan) and steel bullets are ~2900 and ~1200 on flying mobs (~1500 at 300tp). With this same setup in meripo, including the appropriate WS gorget, slug acc is around 70% while det acc is near capped, I've missed maybe 10 since getting it at 75. Post patch detonator also has something about it that lets it reach its cap a lot sooner than slug, a lot sooner. So while you're looking at the raw dmg difference saying "What idiot would use detonator?" a 1200 detonator in meripo doesn't necessarily mean a slug would have done 2k+, parsed out over time its actually a lot better than slug for COR in realistic merit setups.

Of course you're going to get someone in here with the 2900 SS's on a Colibri, but unless you pt with people that focus entirely on your dmg output (2x minuets + Chaos Roll + Hunter's Roll while eating meat and /WAR) instead of the MUCH better xp/hr setup of 1 Minuet + 1 March + Chaos Roll + Corsair's Roll, detonator comes out quite a bit ahead for COR, it just doesn't miss and is very easy to consistantly put up over 1k. This is of course with BRD + COR, and since without a BRD you should be pulling anyway and damage is moot its pretty much the only relevant setup. Although, I will say that I have had one pt with BRD + DD COR + DD COR which was just hilarious and slug ended up being the better choice due to the extra 2 buffs. These are so damn rare though thats its not a realistic expectation, for now anyway, more people need to level COR that dont suck at it (retarded roll selections, wear one gearset for everything, "Steel Bullets are too expensive to shoot......stupid elitist...", etc.).

Personally, with capped dagger and a Merc. Kris I like knowing that I can push 1100-1400 dmg every time my TP goes green, and while Slugs with the same buff cycle will do 1400-1600 the accuracy is much worse. In avg pts it doesn't really matter which one you use, but in a pt where you're going for xp/hr, the mobs aren't alive for more than ~30s and you're there as a 'DD COR" trying to keep up, over the course of the entire pt slug will usually lose to det.

Wait, COR's can actually do damage? Last merit party the COR was at 5% and he was slacking off on rolls to keep meleeing/shooting...

CORs are still rare and its morons like this that make people not want to invite DD CORs (you're not the moron, the COR is) and most people haven't seen what the job can do with someone who knows what they're doing and isn't cheap. 5% is downright pathetic, I can do more than that while stage pulling with Light Shot as /NIN. I've got enough playtime nowadays for maybe one pt per week, and I usually get spammed as soon as I log, and I'm not even from this server. Played correctly, the job can be a ridiculous ToAU meripo DD, especially after you factor in the buffs.

-Vyzrael (Kujata)

[VZX]

Because of fSTR2 (which is ranged attacks) STR is effectively a 50% mod for WS's. Though I'm not sure if the weapon rank is for just the gun or the ammo too, if it's for both STR will pretty much always be better for WS.

Edit: And looking at the fTP mods Detonator will always be pretty weak compared to slug. Detonator fTP is 2.5/2.75/3.0 which is a really crappy increase. Slug Shot is 5.0 fTP, so basically a 100% Detonator will do 50% of Slugs damage and a 300% Detonator will be 60%.

fTP has been changed to 1.50/2.00/2.50 in exchange of ranged attack is doubled at the same time 2hander damage is patched

And how does /WAR work? I can't imagine the acc being that good.

Detonator/Empyreal Arrow have been known very accurate compared to the other ranged WS, even before the 2hander patch.

[Kylen]

I recently got Detonator and tried it in a merit party as COR. It was doing around 100 less damage than Slug Shot (900-1100 Detonators vs. 1000-1200 Slugs as sushi COR/RNG w/ unenhanced Chaos Roll, single Minuet, and a decent amount of STR gear). My Slug accuracy was already close to capped with that setup, though (Light Gorget, Martial Gun, etc.), so it was hard to compare with Detonator's accuracy. I'd imagine that Detonator would let a COR get away with subbing /WAR and less r.acc gear, but I kinda doubt that it would be enough to let us get away with meat in most places because our B- Joyeuse accuracy would just be too low, unless we were getting Madrigal or Hunter's Roll or completely ignored a Haste TP setup.

[Loren]

Detonator definitely has some sort of DEF-ignore property like Split Shot. On high defense mobs, it will meet or exceed Slug damage depending on TP, but Slug will always do more on trash mobs, or if you're receiving large attack buffs. In COR merit party, I'll generally use Slug when Sharpshot is in effect, and Detonator when not. If I see Tachi:Gekko, I can't resist hitting Detonator -> Fusion just to feel like I have a grenade launcher.

[Darus Grey]

For COR detonator is generally better because you can stack significantly more STR/RATK gear for WS than you can with Slug, and Eat Meat/subwar.

[Delekii]

Killheart (sorry if I spelt your name wrong) says that he can pull meat off on greater colibri, but I just find my MELEE accuracy too low let alone ws accuracy. I basically have 2 melee macros for cor meriting:

Ohat PCC +attack brutal
SH+1 Wargloves woodsman rajas
amemet+1 potent princes dusk

I dont have fort torque or suppa, so 256 skill
250+10+10+12+5+5+8+4+36(dex)=340, or right on 400 with sushi which is around capped accuracy for birds (slightly over lvl 81, slightly under 82). With haste and march, it makes for fast tp for a cor. If I am getting Madrigal, I switch to turban, dusk gloves, dusk trousers to keep close to capped accuracy.

But without sushi, even with madrigal I am quite a bit under capped accuracy, even in full acc gear.. 372 acc, which is 23 under capped acc on 81, and 32 under on 82 birds. There is more accuracy gear I could use, but not that much more.. I just dont find it worth it.

Wait, COR's can actually do damage? Last merit party the COR was at 5% and he was slacking off on rolls to keep meleeing/shooting...

Definately. I pulled off ~13% in a 27k/hr party on colibri a while back (not as /WAR). The biggest issues are getting the fucking rdm to haste you (IF YOUR COR IS MELEEING WITH JOYEUSE FUCKING HASTE PLEASE!@), and not missing out on bard songs too often (as much your responsibility as the bards, dont run away and evokers when he is singing to the melee).

[doofy]

(as much your responsibility as the bards, dont run away and evokers when he is singing to the melee).

++

There's a lot of stuff like this with the job that I'd assume was just common sense, but sadly doesn't seem to be the case, which accounts for the poor performance of a lot of the "DD CORs". I've got a mindset of being a career THF back near US launch and making it work pre-homam/dagger patch/etc. as well as a PUP, so I approach the job as a DD that can buff and making it work that way. A lot of people, mostly BRDs or mages who leveled COR, look at it the opposite way, so its understandable that the job has such a rift in playstyles.

The tp set I personally use, subbing WAR, has the following :

272 Dagger - 265 acc
65+5 Dex - 35 acc
Ohat (10) + PCC (10) + PBody (10) + W Gloves+1 (6) + Sniper +1 x2 (14) + Swift (3) + P Legs (4) = 57 acc, which can be bumped to 67 swapping belts and one earring.
7% haste (swift + dusk), 15% double attack and the M.Kris

357 acc / 7% haste / 15% Double Attack with a base attack of 353

Subbing WAR with this setup I'll eat sushi and swap dusk gloves or turban depending on the buff cycle, while subbing ranger I'll add all of the extra acc and eat meat. So you're looking at 367 + 22 subbing ranger / eating meat and being just below the acc cap (as well as losing 5 STR, about 14 attk, some haste and 10% double attack) or 357 subbing WAR / eating sushi and being at the cap plus the haste and double attack (as well as the +25% attack every 3/5 minutes). If you're in a pt where an acc buff is in the cycle you can also use meat with /WAR, although 9 times out of 10 in a BRD + COR setup with melees that aren't stupid or wearing AF, an acc song or roll usually isn't in the rotation. Until BRD + COR + COR parties become more common my best average output is usually /WAR eating sushi and spamming detonator with the standard set of Corsair's + Chaos + Minuet + March.

Aside from the marginal melee dmg on birds (and the irrelevant dmg on mamools/trolls) my parses are usually all WS dmg and its rare that I won't get a WS off on just about every mob outside of a roll cycle/fix, with M.Kris + haste + double attack + march the tp gain is just goofy. With fold, snake eye and capped winning streak, the roll interruptions are kept to a minimum, but they're always the first priority. On mamools this typically results in a 15-20% parse, but on birds it can go north of 25% considering that the weaponskill alone should be doing ~20%, and in certain pts can do over 40% (this is why the BRD + COR + COR pt was so damn hilarious, samurai/hunter's roll were added without sacrificing anything and we kept running out of birds).

TL;DR - On topic with the original post the best parse result I get with BRD + COR parties is /WAR + eating sushi + detonator, so its definitely worth using on COR. Skadi availability + More CORs popping up would definitely change this, but for whatever reason the job just isn't that popular.

-Vyzrael (Kujata)

[Kylen]

15% double attack and the M.Kris

Isn't double attack counter-productive with M.Kris?

[VZX]

Not in particular...

[fantasticdan]

15% double attack and the M.Kris

Isn't double attack counter-productive with M.Kris?

It's not counter-productive, but it's probably pointless and the a waste of a gear slot(the brutal earring).

[doofy]

Isn't double attack counter-productive with M.Kris?

Counter-productive, no, but the earring is a moot piece in my build (so is the double attack trait, but you can't turn it off). TP gain over time will end up being the same (reduced single strikes but reduced triple strikes, same thing as Ridill WARs), but not everyone has a Merc Kris to use and most DD CORs are Joytoy CORs so the earring/traits still help. A lot of dagger CORs use a Jambiya, I personally want to try an Adder Jambiya to see what the difference ends up being between my WS dmg loss / DoT gain / eva down help for the other melees. Unfortunately I think about 10 have been made across servers, and finding a Star Sapphire or someone selling a K. Jambiya is a pain in the ass especially when you're online less than 5 hours a week.

-Vyzrael (Kujata)