Usukane Hizayoroi

[Almalexia]

They might not beat Byakko's for TP, but they sure do blow Shura Haidate out of the water for weapon skills on SAM. Considering the vast majority of a SAMs damage output comes from weapon skills, I think that alone is reason enough for SAM deserve it over a PUP (or at the very least, deserving equally as much).

If a MNK, SAM, NIN and PUP all crank out the AP for a remnants permit, show up to the Gilded Gateway on time, and lot/pass cells with great haste then they are all equally deserving of Usukane Hizayoroi.

[Veli]

I just wanted to see if they were useless for the jobs like he said..

[Almalexia]

Oh, goodness no. He's just an idiot.

[Amastacia]

For WS, Haidate always win for NIN (pretty much regardless of food/buffs, there's a tiny bit of wiggle room but not really enough to justify the inv-1 for Hizayaroi imo), and probably for MNK as well sheerly due to the extra Acc on Asuran.

Wouldn't mind a pair of Hizayaroi for when my SAM hits 75 though.

I was always under the impression that 5 str 10 attack would be better than 10 dex against mobs when you have 90%+ acc? Isn't the benefit from 1 STR outweigh 1 DEX in these scenarios because of how STR is calculated in WS over CRIT bonus? I know we're talking about 0.5 STR 1 attack compared to 1 DEX here but it really depends on how much STR, DEX & attack value is worth and it's really hard to test because it's so situational other than 30% STR 30% DEX mod we know about. However at nighttime you generally WS in Koga Tekko over Nin Tekko +1 in merit parties right?

The 15 DEX on Haidate outweighs the 5 STR/DEX on Hizayaroi combined for pure WS per-hit damage (ignoring pDIF), and while it's hard to empirically prove, the extra damage over the course of a long party from extra crits gleaned from that DEX probably outweighs the benefits of 10 Att, though it's close. They're probably just about even in the long run, and Haidate-onry involves not having an extra inv-1 when it's already impossible to tote all the gear you want to carry given a 60 inventory slot limitation.

As for the Koga Tekko bit, if Duke Berith would stop being a raging cunt and drop some fucking Chapeaus, I might have 'em, but as I'm not currently doing Dynamis with any sort of regularity, I imagine it'll be a while before I can free lot a pair. I tend to use Bandomusha Kote most of the time, and NIN. Tekko +1 in very high-Att situations. My personal preference is for consistency over e-peen, so I tend not to go hyperactive on STR/DEX gear unless my Att is high enough that it's doing more for me to bump stats than bump Att.

That being said, yes, I would WS in Koga over B. Kote or NIN+1 unless some combination of factors meant my Att was godawful low.

[Kittyn]

For WS, Haidate always win for NIN (pretty much regardless of food/buffs, there's a tiny bit of wiggle room but not really enough to justify the inv-1 for Hizayaroi imo), and probably for MNK as well sheerly due to the extra Acc on Asuran.

Wouldn't mind a pair of Hizayaroi for when my SAM hits 75 though.

I was always under the impression that 5 str 10 attack would be better than 10 dex against mobs when you have 90%+ acc? Isn't the benefit from 1 STR outweigh 1 DEX in these scenarios because of how STR is calculated in WS over CRIT bonus? I know we're talking about 0.5 STR 1 attack compared to 1 DEX here but it really depends on how much STR, DEX & attack value is worth and it's really hard to test because it's so situational other than 30% STR 30% DEX mod we know about. However at nighttime you generally WS in Koga Tekko over Nin Tekko +1 in merit parties right?

The 15 DEX on Haidate outweighs the 5 STR/DEX on Hizayaroi combined for pure WS per-hit damage (ignoring pDIF), and while it's hard to empirically prove, the extra damage over the course of a long party from extra crits gleaned from that DEX probably outweighs the benefits of 10 Att, though it's close. They're probably just about even in the long run, and Haidate-onry involves not having an extra inv-1 when it's already impossible to tote all the gear you want to carry given a 60 inventory slot limitation.

As for the Koga Tekko bit, if Duke Berith would stop being a raging cunt and drop some fucking Chapeaus, I might have 'em, but as I'm not currently doing Dynamis with any sort of regularity, I imagine it'll be a while before I can free lot a pair. I tend to use Bandomusha Kote most of the time, and NIN. Tekko +1 in very high-Att situations. My personal preference is for consistency over e-peen, so I tend not to go hyperactive on STR/DEX gear unless my Att is high enough that it's doing more for me to bump stats than bump Att.

That being said, yes, I would WS in Koga over B. Kote or NIN+1 unless some combination of factors meant my Att was godawful low.

See this is what I don’t understand.

Assuming it’s not a low or high attack situation,
You said you’d go Koga Tekko > Bandomusha Kote > Nin Tekko +1

Bando > Nin Tekko +1 =
22 attack > 6 DEX 6 STR
3.67 ATT > 1 DEX 1 STR.

Now let’s look at Usu Pants vs Kitty Pants 5 str 5 dex 10 attack vs 15 dex
Basically 5 str 10 attack vs 10 dex
Reduced to 1 STR 2 ATT vs 2 DEX

From your Koga Tekko > Nin Tekko+1 preference you feel 6 STR > 6 DEX means 1 STR> 1 DEX Now let’s assign STR= 1.1 DEX for the sake of argument.

Bando vs Nin Tekko +1
3.67 ATT > 1 DEX + 1 STR
3.67 ATT > 1 DEX + 1.1 DEX
3.67 ATT > 2.1 DEX
1.75 ATT > 1 DEX

Usu Pants vs Kitty Pants
1 STR 2 ATT vs 2 DEX
1.1 DEX 2 ATT vs 2 DEX
2 ATT vs 0.9 DEX
2.22 ATT vs 1 DEX

From your logic you should have concluded that Usu pants > Kitty pants.

See the problem now?

[RKenshin]

I've been using Usukane over Haidate. The acc from DEX on byakko's is worthless to me, so it's just about the 2% haste.

With the changes made to 2h weapons, reaching the point of diminishing returns in attack for 2h weapons is a lot more difficult than it used to be (needing like 1100+ attack?). In addition, STR actually makes a noticeable difference in your melee average now. It's why as SAM with ~+5x STR in melee gear (I don't even wear STR gear, that's just from the other gear I use), my melee average with an 88 damage weapon often surpasses the melee average of any other melee which often only has ~20-35 STR from gear. Including a Bravura WAR (103 base damage?).

All in all I think it's pretty close in the end. I just prefer to the choice of Usukane, for similiar reasons as to why you'd probably prefer Ace's Helm over Walmart Turban.

[BerenTebogo]

Whoever said not for NIN, too lazy to quote it, but you're forcing me to facepalm myself.

It's as good for NIN situationally as it is for any of the other jobs, it's not even argueable otherwise.

[aurik]

Now let’s assign STR= 1.1 DEX for the sake of argument.
...

See the problem now?

Yes, I see the problem quite clearly.

[Ashira]

Haidate pwn for Battlers and Itemers.

[Kittyn]

Now let’s assign STR= 1.1 DEX for the sake of argument.
...

See the problem now?

Yes, I see the problem quite clearly.

Sorry if you didn't catch it but I had to sign a value to STR in relation to DEX for everyone that uses Koga Tekko over Nin Tekko+1 at nighttime, I've already explained that we agree 6 STR > 6 DEX so 1.1 is like the minimal value I could assign. For everyone that's used Bandomusha Kote > NIN Tekko+1, I've just proved that the difference between Usu pants & Kitty pants in terms of STR, DEX & ATT stats is much greater so if you argue that Usu pants helps less than Kitty pants your logic is flawed.

[Amastacia]

Right, but you're assigning arbitrary numbers "for the sake of comparison" and overlooking the reason why 12 STR vs. 22 Att vs. 6 STR/DEX is in a different league than 5STR/DEX, 10 Att vs. 15 DEX.

For starters, I'd still use B. Kote at night when my Att was low. For seconds, no other piece of WS gear in the game that NIN can wear gives you an instant 3 fSTR like Koga Tekko do. The 15 DEX on Haidate affect WS damage purely through secondary mods, increased accuracy, and (slight) crit modification. The 12 STR on Koga Tekko affect fSTR, secondary mods, and Att.

My point here is that you're not comparing apples to apples.

p.s. To the person who said "shit's situational", I never denied that Hizayaroi could be better, merely that since you can't precisely account for the extra damage gained through increased Acc and crit rate, that the gap is going to be so close that I can't justify something that might be better in a very small subset of situations. I know that different pairs of gloves outperform others under different circumstances, I can prove it empirically. I can't say the same about pants, and I won't bog down my inventory based on unprovable assumptions.

[aurik]

Now let’s assign STR= 1.1 DEX for the sake of argument.
...

See the problem now?

Yes, I see the problem quite clearly.

Sorry if you didn't catch it but I had to sign a value to STR in relation to DEX

No you didn't. Watch:

Assume:
1) 10d > 5s+10a
2) 12s > 22a
3) 22a > 6s+6d

From 2:
s > 22/12a
s > 1.833a

From 1:
10d > 5s + 10a > 9.16a + 10a
10d > 19.16a
d > 1.916a

From 3:
22a > 6s+6d > 11a + 6d
11a > 6d
d < 11/6a
d < 1.833a <--- contradiction

Therefore at least one of the inequalities assumed at the beginning must be false.

[Kittyn]

lol sorry

[Kittyn]

bleh how do you delete? lol

[Kittyn]

[quote=Kittyn]

Now let’s assign STR= 1.1 DEX for the sake of argument.
...

See the problem now?

Yes, I see the problem quite clearly.

Sorry if you didn't catch it but I had to sign a value to STR in relation to DEX

No you didn't. Watch:

Assume:
1) 10d > 5s+10a
2) 12s > 22a
3) 22a > 6s+6d

From 2:
s > 22/12a
s > 1.833a

From 1:
10d > 5s + 10a > 9.16a + 10a
10d > 19.16a
d > 1.916a

From 3:
22a > 6s+6d > 11a + 6d
11a > 6d
d < 11/6a
d < 1.833a <--- contradiction

Therefore at least one of the inequalities assumed at the beginning must be false.

[/quote:nl454c54]

One of the inequalities at the beinning is false & it's this one:

1) 10d > 5s+10a

I'm actually arguing 5s+10a > 10d. Your math looks good though & think if you redo it, we can all agree that Usu Pants > Kitty Pants for WS if you agree with

2) 12s > 22a
3) 22a > 6s+6d

Right, but you're assigning arbitrary numbers "for the sake of comparison" and overlooking the reason why 12 STR vs. 22 Att vs. 6 STR/DEX is in a different league than 5STR/DEX, 10 Att vs. 15 DEX.

I'm assigning numbers that you gave me from your quotes that are true by mathematical assumption. And judging by Aurik's math after a minor correction, Usu pants > Kitty pants for WS.

[Zosi]

Please note that "If at first you don't succeed, try try again" does not apply to posting. There's an edit button, fucking use it.

[Ryko]

Please note that "If at first you don't succeed, try try again" does not apply to posting. There's an edit button, fucking use it.

It doesnt apply to fucking camping fafnir against me either, cut it the fuck out beckwin.

[Amastacia]

One of the inequalities at the beinning is false & it's this one:

1) 10d > 5s+10a

I'm actually arguing 5s+10a > 10d. Your math looks good though & think if you redo it, we can all agree that Usu Pants > Kitty Pants for WS if you agree with

2) 12s > 22a
3) 22a > 6s+6d

Just for the record 2 and 3 are *usually* true, but not under all conditions. For example, 3 is false once pDIF is high enough. 2 is false when fSTR is capped (or close to) and pDIF is not.

However, I'm not going to nitpick that as my response to your argument, just saying in general.

Right, but you're assigning arbitrary numbers "for the sake of comparison" and overlooking the reason why 12 STR vs. 22 Att vs. 6 STR/DEX is in a different league than 5STR/DEX, 10 Att vs. 15 DEX.

I'm assigning numbers that you gave me from your quotes that are true by mathematical assumption. And judging by Aurik's math after a minor correction, Usu pants > Kitty pants for WS.

The one thing I should have done a better job of clarifying is agreeing that, under the singular condition that the 5th point of STR on Hizayaroi works out such that you get a second point of fSTR as a result of equipping them, they can result in more per-hit damage. Also I should probably clarify that my reasoning is based on the generally accepted WS Damage = ((D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP * Crit)*pDIF formula.

That being said, you still haven't commented on the crit rate bit, which is something you really shouldn't be overlooking on a crit-based WS where testing (by Studio Gobli) indicates that said crits do double damage. It's hard to quantify exactly how much Haidate increase one's crit rate, however at least for myself, they put me either on the borderline of or well into the 110+ DEX range where crit rate begins to show a nice upswing depending on WS set and food.

Even if Haidate add only 1% improved chance to crit, that's a bit more than an extra 4.6 crits per 25 WSs (assuming /WAR and Brutal), or an extra 4.6*2*WD*pDIF per 25 WSs, which, even assuming relatively conservative values for fSTR and pDIF, blows away the extra damage per-hit of Hizayaroi (to the tune of about 200 vs about 75 damage with Senj/Perdu (or Unji), 6 fSTR (with Haidate on), 1.0 pDIF), which 10 Att can certainly not make up through increased pDIF. I'm making assumptions here on crit rate, but the sheer magnitude of difference gives me a leg to stand on, I think, even if I do end up being optimistic on the crit rate increase Haidate provide.

[Resin]

Please note that "If at first you don't succeed, try try again" does not apply to posting. There's an edit button, fucking use it.

It doesnt apply to fucking camping fafnir against me either, cut it the fuck out beckwin.

lol; dude, you just don't know when to stop. :D

[Cream Soda]

I'm next in line for haidate, and also 2/3 on usu legs. I'd use them both situationally. If in any situation I'm at acc cap (whether its fucking north camp mamools or some mission or something that i have to use sushi) I'd personally use the usu legs. If my acc isn't at cap, say colibri camp, I'd go with byakko's simply for the acc+5 (10 dex more for non 2hand = 5 acc). As for the 2% haste vs 5 str 10 attack, if acc wasn't the issule i'd take the 2nd choice w/o hesitation.