To All WHM's with Gullintani-Mjollnir Club

[Izzy]

To the OP:

In reference to the proposed "stat" increases to said club, while I agree to some extent that an increase in the weapons effectiveness for the job's role is valid, I have to dissagree based on the role of the WHM, and plethera of Alternatives available.

WHM is a selfless job. It's time spent 90% helping others. The club is the WHM's chance to kinda 'be their own thing'. TO break out of the role so to speak. That's what the weapon provides to the WHM. Not to mention, it's the Highest Base damage single handed weapon in the game... And has +20 attack, Added effect MP drain, and on top of that, it's weaponskill lowers the mob's defense. All are exceptionally valuable utilities on the club. Asking for anything more would be like asking for the Ame-no-Murakumo to have "Auto-TP Regen +5", or the Kikoku to have Emnity +10.

This is what I was talking about when I said that totally uninformed people were making accusations on something they shouldn't be commenting on.

TRUE:
Mjollnir has the highest base damage of any single handed weapon in the game.
Mjollnir has +20 attack.

FALSE:
Randgrith DOES NOT give the mob -DEF, it gives the mob -EVASION and gives the user +ACCURACY
Mjollnir DOES NOT have DRAIN MP added effect, it has RESTORE MP added effect. Two totally different things.

[Kriz]

Izzy, I fully support your whm melee crusade. 8)

Some people will never understand the clonkage.

I can only hope for more interesting gear for melee whms (mayhaps even aimed at that us, like the sea pirate clubs, or Reverend Mail). Extra points if it's gear that is the best for healing as well (woo Blessed).

I'm excited to see your parses at that stage. The final stage bringing a nice 20 attack but also a nice ~10% (340 to 308) delay reduction will be sweet.

But, I still love my Morgenstern spikes!

Also, to anyone wanting to see some serious WHM melee gear talk, check out this post viewtopic.php?f=31&t=15213

I feel like Izzy and myself (and some others too) had a pretty good chat about gear, and it's a fine starting point to make a wish list.

[Rena]

While I'd love to see more melee-oriented stuff, I wish they'd fix up what's wrong with it first instead... like the shitty, shitty damage ratings on clubs. It'd be nice to actually see an increase in DPS from dual wield that doesn't come from weapon stats without wasting god knows how many millions on a relic. At least SE has been moving in the right direction with ToAU, at this rate we might just see something decent at the end of the WotG era.

[Neosutra]

To the OP:

In reference to the proposed "stat" increases to said club, while I agree to some extent that an increase in the weapons effectiveness for the job's role is valid, I have to dissagree based on the role of the WHM, and plethera of Alternatives available.

WHM is a selfless job. It's time spent 90% helping others. The club is the WHM's chance to kinda 'be their own thing'. TO break out of the role so to speak. That's what the weapon provides to the WHM. Not to mention, it's the Highest Base damage single handed weapon in the game... And has +20 attack, Added effect MP drain, and on top of that, it's weaponskill lowers the mob's defense. All are exceptionally valuable utilities on the club. Asking for anything more would be like asking for the Ame-no-Murakumo to have "Auto-TP Regen +5", or the Kikoku to have Emnity +10.

This is what I was talking about when I said that totally uninformed people were making accusations on something they shouldn't be commenting on.

TRUE:
Mjollnir has the highest base damage of any single handed weapon in the game.
Mjollnir has +20 attack.

FALSE:
Randgrith DOES NOT give the mob -DEF, it gives the mob -EVASION and gives the user +ACCURACY
Mjollnir DOES NOT have DRAIN MP added effect, it has RESTORE MP added effect. Two totally different things.

To Phraust:

While it does have the highest base damage in the game, it also has a high delay, making the DPS not so high (by no means low, but not as significant). Clubs in general usually have a high delay so it is not really unexpected, but I think a good fix for the club would be a simple skill adjustment. The problem I see is that I just dont see SE making this adjustment. What would be possible and probable is a request for a bit more options in gear for TP/WS. While altering job mechanics isnt really SE's style, adding situational gear that may/maynot change the way a job plays is very much in the realm of reality.

That being said, what kinda of dream gear would the relic club whms want?

You have decent haste head/hands/legs/feet/belt. Body peices are kidna meh. Earrings are all jobs. Rings are all jobs.

So your basically lacking:
Good DD/Multipurpose body peice.
Good DD back peice.
Outstanding WS setup <-- this is the main thing I see as a short coming and with enough interest, is actually an area SE could add upon w/o hurting other mechanics.

One last thing: JAs. The same problem that pld faces in DD roles hurst Whm in DD roles. Pld can equip some of the best DD gear in the game and yet falls behind any decent melee due to lack of any decent DD JAs. Subbing nin you severely lack in attack and are basically reliant upon haste/tp spam of weak vorpals to keep up in damage.

An innovative JA for some of the more supportive class, that would allow them to maximize their melee potential in certain situations would allow alot of the jobs to move out of their cookie cutter roles and have a bit more options in soloing/xp/fun. Perhaps it just takes a bit more exploration with whats currently out there, perhaps it just takes alot of people talking to SE about it. Idk.

[Rena]

Don't have a relic, so I'm gonna speak for WHM meleeing in general here. <_<; The problems are the same for relic and non-relic, for the most part, however.

Gear isn't all that bad, really. It's not as good as real melee gear, but... well, WHM isn't a real melee. Melees however, won't be curing and hasting themselves and others anytime soon, so it works out. What I'd like to see though is being able to melee while still being able to make more than minor use of my spells without worrying about having to rest every two minutes. Auto refresh added to the Reverend Mail would be a nice start, as I hate full-timing other auto-refresh pieces just to recover any MP at all and lose out on the accuracy. Mjollnir comes with restore MP, but from all accounts I've heard, that's still very underwhelming.

Add a skill increase to that, and anybody with good~great gear should barely be able to eat meat on almost any VT stuff (excluding some mamool camps and such, obviously), while still maintaining fairly good accuracy. (I personally get around 70% on Greater Colibri... Theoretically, raising skill to A+ should make that 80%, and that's with full club merits, and... +62 accuracy in gear, I think.)

Oh yes, and the complaint I've had for, well forever... up the DPS of the worse clubs, seriously. Give my Seawolf cudgel a D50~51 at least. ._. Barely 9 DPS is still a lot worse than just about every other weapon type in the game. BLMs have higher DPS staves, and axes and polearms and other weapon types get weapons with higher DPS in the 50s. It's not asking for a lot.

Oh and no JAs or so... not that I'd mind, but it's just not WHM. Mayyyybe a self-cast spell for attack+, which is what WHM really lacks, and it would also compromize spellcasting by draining MP as a trade-off, but I still don't think it'd fit the job.

[Izzy]

Mjollnir DPS is 11.1
Mandeu is 13.2
Bravura is 12.17

the DPS isn't something I'd complain so much about. WHM has native club skill, which makes using a kraken club offhand completley devastating. I rarley ever miss with it. I parse at LEAST 10% higher offhanding kraken instead of perdu wand.

The +haste gear available to WHM is insane, thus increasing DPS even more than what you could get with a mandeau. The problem is that in my TP gear, i have 306 attack, and 322ish with WS gear. That's why WHM DPS is so horrible. (If you look at my parses, you'll see that my DPS is horrible, but my WS numbers nearly double the other melee. Except in that party with Bovein and Peachfuzz, the mobs died too fast for me to get TP so my WS totals were horrible.)

The only thing I'd like more of for WHM is club skill. It would add just a bit of attack, and just a bit more accuracy. I don't think SE should add any kind of attack bonuses to WHM. I'm a WHM, I'm not SUPPOSED to have good attack lol. The only thing that makes me competitive is the fact that I have more +haste than any other melee job plus the ability to utilize kraken club to it's full potential.

[Rena]

Mjollnir DPS isn't bad, it's just... everything else. Except perdu, Gullintani and KC (sort of). Perdu is 10.83. Next step is Brass Jadagna with 7.94. Huge, huge jump. Seawolf cudgel (which would be a pretty nice off-hand for relic too, if not for the horrible DPS, and would go a long way towards using meat) has 7.06. Massive difference.

[Khamsin]

Relics should help a job do their actual job

You can say that about any relic besides Horn and shield....

All relics should be as important for their respective jobs as horn and shield. Imagine Excalibur if the added effect contributed to enmity and combined the stats of hauteclaire and macahuitl, or Claustrum if it acted like an HQ+1 of all 8 elemental staves (+20% magic damage, -4 perpetuation, Elemental Skill +10, INT/MND+6).

You'd be surprised how craptacular AH wars are sometimes... I've parsed higher than AH wars as a COR...

Which raises the question, what is a relic wielding melee decked WHM doing with a shitty WAR in party?.

Kinda feels like they belong in the same party, don't you think?

[Izzy]

Relics should help a job do their actual job

You can say that about any relic besides Horn and shield....

All relics should be as important for their respective jobs as horn and shield. Imagine Excalibur if the added effect contributed to enmity and combined the stats of hauteclaire and macahuitl, or Claustrum if it acted like an HQ+1 of all 8 elemental staves (+20% magic damage, -4 perpetuation, Elemental Skill +10, INT/MND+6).

You'd be surprised how craptacular AH wars are sometimes... I've parsed higher than AH wars as a COR...

Which raises the question, what is a relic wielding melee decked WHM doing with a shitty WAR in party?.

Kinda feels like they belong in the same party, don't you think?

haha, this is true kinda. I really wanna actually FINISH the club to get the +accuracy bonus from the WS and the +20 attack and go parse against some REAL good DD again. I know I won't win most likely, but I'll definitely give them a decent run for their money.

*EDIT* I realized that my WS will end up helping the WAR's parse better with meat due to the -40 evasion on the mob I WS Q_Q. Oh well lol.

[Phraust]

Wow lol.

I was on your side, not ragging on Whm melee at all, I read and reread the post I made and saw nothing there that could be taken offensive and garner the responses given. I made a mistake in the Evasion Down, that was an oversite, and I was aware that it's MP Recovery, I was just short on words, I am aware you can aquire MP from mobs that don't have MP, thus making it not "Drain" per se. Please forgive the term I used, it was akin to saying "Kleanax" as apposed to "Facial Tissue".

The Delay on the club is "high", it still has an exceptionally decent DPS though, 11.10 DPS is nothing to scoff, I mean, you get a raw 11 base damage jump from the next highest club, that's kinda nice having an almost 25% increase in base damage going to relic from the next best alternative, what other relic has that kind of improvement? And on top of that, WHM have access to insane Haste gear. Oh, and let's not forget the random 3x damage procs.

My only point was, that for what it is, the club is perfect. From what I understand, you guys want it to include healing capacity as well as the melee capabilities. To me, I feel like those should be mutually exclusive tasks. I mean, wouldn't you rather be off and away from the frey while healing? And in full Accuracy/combat gear when you're not? Is the arguement pretty much soley for the purpose so you don't have to swap your main in order to change roles? Seems like a marginal sacrifice to have it both ways.

Mjollnir is a sick weapon, it's just downright awesome. Considering the big picture, if anything were to be added to it, it would upset the balance of the game. What I am reading is like a War asking for Cure V.

Since the OP is basically asking to petition SE for an unfair advantage to be given, it seemed like the "Real" problem could have been solve via other means, that weren't exclusive to Relic, that are the shortcomings to WHM as a whole, not the Relic. I.E. B+ Club, No Meritable Cure potency, etc... It would be easier/better to petition THOSE kinds of changes, or even a broad spectrum overhaul on all the relic weapons.

[Izzy]

The comment wasn't an attack at you personally, more of a frustration when people assume they know everything about the weapon when they've been misinformed and are using incorrect information to draw their conclusion.

In response to your latter comments, I agree. If they had designed the club to be a mage club...with no melee stats at all then I would be all for adding mage stats to it. But, it's not a mage weapon, it's clearly a melee weapon. You can't have your cake and eat it too, you gotta pick either melee stats, or mage stats.

[Leroy]

I know that Aegis and horn are amazingly effective at what they do, but why do people say all other relics are toys?

I'm currently after Apocalypse myself. Any weapon that lets you out-zerg a pair of KC DRKs is pretty damn nice. Both of Catastrophe's added effects are nice too: Haste+ and HP drain. Let's not forget its huge boost in the 2-handed update, making it deal higher Damage and with merits, you pretty much need 0 acc+ to hit anything at all with meat.

DRK/SAM with Apocalypse is probably the most destructive combo in the game.

[Neosutra]

I know that Aegis and horn are amazingly effective at what they do, but why do people say all other relics are toys?

I'm currently after Apocalypse myself. Any weapon that lets you out-zerg a pair of KC DRKs is pretty damn nice. Both of Catastrophe's added effects are nice too: Haste+ and HP drain. Let's not forget its huge boost in the 2-handed update, making it deal higher Damage and with merits, you pretty much need 0 acc+ to hit anything at all with meat.

DRK/SAM with Apocalypse is probably the most destructive combo in the game.

1. Even with hundred scythes setup you wont outparse a haste/hp build kraken zerg, though you will come close.

2. Other relics are considered toys because Aegis/Horn can literally change the way you can fight certain things, handle damage, support your alliance, and just deal with alot of situations that were previously tedious.

The other relics however, simply add more damage to the equation.

This is the general mindset when people talk of relic weapons.

Honestly though, and I love shield (about 20 silvers away /sigh), but having several good friends with finished relics I have to say they are alot more then toys. The damage output of their stage5 vs anyone else is just devestating and really shows in more then just HNMs. Salvage is one of the things I love most in the game, and our first 2 weapon cells go to Bravura and an Amano holder and it SIGNIFICANTLY increases our efficiency. In this case, horn/sheild dont really do shit for us. I think alot of people just think of the basic outlasting super hard HNMs and go Shield/Horn > all. What they dont realize is 90% of the game isnt comprised of these fights and the relic weapons really kick ass everywhere else (and dont hurt on the harder NMs either).

Seeing alot of my friends completing their weapons and witnessing the results really makes me wish (sometimes) that I had upgraded a more fun weapon (shield is fucking awesome, but its mostly a group benifit item). Who knows, my next goal may be Spharia/Excal/Amano, and I can join in the fun.

Back to the topic. Club is awesome, gl finishing. The only relic that NEEDS improvement is claustrum, melee smn ftw.

[Ashira]

the point of posting the parses wasnt for me to show you I was jesus christ with a club, it was to show you that jobs with mediocre gear really arent that hard to outparse, and I think i've showed that.

I like your coined phrase "jesus christ with a club"
Now if we add the following Dynamis Items for Mjollnir
-- Attestation of Sacrifice --
-- Heavenly Fragment --

Is it just coincidence?

We might be getting somewhere here

Are you saying we have to get Jesus to trade a Mjol to an ebon panel in order to make AV stop using Benediction?

No, it'd prevent him from using Reraise.

[Leroy]

I know that Aegis and horn are amazingly effective at what they do, but why do people say all other relics are toys?

I'm currently after Apocalypse myself. Any weapon that lets you out-zerg a pair of KC DRKs is pretty damn nice. Both of Catastrophe's added effects are nice too: Haste+ and HP drain. Let's not forget its huge boost in the 2-handed update, making it deal higher Damage and with merits, you pretty much need 0 acc+ to hit anything at all with meat.

DRK/SAM with Apocalypse is probably the most destructive combo in the game.

1. Even with hundred scythes setup you wont outparse a haste/hp build kraken zerg, though you will come close.

Lol. Apocalypse eats K.Club like it's nothing.

You can get more hp on an Apocalypse build since you have basicly 100 more acc than a KC DRK, and thus can focus more on HP. An Apocalypse DRK will average 2.5 swings per 4 KC swings in a Zerg, that's before you figure in Sword Strap and DA/TA procs. If you were just going by SE damage, then KC would be better, but the Huge ass Base DMG on Apocalypse and the Random Double Damage procs mean that there's more damage coming out of the actual weapon than with the KC.

Also, you can get up to Hundred Scythes speed every 4min 10sec, and it kicks ass even without SE and BW.

[levish]

Mjollnir DPS is 11.1
Mandeu is 13.2
Bravura is 12.17

the DPS isn't something I'd complain so much about. WHM has native club skill, which makes using a kraken club offhand completley devastating. I rarley ever miss with it. I parse at LEAST 10% higher offhanding kraken instead of perdu wand.

The +haste gear available to WHM is insane, thus increasing DPS even more than what you could get with a mandeau. The problem is that in my TP gear, i have 306 attack, and 322ish with WS gear. That's why WHM DPS is so horrible. (If you look at my parses, you'll see that my DPS is horrible, but my WS numbers nearly double the other melee. Except in that party with Bovein and Peachfuzz, the mobs died too fast for me to get TP so my WS totals were horrible.)

The only thing I'd like more of for WHM is club skill. It would add just a bit of attack, and just a bit more accuracy. I don't think SE should add any kind of attack bonuses to WHM. I'm a WHM, I'm not SUPPOSED to have good attack lol. The only thing that makes me competitive is the fact that I have more +haste than any other melee job plus the ability to utilize kraken club to it's full potential.

I think that while that K Club is contributing to the superb total WS damage, the extra damage is coming due to frequency not damage in and of itself which would be higher simply mainhanding the Relic and subbing war under the influence of zerk/warcry and tossing in the occasional DA proc + the extra stats from /war. The weak base damage of the K Club is probably killing your DOT similar to how thieves have given up on the Mercurial Kris for XP.

Give whm/war a try with a Viking Shield, zerk + warcry + double attack, still have blink/stoneskin for mitigation and try adding in some more acc at the expense of some haste (like o hat) and instead of parsing against the other melee's just try to parse for the same number of fights and compare the numbers there.

Apologies if you have tried this and it didn't work as well but it would give you at least the attack bonus you were seeking.

[Neosutra]

I know that Aegis and horn are amazingly effective at what they do, but why do people say all other relics are toys?

I'm currently after Apocalypse myself. Any weapon that lets you out-zerg a pair of KC DRKs is pretty damn nice. Both of Catastrophe's added effects are nice too: Haste+ and HP drain. Let's not forget its huge boost in the 2-handed update, making it deal higher Damage and with merits, you pretty much need 0 acc+ to hit anything at all with meat.

DRK/SAM with Apocalypse is probably the most destructive combo in the game.

1. Even with hundred scythes setup you wont outparse a haste/hp build kraken zerg, though you will come close.

Lol. Apocalypse eats K.Club like it's nothing.

You can get more hp on an Apocalypse build since you have basicly 100 more acc than a KC DRK, and thus can focus more on HP. An Apocalypse DRK will average 2.5 swings per 4 KC swings in a Zerg, that's before you figure in Sword Strap and DA/TA procs. If you were just going by SE damage, then KC would be better, but the Huge ass Base DMG on Apocalypse and the Random Double Damage procs mean that there's more damage coming out of the actual weapon than with the KC.

Also, you can get up to Hundred Scythes speed every 4min 10sec, and it kicks ass even without SE and BW.

I dont have the parses, but I still remember reading Kclub beating Apoc for zerg even with hundred scythes. Not to mention you cant just "hundred scythes" every 4 min 10 seconds because true hundred scythes requires soul voice marches (doesnt it?). If you are talking about just stacking march/haste/haste gear/hasso/desperate blows, then yes, you can access the "zerg potential" alot more, though w/o the SE/BW your damage will be about 50% of its potential. This discussion is about specific highest zerg potential, which with just SE/BW alone (you can still get alot of HP/haste with kclub and decent acc with feint) your Kclub will out damage your 100 scythes.

Then again, I think this is a "parse it and find out" kind of deal.

[Izzy]

Mjollnir DPS is 11.1
Mandeu is 13.2
Bravura is 12.17

the DPS isn't something I'd complain so much about. WHM has native club skill, which makes using a kraken club offhand completley devastating. I rarley ever miss with it. I parse at LEAST 10% higher offhanding kraken instead of perdu wand.

The +haste gear available to WHM is insane, thus increasing DPS even more than what you could get with a mandeau. The problem is that in my TP gear, i have 306 attack, and 322ish with WS gear. That's why WHM DPS is so horrible. (If you look at my parses, you'll see that my DPS is horrible, but my WS numbers nearly double the other melee. Except in that party with Bovein and Peachfuzz, the mobs died too fast for me to get TP so my WS totals were horrible.)

The only thing I'd like more of for WHM is club skill. It would add just a bit of attack, and just a bit more accuracy. I don't think SE should add any kind of attack bonuses to WHM. I'm a WHM, I'm not SUPPOSED to have good attack lol. The only thing that makes me competitive is the fact that I have more +haste than any other melee job plus the ability to utilize kraken club to it's full potential.

I think that while that K Club is contributing to the superb total WS damage, the extra damage is coming due to frequency not damage in and of itself which would be higher simply mainhanding the Relic and subbing war under the influence of zerk/warcry and tossing in the occasional DA proc + the extra stats from /war. The weak base damage of the K Club is probably killing your DOT similar to how thieves have given up on the Mercurial Kris for XP.

Give whm/war a try with a Viking Shield, zerk + warcry + double attack, still have blink/stoneskin for mitigation and try adding in some more acc at the expense of some haste (like o hat) and instead of parsing against the other melee's just try to parse for the same number of fights and compare the numbers there.

Apologies if you have tried this and it didn't work as well but it would give you at least the attack bonus you were seeking.

Yea, I have tried this. It really doesn't work. The /WAR really doesn't help damage that much as you barley have any attack to begin with.

[Rena]

I think that while that K Club is contributing to the superb total WS damage, the extra damage is coming due to frequency not damage in and of itself which would be higher simply mainhanding the Relic and subbing war under the influence of zerk/warcry and tossing in the occasional DA proc + the extra stats from /war. The weak base damage of the K Club is probably killing your DOT similar to how thieves have given up on the Mercurial Kris for XP.

KC damage isn't that bad actually... assuming it has an equal chance of hitting 1 to 8 hits, the DPS is somewhere up there just under relic. Dunno what it actually is like though, but it shouldn't be that bad.

Give whm/war a try with a Viking Shield, zerk + warcry + double attack, still have blink/stoneskin for mitigation and try adding in some more acc at the expense of some haste (like o hat) and instead of parsing against the other melee's just try to parse for the same number of fights and compare the numbers there.

I've toyed around with /WAR in besieged, quite fun with the temporary items and all, especially outdamaging everybody by 6 times as much on WS once. <_<; For the most part it's not all that impressive though, and I personally prefer /NIN... although, most of the times I get to melee is in smaller groups where utsusemi is nearly necessary. And dual wield animation > single wield for mithra.

[Veli]

The only WHM on my server that has that weapon has maats cap also. When I saw that i just thought what a idiot. But hey people get relic for the job they love most but i dont see the point of a maats cap owner to get one of the weakest relic weapon.