Paladins..

[wop]

LOL

Going home now, might reply to this later.

Again, LOL

[Therin]

Like I said, I already knew the answer was no. But just for the sake of my pretending I don't know how Regen is good for a Paladin and how it's good for a White Mage to cast it, please explain it to me.

It doesn't make me mad, but it makes me shake my head sadly at knowing that a WHM is wasting MP.

[Naramaska]

Like I said, I already knew the answer was no. But just for the sake of my pretending I don't know how Regen is good for a Paladin and how it's good for a White Mage to cast it, please explain it to me.

It doesn't make me mad, but it makes me shake my head sadly at knowing that a WHM is wasting MP.

More or less agreed here. I don't get pissed off when a WHM uses it on me, but i'd much rather be entirely self-sufficient with healing to maximize the amount of hate I can generate. Generally speaking, the only times i'll need it are during something like Dreadstorm (if it doesn't wear fast enough) or a few random Cure III's when a wyrm flies.

Otherwise it's mostly Cure V only for "oh shit" moments.

[Diamanti]

Flash just doesn't cut it the way my linkshell kills things (we strive for clean, speedy kills on things like Tiamat, Jorm, ToAU HNMs because when they die isn't really that important).

We also like clean speedy kills on those things. However, for wyrms, the flight time attacks and AoE give me plenty of curing to do in order to sit at the hate cap. I'll also cure some mages out of their latents if I feel as though I need the extra hate.

The Cure III macro is a good idea though since it ensures you always have the ability to do some healing regardless of the ally's HP situation.

On the subject of Kurayami: It takes ~4 seconds to cast a spell that isn't going to stick and provides minimal hate when compared to your other abilities.

On the regen subject: Never messed with my enmity. Overcuring will mess with it, but I have the pleasure of highly skilled WHMs backing me up, so that is rarely an issue.

[Judai]

Different strokes for different blokes. I love WHMs who use Regen, usually they are less likely to cure bomb me and let me cure myself.

[Grey Jorildyn]

If you are looking to create bursts of hate and you and all the members of your alliance are at full HP, get a cure swap.

What are you fighting? o.0 If it's anything worth an alliance I'd assume there'd never be more than 10-15 seconds of this on like... a Kirin superlongcasting. Kudos to your mages if they can keep everyone in white hp.

I'd like to ask you the same thing. Who the heck uses Paladin to straight-tank Kirin? On stuff like Khimaira, melee shouldn't really be taking damage if they're just running in to WS. If they melee continuously, then they're going to definitely take damage. In the same battle, mages certainly aren't taking damage if they're worth their weight at all.

I wanted to answer the original question from a blinktank point of view (since I'm either war/nin or nin/war 90% of the time)... even as a frail little helpless blinker, I like my WHM to use regen first, lol. It's hard to explain the right circumstances--for stuff more involved than general exp/merit, but for stuff not as involved as gods where <3 the spamcures.

You're aware that this topic is entitled 'Paladins...', yes?

Hmm, like in Nyzul I like this. I just about always have a pleasant meritted Regen3 on me, and so long as I'm kept above 50% hp I don't generally care.

l...ol?

In short, if even while blinking I like not always being at 100% HP, I can see no reason whatsoever why a PLD wouldn't love it.

And PLD/NIN spends a lot of time at 100% HP even without Regen of any kind. Stuff like Thunderstrike, Lava Spit, etc. will "correct" this, but again, for all the time in between, keeping your hate at the cap is what is crucial. Thus, cure swap, cure cheat, whatever you want to call it, is useful. As you spend most of your time as NIN/WAR (lul) and WAR/NIN (more tanking lulz), you rely on anything that gives you back HP. For Paladin, they have themselves to rely on as part of that equation. You cannot compare NIN/WAR or WAR/NIN tanking to PLD/NIN at all.

[Julian]

As a taru pld, I use my mp and curing as my main source of hate, the smallest cures and regens piss me off >

If you're not another PLD that's co-tanking with me, gtfo, unless I'm in the major red or about to get my ass kicked.

Regen also messes with berserker's torque I use it for the self-emo cutting, the TP is just a bonus.

[Woozie]

If you're not another PLD that's co-tanking with me, gtfo, unless I'm in the major red or about to get my ass kicked.

QFT. I HATE trigger-happy WHMs.

I've gone as far as cussing WHMs out on vent for cures, although I think I took it a little too far when it happened

[Aymee]

What are you fighting? o.0

I'd like to ask you the same thing. Who the heck uses Paladin to straight-tank Kirin?

My sky LS, and we're quite happy with our <10min Kirins. It works... Thank you for taking the time to laugh at us.

I wanted to answer the original question from a blinktank point of view (since I'm either war/nin or nin/war 90% of the time)...

You're aware that this topic is entitled 'Paladins...', yes?

You entirely missed the point... perhaps I should have grouped this with my ending statement, namely--

In short, if even while blinking I like not always being at 100% HP, I can see no reason whatsoever why a PLD wouldn't love it.

I was making the comparison that if it's not even necessarily bad for a blinker, it's no debate for a PLD.

Thus, cure swap, cure cheat, whatever you want to call it, is useful. As you spend most of your time as NIN/WAR (lul) and WAR/NIN (more tanking lulz), you rely on anything that gives you back HP. For Paladin, they have themselves to rely on as part of that equation. You cannot compare NIN/WAR or WAR/NIN tanking to PLD/NIN at all.

I made no comparison whatsoever in regards to their tanking abilities. I did nothing more than give my opinion on what I think of regen for recovery for me, and extended it to the whole. If anything, I'm admitting that PLD[/NIN] is going to be a better tank for most situations, since I started with the specific then the whole. If I started with the collective and singled out the individual, then you're fine to yell at me. Check your logic skills, please.

Oh, and nin/war or war/nin tanking? Perhaps you mistook me for someone with a full-blown endgame LS. Not everyone has the time or wants to spend the time there. I keep things at sky/sea and other misc. activities when I can, in which case there's no point in 'lul'ing at a blinktank. Actually, you're just acting ignorant in general.
*Points at the board name and underlines 'Newbie Player Advice'* You shouldn't assume everyone on this forum needs or wants strategy on the most extreme of situations, so I would appreciate it if you didn't take time out of your day to flame my and my LSes playstyle during situations that you aren't aware of.

[Grey Jorildyn]

What are you fighting? o.0 If it's anything worth an alliance I'd assume there'd never be more than 10-15 seconds of this on like... a Kirin superlongcasting. Kudos to your mages if they can keep everyone in white hp.

When you make comment like this, you are the one who is being ignorant. I explained my cases and points and you brought in some other tanking jobs as if you were going to make a point, then said this:

In short, if even while blinking I like not always being at 100% HP, I can see no reason whatsoever why a PLD wouldn't love it.

It makes me, and probably some others, believe you have no concept of what Paladins do in the end-game (whether it be sea, sky, or anything else really) and you're using NIN/WAR and WAR/NIN as a springboard for what you think is true. Being ignorant is ok, that is what this forum is for, but then don't try to extend your limited knowledge of the end game into crazy statements like this.

And I meant no offense to your linkshell. I don't care how much end game you do. But if Kirin is your only mob of comparison, that's pretty shallow, again no offense. As it is, it sounds like your linkshell uses a very unorthodox strategy. I apologize for not understanding how you haven't caught on to the new trends and more efficient ways of doing things. Even the bottom-of-the-barrel HNM shells on Titan can TP burn Kirin in less than 4 minutes.

edit: Wop where are you!?

[Marcicus]

Wow, this thread got more hits than I thought it would. >_> I guess I should have reworded the second question, or made a third question: "Have you ever lost hate because of Regen?"

[Aymee]

In short, if even while blinking I like not always being at 100% HP, I can see no reason whatsoever why a PLD wouldn't love it.

It makes me, and probably some others, believe you have no concept of what Paladins do in the end-game (whether it be sea, sky, or anything else really) and you're using NIN/WAR and WAR/NIN as a springboard for what you think is true. Being ignorant is ok, that is what this forum is for, but then don't try to extend your limited knowledge of the end game into crazy statements like this.

I seriously don't see why you think I'm ignorant because of my very openly agreeing with the Regen=Possibly bad idea. My saying that it's fine to be a little beat up while tanking is an affirmation that I agree PLDs should be allowed to let HP drop for cure. This is not difficult to understand. You're probably going to go through all my other posts and dig up something that looks contrary to that, or things that make my opinion sound different (and I'm sure there are some) but that was literally all I was attempting to say in my first post.

And I meant no offense to your linkshell. -- Even the bottom-of-the-barrel HNM shells on Titan can TP burn Kirin in less than 4 minutes.

That's a nice juicy contradiction... thank you for sorting us in the 'bottom-of-the-barrel' category. Apparently my server just completely sucks then, because I don't hear of people doing it much faster (besides the 72 second Kirin video made awhile back). I do apologize that my LS is comprised of mostly people new-to-sky, don't have kings experience or gear and that they're not kraken DRKs or ridill WARs to drop a kirin like an exp mob with their own personal BRD and COR for buffs. Normal people do sky too, remember.
You'll note I said I was in a sky/sea LS, not HNMLS... to me there's a rather large difference. Difference people different objectives different experience. I gave up on kings 2 years ago and couldn't care less about current strategy trends. I have opinions, but no point in going into them. I'm an assault guru above all else, and I openly admit there are topics I know nothing about. This being why I avoid the 'advanced discussion', though you do think I need to be demoted below this, even.

Just to make myself clear (again), I never once disagreed that regen wasn't bad for PLDs... Let's call it a draw, hm? Or you'd rather call in your friend first, I guess. Your first post was very well-written and I failed to extract the situations you were referring to (melee WS cycling NMs). You have no arguments from me. I was just curious.

Right, so regen can be bad if you're always topped off and can't cure yourself, but can be a good thing if it means a more skilled/intelligent WHM who will let you cure yourself first when dmg is taken. Let's all take a nap.

[Dakra]

And I meant no offense to your linkshell. -- Even the bottom-of-the-barrel HNM shells on Titan can TP burn Kirin in less than 4 minutes.

That's a nice juicy contradiction... thank you for sorting us in the 'bottom-of-the-barrel' category. Apparently my server just completely sucks then, because I don't hear of people doing it much faster (besides the 72 second Kirin video made awhile back). I do apologize that my LS is comprised of mostly people new-to-sky, don't have kings experience or gear and that they're not kraken DRKs or ridill WARs to drop a kirin like an exp mob with their own personal BRD and COR for buffs. Normal people do sky too, remember.

As a member of a different skygoing LS on the same server, I have to concur with the 'we must all suck then,' because we don't have 4-min kirins either. Nor do any of the other sky LS, as far as I am aware, and I don't think those shells capable of doing a Kirin that short (the reigning server HNMLSs) do Kirins anyways.

Edit: fixed quote tags.

[Marcicus]

Bump because this is an interesting thread, and if I ever decide to make my taru tank it'll give me an idea of my options.

Well, I just asked my LS leader (has Aegis) what he thinks about Regen. His thinking is that it doesn't hurt his emnity at all. As all paladins(or most), he cures other people to build more hate for himself. Sometimes there's instances where shadow timers wont be up at all and he'll get hit. Usually a simple cure IV will take care of it unless it's like a bad TP skill (Khim's Fulmination or Tourbillion or w/e does that 900+ damage comes to mind). He usually doesn't have problems getting hate back quickly and getting shadows back up. His style of tanking allows him to keep hate off melees & WHMs and keep it on himself (or bounce between a co-tank) and he has other methods to generate more hate when he's in the white with Ichi/Ni up.

meh, he can explain his thoughts better than I can if he decides to post here. I know what I said was kinda unclear and may not have made sense.

[Beckwin]

On stuff like Khimaira, melee shouldn't really be taking damage if they're just running in to WS.

Don't talk about stretching the limits of enmity or always having too much mp if all you're gonna do is pussyfoot tp-nazi kill things.

[Elesar]

I remember in one party when I was main healer on Summoner, every time I casted regen on the tank I would see the message... "Playersname's Regen effect wears off." a few seconds later. It was pretty funny but annoying at the same time.

[Grey Jorildyn]

On stuff like Khimaira, melee shouldn't really be taking damage if they're just running in to WS.

Don't talk about stretching the limits of enmity or always having too much mp if all you're gonna do is pussyfoot tp-nazi kill things.

I wouldn't say we do this very often. If you have the healers, let them melee melee. If you don't have the healing, it's pretty silly. There are always judgment calls to make. Being reckless isn't exactly an option when you're unprepared.

Anyway, having a full party of Samurais SA+Gekko every 2:30 still spikes hates for them a great deal, pulling it away from the tanks. As usual shit's situational. Playing smart is playing safe, and that's the way it ought to be. When we can play around (more often than not), we do it

[Shinso]

My med ring macro leave me with enough hp missing that if my plds need too, they can cast a cure 3 on me at anytime.

[Aymee]

Anyway, having a full party of Samurais SA+Gekko every 2:30 still spikes hates for them a great deal, pulling it away from the tanks.

...a few TA Gekko? Sure it's slightly lower dmg and will prolong the kill a little but hate would be helped.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Anyway, having a full party of Samurais SA+Gekko every 2:30 still spikes hates for them a great deal, pulling it away from the tanks.

...a few TA Gekko? Sure it's slightly lower dmg and will prolong the kill a little but hate would be helped.

Sure, but you don't need it. It's easy enough to cure swap your way back to the hate cap in a matter of seconds and preserve the damage output from the samurai.