New WeaponSkill Chart

[Spider-Dan]

I made a new version of the same file a while ago:

http://venomweb.150m.com/ffxi/wse3small.png
http://venomweb.150m.com/ffxi/wse3large.png

(warning: large is LARGE for printing)

I much prefer this style of chart to, say, Adennak's, for two reasons:

1) fits nicely on one 8.5x11 landscape page
2) I already know what elements make what skillchain (largely because of looking at that diagram). That's easy to memorize. What I don't know (or, what I know less well) is what possible elements each weapon-type has.

If I want to make a specific kind of SC (say, thunder), it is easier for me to look at the weapons we have available and determine whether the components are there, rather than looking at the SC I want to try to make, and then following all the arrows backwards to see what can start it.

Having a skillchain chart grouped by weapon is more useful than having one grouped by SC property, since it's easier to change which SC you're making than it is to change which weapons you have available to make it.

[Zhais]

This doesn't tell me how to make Cosmic Elucidation.

Obviously very well researched and had a lot of time and effort put into it though. I agree that you should take out the damage ratings and put in the stat mods for each WS.

I took much time to find out how you can can make that.
For players it NOT POSSIBLE.

Cosmic Elucidation is a lvl4 Chain (with 8 Elements) which "should" result out of a L3 Light --> Darkness or Darkness --> L3 Light.
But if you do that nothing happens.
Somewhere on youtube exists a video of someone .DAT Swapping a Cosmic Elucidation. Looks pretty nice

I very much doubt Zealot was serious about cosmic elucidation....

[Psymia]

I very much doubt Zealot was serious about cosmic elucidation....

I know
Just wanted to point out that i did some research in this direction



I changed the page a bit.
Now there are 3 versions online.
1: The old wse.pdf
2: The 2.1 branch on which i will work on. Trying to display the dmg part in a readable and correct way.
3: The 2.0 branch in which the DMG-part is left out. I think it's still usable just with less infos.

The 2.0 branch wont be developed any further except when i find stuff that's just wrong or i do some changes to the 2.1 branch which are easiely translatable to 2.0.

[Toxictaru]

It has lots of information, which is obviously good, but I think its a bit too big to really quickly reference.

I'm sure there are a few people around who've used Aden's chart before, and honestly, I think that one still stands out as the best. It might be a bit big itself, but I've shrunken it down and printed it out on to regular old printer paper and taped it near my desk... makes for really quick and easy reference. Hey look at me advertising another chart instead of dealing with the topic at hand.

Good information, but kinda big and more steps than you really need, unfortunately. That said, if you're working out an SC before you go to camp, I see nothing about this that makes it any better or worse than any of the others that are available. I just prefer quick resources

[Maksudyst]

To me, a chart like this is made, at risk of sounding odd, is to be studied. If you know the weapons that you deal with all the time, then you should know what elements each weaponskill has. Then when someone asks what kind of skillchain they can do in a certain setup, you already know, or at least have a good idea. At least that's how I do it. This is like going from a very limited knowledge of "well when you do this, this will happen," while this tool gives the understand of how and why. Then again, I guess most people don't really care. /nerd

[VZX]

To me, a chart like this is made, at risk of sounding odd, is to be studied.

/facepalm
What has science done

Study ? game?

[Maksudyst]

So you're telling me you don't go over strategies while not in-game? Isn't that studying? What's so different about going over weaponskill elements and how those elements come together to make a skillchain from looking over the strategy to kill something like Ultima if you're not so sure?

[VZX]

So you're telling me you don't go over strategies while not in-game? Isn't that studying? What's so different about going over weaponskill elements and how those elements come together to make a skillchain from looking over the strategy to kill something like Ultima if you're not so sure?

Look over != Studying

If I happen to remember what WS SC properties of some WS, that's not because I try to memorize it and rehearse it.

[Plow]

Am I the only one that still pictures the whole setup of skillchains the way it was drawn up in the prima guide?

[Raylinn]

When I opened the pdf, my first thought was holy crap what a mess.

After that I zoomed in a bit and headed to the center where I followed the arrows around for a few minutes, but didn't really get anywhere.

Other than said entertainment factor (arrows are fun) I don't think I'd ever use this. As people have been mentioning, most endgamers know the basic properties on how to make the required skillchains, and just want a quick A+B=C approach if they're missing one.

Also, lolskillchains

[Spider-Dan]

I'm sure there are a few people around who've used Aden's chart before, and honestly, I think that one still stands out as the best. It might be a bit big itself, but I've shrunken it down and printed it out on to regular old printer paper and taped it near my desk... makes for really quick and easy reference. Hey look at me advertising another chart instead of dealing with the topic at hand.

Again, I prefer the other style of chart (group skills by weapon, not by element) because I think it helps you understand how SCs work rather than encouraging large-scale rote memorization. When you understand (memorize) this:

http://venomweb.150m.com/ffxi/sc-diagram.jpg

...then it's immediately apparent which SCs an unknown (to you) WS can participate in. If that new rose WS from WoG has Induration and Impaction attributes, then you know that it can open Compression, Frag, Liquefaction, and Detonation, and can close Induration, Impaction, and Fusion. In contrast, a chart like Aden's doesn't really help you understand the how of SCs, but just try to memorize them all. And personally, I'd rather memorize a diagram of how SCs work in general than try to memorize every WS in the game.

[NynJa]

you don't need to memorize them all...just memorize the important ones...

do you really honestly need to know that Jin to Penta makes gravitation ?? No. Does it matter if Crescent Fang to Gekko makes Reverberation ?? Not really...

[Psymia]

I think it's all about personal preferences. Some people like it more with the Aden-approach and some people like more the WSE-approach.

I am on the WSE-side and i made this chart mainly for MYSELF.
If others can use it too that makes me happy. Nobody is anyone forcing to use this file.

Also i'm still not able to find a chart that includes besides the normal weapons BLU SMN and PUP.


The conclusion i'm taking out of the Feedback:
- The DMG-section did not come on too well. I will still try to make a Version that includes that
- Many people find it too big (most heard comment: hard to read / too tiny text). Most probably since they didnt get the:
INTENDED FOR PRINTOUT ON A3 NOT A4
- Many find it too complicated. It may look complicated on the first glimps but if you only take a minute to look at the diagramm in the middle it's pretty easy.


lg
Matthias

[Spider-Dan]

you don't need to memorize them all...just memorize the important ones...

do you really honestly need to know that Jin to Penta makes gravitation ?? No. Does it matter if Crescent Fang to Gekko makes Reverberation ?? Not really...

Then you don't really need a chart at all.

If you are only going to memorize the handful of WSes that can make Distortion, Fragmentation, Darkness, and Light, then really, any discussion of charts is beside the point. But if you are going to try to learn more about SCs (like, for example, "how can I make darkness without DAG/H2H/KTN"), then a chart is useful.

No one needs a chart to tell you that slug -> rampage is distortion, or that kasha -> shark bite is light. It's when you aren't using the cookie cutter combos that they come in handy, and it's a lot easier when you understand how the SCs work and can simply look at the available elements for a weapon, rather than trying to hunt-and-peck through a chart separated by element.

[Plow]

do you really honestly need to know that Jin to Penta makes gravitation ?? No.

Unless you wanna 1-shot some tonberry NM with a 3 part spiral hell darkness of course...

[cassiraa]

I've always preferred the Adennak chart http://adennak.com/blog/wordpress/?page_id=4

Maybe I'm attracted to shiny pictures and lights, but always found this easiest to read. Instead of saying "Tranfixion leads to" then finding the WS and saying "oh, this says detonation", you have all of them all organized already.

Your chart looks good, I'd add modifiers to it, because it's more of a list of items than a quick-reference, that would complete the list nicely.

[Genosync]

'cause I don't care about reading the other posts in this thread:

The object of a skillchain(renkei) chart initially was to make it incredibly easy to make a skillchain quickly, i.e. I could look at it for 5 seconds and see what WS I need to use to make a skillchain.

In short, if I didn't already know how every WS in the game worked with other weaponskills and the way element blocks work in weaponskills for chains, I wouldn't use your chart anyway. It's a visual disaster.

Too much information can make something bad. Way too much information can make it terrible.

edit: I wanna clarify this a bit. I'm not saying, throw away all your work, it's worthless, but you need to seperate things visually to make it easier to understand. You're going past the scope of what a renkei chart/graph should entail, so you need to plan accordingly. If I want a chart, I don't want a compilation of all these WS and skill levels and elements and crap.

[Crayfish]

Personally, I think it's a great chart. It's much more up-to-date than the one I have laying around which is in the same format pretty much. Also, I think it's better know the the elements of each weaponskill to figure out what two ws's to use to make a skillchain rather than just saying this ws and this ws make this sc... I think! When you know the elements of each ws, you can figure things out much faster than popping up a skillchain calculator. Then again, that's just me!

PS: Here's the one I was talking about!

Edit: I agree with Zealot about pulling the damage rating ("best", "worst", etc.), and put in primary and secondary modifiers of each ws.

I like this attachment one better. Easier on the eyes. Op is just like a wall of text. It blurred your eyes and when you find 1st ws and try to find the 2nd one you lost where the 1st ws is /exageration/

[Psymia]

2.1 beta 5 is out
I finally found the time to add the new PUP moves and fixed a few typos.

In the same i updated the 2.0 final version.

For all those that complained the chart contains too much infos to look something up fast.
I'm trying to rearrange the different weapon sections so i can leave out almost everything except the actual elements and will instead add the weaknesses of the mobs.