[GM]Graston>> A party is self-regulated

[Penthesilea]

The GM's reasoning was a total cop out, and to use the example about "borrowing" gear in a party, I knew someone who did just that. The agreement was stated as "i'll give you my leaping boots if you let me use your HQ water staff/light staff, Verm. Cloak, serket ring, astral earring, and phantom earring."

the kid "DC'd" halfway through the party, then got a 72 ban when he logged back in a few weeks later, so to say that parties are self regulated is bullshit. the kid gave me the items before the ban, and the player never got em back, though they magically could afford to replace about 25million worth of gear within two days.

[rithridan]

little off topic, but the SGM Melvus talked to the LGM for me when i had a problem. I had chose stealth earring by accident @ NPC in PJ, instead of boxer's mantle. LGM let me get 75 ABCs back so i could get my boxer's. How's that for bending the rules? 8)

>_> maybe I shouldve asked to speak to a sgm when I got melee toau ring instead of the mage toau ring by accident. yay for se not learning from their mistakes (hi2u dm/cop/an) and doing it right in one go

[Octavious]

I remember something similar to this happening to one of my friends, who let his friend borrow his K.Club (Yea, I Know I Saw it coming too). Low and behold he got it jacked and the GM argued since it was a agreed upon trade there's nothing he can do, or something like that.

IMO, really? It's like they KNOW you got screwed, they have the logs, why not just fix whats broken. --;

[Septimus]

People who shout for stuff like that probably do it because they have no friends, and people who have no friends are likely to be douchebags.

There is much truth in this statement.

[Toxictaru]

Not going to go through this whole thread, but on at least two occasions, I've called GMs about outright harassment. Once, I joined some noob linkshell for the hell of it, and we're talking. Some guy says some crap that my wife and I disagree with, it was just an opinion though, but he tried to force it on us, because he was right and we were wrong. Discussion continued, and he broke down and started calling us jews and fags, and various other things. I called a GM, GM said they weren't going to intervene because it was on a linkshell, and its up to the LS leader to decide how to handle it. (Which they did, by kicking me and my wife, and letting the other guy stay, we laughed hard at that). He was clear that LINKSHELL issues are not something GMs get involved in, but EVERYTHING ELSE IS GM TERRITORY.

So another day, I was camping LL... trying to get Rare/Ex and make some money off of the Rare. Some other guy shows up, level 30something, and decides, because he wants them too, and doesn't want ME to claim, he was going to round up all of the lizards in the area and train them around Gustaberg for an hour. Being that I was watching a movie at the time, I wasn't too broken up about him wasting my time, but I felt like calling a GM for the hell of it. Apparently, according to this GM, holding placeholders is perfectly OK. That was bothering me, so I decided to ask them if GMs actually give half a shit about the rules they claim to enforce. "OH GO READ THE POLICY, THAT OUTLINES WHAT WE DO AND WHAT WE ENFORCE". Uh, yeah. So what about when we find violations? FUCKING DO SOMETHING.

I basically called him a lazy fuck, and then went on to cite the previous example (with the linkshell). I had to ask at what point does abuse on a linkshell warrant GM intervention? I was once again told that linkshells are, and I quote, "private clubs" and no one forces us to wear them or whatnot. Basically I was told that if there is abuse, take it up with the leader, if nothing gets done, find a new linkshell. Fair enough. But he also said that ANY OTHER MEDIUM FOR CHATTING ON FFXI WARRANTS GM INTERVENTION. So like... two GMs have told me that the only time you can be absolved of your bad acts is when its on linkshell, which should mean that stuff said in party is stuff a GM should be getting involved in.

The sad thing is the argument GMs make just to be lazy. "Oh, if you don't like the way you're being treated on linkshell, leave it". Well, how long is it until you hear "if you don't like whats being said in /say or /shout, leave the zone" or "if you don't like whats being said in party, leave the party and find a new one". Like... How about you people fucking go ahead and start doing things, because your methods of self-regulation suck.

[Ganzar]

Why would you care so much if it was a noob linkshell anyways?

[Toxictaru]

Why would you care so much if it was a noob linkshell anyways?

I didn't care about the linkshell, I cared about the guy calling me a jew and a fag because I disagreed with his opinion. That and I had nothing to do while I was seeking party.

[Ganzar]

Linkshells are private chat. If the leader/sackholders are ok with members calling each other fags and jews then there is no problem.

[Septimus]

Since when? It is still harassment. Sounds like very lazy GMs.

[Ganzar]

Since when? It is still harassment. Sounds like very lazy GMs.

So they changed it so that I can join any linkshell's chat without getting a pearl? Cool.

I agree that it still is harassment, but it's up to the linkshell leader/sackholders to moderate it, not GMs.

[ringthree]

Since when? It is still harassment. Sounds like very lazy GMs.

So they changed it so that I can join any linkshell's chat without getting a pearl? Cool.

I agree that it still is harassment, but it's up to the linkshell leader/sackholders to moderate it, not GMs.

A GM can moderate if they want, its not like there is some "rule" that says that they can't do anything about LS chat.

Septimus is right, its just lazy GM's. Honestly, the way the GM's are run its much more likely that they will get in trouble for doing something positive rather than doing nothing at all.

[evilpaul]

I didn't think "jew" was an ethnic/religious slur, it's an actual ethnic/religious group afaik.

[Spekkio]

I didn't think "jew" was an ethnic/religious slur, it's an actual ethnic/religious group afaik.

it really boils down to context and tone. while it may be acceptable to say "there are many jews in the accounting business." usage of the word to describe someone as exemplifying the negative traits associated with individuals of that ethnic group, such as "fafnir never drops ridill, he's such a jew." would without question be considered offensive. this is similar to the way that the "N word" can be used in certain circumstances as a friendly salutation as well as a slur. considering that the individual being referenced in the prior post had no means of knowing if the poster was in fact jewish, i'd imagine it was intended as a slur, and thus it was inappropriate. in addition, this should have been handled by the GM, since this is a racial insult, no matter how misdirected, which is expressly forbid in 4.3(e) of the POL ToS. regardless of the presence of a party or not, the individual was using the game (the section makes no caveat for in what capacity) to distribute what is deemed by section 4.3 as "restricted material."

while we're on the topic of SE's horrible ToS, (anyone other than me geeky enough to actually read that?) 4.4 states:

SEI shall reserve the right in its sole discretion to revoke or suspend your PlayOnline user account and your ability to use PlayOnline at any time without prior notice to you, particularly but not limited to if SEI should determine (in its sole discretion) or should reasonably believe that you are responsible for, or have participated in, any of the following (collectively, "Prohibited Activities"):

so what's "reasonably believe?" am i to entrust SE to use good judgment on what's reasonable? historically, they've not been so swift. is it "reasonable" to believe an LS that claims 10 straight fafhoggs w/ 12 people out of 120 in DA are botting? just a thought.
sections f and g are of special interest as reprinted below:

Harassing, tormenting, intimidating, pestering, obstructing, taking advantage of, or any way hurting or damaging other Users or any third parties or their properties utilizing the PlayOnline Service;

i can think of a LOT of people who pester me on ffxi!

Committing, attempting to commit, or soliciting or attempting to solicit other to commit, any illegal, criminal, inappropriate, inconceivable, or any unwelcome acts;

committing an inconceivable act? attempting to solicit other to commit an inconceivable act? am i the only one who identifies the logical catch in there? i encourage more people to read it when you're painfully bored. many sections are dry, dull, and boring, but some sections are so horrifically written, as i've identified above, that many laughs can be had reading them.

[Zansho]

The problem is, a lot of the rules in the ToS are very ... vague, not really spelling out what is "zomgthisisbreakingtehrulz!" is really all about. I honestly think it really comes down to which GM you get on your call, more than anything else. Like anyone else in positions of power/influence, they're liable to have bad judgment calls, easily swayed by "meh, this is stupid, let's just tell him some bs and move on." Some days you'll get the super GM that will actually do something, but most likely you'll get "Hail adventurer! I'm sorry, but I can't do shit for you, but have a nice day!"

Somehow, the bad ones seem to outnumber the good gm's.

[Teia]

My personal experiences with GMs are few, thank goodness. But I've never, EVER seen a GM ever take action. Player once harassed me through /seacom and I was told there was nothing that could be done simply because it was an issue between players. Then a friend of mine and I were running to do the Brothers ENM and outta nowhere my friend gets jumped by demons near the drop point...which has 0 demons O_o;; I made the call for him because he was dead and I was too far away to raise. GM refuses to talk to me since I am a "3rd party" to the situation...nevermind he is in my party and is dead and unable to call GM... and then when he called about game mechanics glitch...he was told the game was running as it is supposed to be running, aka 2bad4u.

Basically, every response I've ever seen from a GM is "This game is self managed and doesn't glitch and you guys are old enough to deal with each other, so deal." In a sense is kinda true (minus the glitches), so every response will depend on how understanding and helpful your GM will be.

But ya, regurgitating what everyone else said, 50% up front
The ls chat stuff is I guess what most would probably call a "grey" area since most LSes have members that can freely joke around and mock each other with things that may be insulting to strangers. Lord knows how many kfc/watermelon/bike jokes have been made at each other in my ls. Context matters and it gets messy when a hypothetical situation such as "friends" start joking around and one suddenly gets all sour and calls GM... but yeah Toxictaru's situation was definitely something that could have had some sort of warning/intervention going on. Through linkshell or not, harassment is harassment Though I would have to call BS on that "holding placeholders is fine" line.

[WyldFyre]

The sad thing is the argument GMs make just to be lazy. "Oh, if you don't like the way you're being treated on linkshell, leave it". Well, how long is it until you hear "if you don't like whats being said in /say or /shout, leave the zone" or "if you don't like whats being said in party, leave the party and find a new one".

I reported players in Lower Jeuno for vulgar /shouts and I was told to blist them if I found the shouts offensive. Nevermind the fact that what they were doing was directly against the ToS, and I wasn't the only one that could see their obscene shouts.

When it comes to language in /linkshell or even /party chat, I'm all about having some good dirty fun ... but when it's going on in a public medium, GM's are just lazy bums if they're not willing to police up the trash that doesn't have the intellect to make statements without having obscene language as every other word.

[Judai]

kinda shocking ppl aren't used to GMs making up bullshit yet. Everytime I ever called a GM for holding NMs or anything they give a different story.

One time I had a JP call a GM on me because I was trying to solo a NM and had to zone. I gave ample warning omw to the zone, saw an exp party there and told them to gtfo. they ended up claiming and dying/running from my NM. I tried to zone and kill it again but it wasn't going well and their RDM kept spamming me and then claiming my NM. Eventually I gave up and left, saying sorry like 50x to the party.

JP guy kept insulting me and spamming and eventually was doing auto-trans about how happy he was that ppl flew planes in the world trade center. I said have a nice day and blisted him. Next day I got on in Jail after bazaaring all night and was told I was given a mark on my account for harrasment. You could still see my entire chat in the log and see where I said nothing wrong yet the JP cussed me out and talking about ppl dying and wish I died yet I got in trouble, lol. Was probably the stupidest shit I have ever been involved in and the GM was so dumb, he forgot to warp me out of Jail and I had to call a second GM to get out.

[Reizan]

My friend in game got jailed within 2 minutes of /shout'ing a song in the middle of Ru'lude... I think it's hilarious how differently each GM reacts to similar situations..

[Icywave]

That GM is lazy and unwilling to dig out more related rules to support your case, beck, I woulda called SGM and also reported to him the unhelpfulness of that GM as well.

[lost071]

What you should have done was asked for the money when you got to the site. Get to the ??? and ask for the money. If he doesn't pay you then tell him you're not helping him and leave.