Soboro Grips

[Amele]

it's a cute idea, but -2 enmity isn't going to do shit. I've put in -3 enmity from merits (mostly for whitemage) and I *still* pull hate. (I'm to the point where I'm tempted to take them out and play with sam as a tank since I'm not doing hnm really anymore, and -en isn't as necessary in limbus/salvage/assault/kitchen sink)

[Saraphym]

Perfect solution--
Since the average tank (50%++) is going to be completely helpless in holding hate vs a SAM with some misc support merits and decent gear throwing a soboro around, use the -enmity strap, lol.

please be fucking joking.

[Aymee]

Perfect solution--
Since the average tank (50%++) is going to be completely helpless in holding hate vs a SAM with some misc support merits and decent gear throwing a soboro around, use the -enmity strap, lol.

please be fucking joking.

I wouldn't actually ever do this. It was more a poke at the laziness of the average pickup PT tank and how I'm sick of eating dirt, rock and/or sand, depending on what zone I'm in >.> ...I fail at sarcasm if the 'lol' at the end wasn't enough.

[Amele]

sam can stand up just as well as monk or war can under attack,

if you're eating dirt because of bad tanks, learn to exp tank on sam, en- isn't the solution: damage- is.*shrugs*

[isladar]

sam can stand up just as well as monk or war can under attack,

if you're eating dirt because of bad tanks, learn to exp tank on sam, en- isn't the solution: damage- is.*shrugs*

That's what I've started to do on SAM -- tanking. On purpose. A voke + Gekko at the start of the fight means that our DRK can actually use his JA, and our RNG has started to come to static /WAR. An OHSHI-- macro palette will do wonders for when Third Eye craps out on you -- Arhat's +1 pieces and a jelly ring, or even AF body if you're in a bind for cash.

Don't hold back for a bad tank, be a better one.

[ringthree]

claymore was my choice.

sword strap fucks store tp.
mythril is the only one that's close to claymore imo. and it would come down to whether you had a need for more acc or not.

I don't have much experience with axe grip. (str+3) but might be a good choice if your primary concern is WS damage and not dot.


stun proc rate varies based on mob strength. seems to be between never and 15% depending on account.

Sword Strap can be great, it all depends on your Store TP set up. If you do not have a 6 hit set-up then Sword Strap is much better than Claymore Grip.

[ringthree]

Testing done with Ridill shows two things:

1. Number of hits per round is not evenly distributed. Ridill procs as a triple significantly less often than double or single.

2. Trait-based Double or Triple Attack proc first, and eliminate any possibility for the weapon to proc. This was tested with Warrior's Charge, and I believe with Assassin's Charge as well, and in both tests, Ridill NEVER proc'd anything differently than what the ability told it to.

Assuming these findings can be carried over to Soboro, which they most likely can, you see that not only does DA reduce your chance to get a triple proc, it also effectively lowers your average hits/round.

I actually posted an explanation of why people could get Ridill proc rate problems, while testing. Its on my blog too, about a month ago.

[Ferien]

Testing done with Ridill shows two things:

1. Number of hits per round is not evenly distributed. Ridill procs as a triple significantly less often than double or single.

2. Trait-based Double or Triple Attack proc first, and eliminate any possibility for the weapon to proc. This was tested with Warrior's Charge, and I believe with Assassin's Charge as well, and in both tests, Ridill NEVER proc'd anything differently than what the ability told it to.

Assuming these findings can be carried over to Soboro, which they most likely can, you see that not only does DA reduce your chance to get a triple proc, it also effectively lowers your average hits/round.

I actually posted an explanation of why people could get Ridill proc rate problems, while testing. Its on my blog too, about a month ago.

If I'm reading it correctly, you're saying that it was because rounds which kill the mob would skew it down. However, all of the tests I've read throw out all killing rounds because of that possibility, so that's not a valid argument.

[sb]

also stun grip would probably help more than -enmity grip at keeping you alive

Do stuns from grip contribute to hate generation?

Do any nin's out there know form the stun katana if it's stuns contributes to hate, and if so how they (grip/katana) relate to the hi hate lvls of various stun spells?

[yrpaine]

also stun grip would probably help more than -enmity grip at keeping you alive

Do stuns from grip contribute to hate generation?

Do any nin's out there know form the stun katana if it's stuns contributes to hate, and if so how they (grip/katana) relate to the hi hate lvls of various stun spells?

add effect from weapons doesn't give hate. see excal

[Amele]

claymore was my choice.

sword strap fucks store tp.
mythril is the only one that's close to claymore imo. and it would come down to whether you had a need for more acc or not.

I don't have much experience with axe grip. (str+3) but might be a good choice if your primary concern is WS damage and not dot.


stun proc rate varies based on mob strength. seems to be between never and 15% depending on account.

Sword Strap can be great, it all depends on your Store TP set up. If you do not have a 6 hit set-up then Sword Strap is much better than Claymore Grip.

the only way I'd suggest it is if you were someone who didn't/haven't merited store TP and has a rajas. (in which case, you've got 30 store TP between trait and rajas - you 29 for a 437 delay weapon) but if you have a rajas, i'd encourage you to do a six hit setup since it's so easy these days.

if you don't have a rajas, then you sacrifice your 7 hit setup for a 3% delay reduction (adding a hit is much worse than foregoing 3% speed) or you need to find store TP somewhere.

if you merit it, you should drop the strap and get six hits.
if you don't merit it, you're dropping 3% haste+misc other grip for 3% delay reduction + whatever stats you get from hachi hands or feet. and that's a dumb choice.

if you're not a samurai then the choices are obviously not as cut and dry.

[Phraust]

Ok... I been following on these multi-hit weapon threads in general, and people come to the following conclusions:

Multi-hit weapons are bias towards single and double hits.
Job Abilities/Traits trump Multi-Hits, including enhancements form gear.

so when people complain that DA native or from gear adversely affects Multi-Hit weapons are they forgetting it not only affects the triple proc rate, but affects the Single proc rate as well?

Assume that all attack rates were equal:

33% Single.
33% Double.
33% Triple.
(In theory it's 100% double hits when averaged out.)
66% are Multi-Hit rounds.

if you had 100 attack rounds,
33.33 hits would be singles.
33.33 would be doubles etc...
Total hits would be ~200 per 100 rounds.

Add 25% Double attack:
25% would be Triples.
50% would be Doubles.
25% would be Singles.
(Again in theory, 100% DA rate average.)
75% Multi-Hit rounds.
Total hits would be ~200 per 100 rounds.

Now some people say it triples about 20%, Doubles about 40% and singles about 40%.
(personally I never got around to testing it.)

so:
40% Singles.
40% Doubles.
20% Triples.
(1.8 average hits per attack round.)
60% are Multi-Hit rounds.
Total hits would be 180 hits per 100 rounds.

Add again 25% Double attack:

30% Singles.
55% Doubles.
15% Triples.
(1.85 average hits per attack round.)
70% are form Multi-hit rounds.
Total hits would be 185 hits per 100 rounds.

Am I missing something? It still seems viable, in general, to use DA gear etc with multi hit weapons.
I mean, if time is a factor, reducing the chances of a single seems like ti would be better in the long run, especially if the weapon is bias towards single hits, it would seem it always has a greater chance at reducing the singles at a minimal detriment to the triples.

Am I wrong? Can someone explain it better to me?

This also gets vastly more complicated whenyou factor in a "main hand" ( I know it's not part of this discussion, but it's valid)

[Amele]

you made an assumption that none of the tests provide corroborating evidence for (in fact, I think searain's specifically refuted it?) specifically: that the JT double overwrite all possible multiprocs with the same consistency.

I link you to the research I'm referring to (sea really needs to move this to the new wiki )

basically, single's decreased slightly but triples decreased much more, which points toward the likelihood that DA JT overwrites triples more than singles, etc.

[Retrieving/C.D/Searain]

Testing done with Ridill shows two things:

1. Number of hits per round is not evenly distributed. Ridill procs as a triple significantly less often than double or single.

2. Trait-based Double or Triple Attack proc first, and eliminate any possibility for the weapon to proc. This was tested with Warrior's Charge, and I believe with Assassin's Charge as well, and in both tests, Ridill NEVER proc'd anything differently than what the ability told it to.

Assuming these findings can be carried over to Soboro, which they most likely can, you see that not only does DA reduce your chance to get a triple proc, it also effectively lowers your average hits/round.

I actually posted an explanation of why people could get Ridill proc rate problems, while testing. Its on my blog too, about a month ago.

I was going to ask if you didn't mind quoting then I managed somehow to find the correct entry (nice blog btw!): your assumption is flawed to start with, when I did my tests on Ridill proc rate (the ones posted on the old wiki, I'll move them to the new one asap) I purposely removed the killing blows from my data because I was aware of the fact they would've substantially skewed the final results.

This incongruence was sorta easy to figure out since I knew beforehand that if I killed 50 mandragoras Lv1 outside Windurst (whether you believe it or not, I actually tested that) I would've gotten 50 single hits in a row, even when Warrior's Charge was active and that would've (also) definately confirmed something I was suspecting since the beginning: the mob's HP's, similarly to what happens with multi-hit weapon skills, constitute a limiting factor for multi-hit weapons proc rates (as in the weapon doesn't proc a double, triple or whateverx attack if the mob doesn't have enough HP left to withstand the damage inflicted).

It's a very easy concept, I hope my engrish didn't make it overly convoluted lol.

[VZX]

Anyone understand the graph?

I was asking Eagle to add labels to axis, but it seems he didn't check the page anymore

[Hakamaru]

Anyone understand the graph?

I was asking Eagle to add labels to axis, but it seems he didn't check the page anymore

It's a frequency-domain plot. I'd have to review my Fourier Transforms to pull any sense out of it though.

[Xrave]

Testing done with Ridill shows two things:

1. Number of hits per round is not evenly distributed. Ridill procs as a triple significantly less often than double or single.

You got that test? I'm hoping it was done with a job that doesn't have double attack since if you tested it on WAR you would of course have more double attacks than single or triple (the trait processing before the multi-hit).

[Phraust]

Testing done with Ridill shows two things:

1. Number of hits per round is not evenly distributed. Ridill procs as a triple significantly less often than double or single.

You got that test? I'm hoping it was done with a job that doesn't have double attack since if you tested it on WAR you would of course have more double attacks than single or triple (the trait processing before the multi-hit).

I got Thief, Drk, & War. Going to pile on the N.Set to slow me down and take some decent samples later on all three for tests. Might just go waste a few assault tags and hit a wall for a while, seems like the perfect test condition, can get time, attack rounds, and attacks per round all at once.

Edit: Got Sam too, I will check Soborro and see if it's Multi-Attack format matches Ridill's.

[Amele]

Testing done with Ridill shows two things:

1. Number of hits per round is not evenly distributed. Ridill procs as a triple significantly less often than double or single.

You got that test? I'm hoping it was done with a job that doesn't have double attack since if you tested it on WAR you would of course have more double attacks than single or triple (the trait processing before the multi-hit).

I linked that test.

[VZX]

Anyone understand the graph?

I was asking Eagle to add labels to axis, but it seems he didn't check the page anymore

It's a frequency-domain plot. I'd have to review my Fourier Transforms to pull any sense out of it though.

What kind of operation he did that he needed Fourier transform? noise cleaning?