Player Opinions: ToAU

[BRP]

I don't understand why 1-hand weapon users can not use grips ;/. It's not like it would make them more powerful than 2-handers or dual wielders. And I think damage mitigation should not be restricted to /SAM and /NIN. Every job should have something so when you subjob it, you have two decent ways to drop damage.

[Arkanna]

for the people who say that tau missions are too easy: how many of the 50 assaults have you completed?

41/51, counting Nyzul. My static is tackling the final two ranks starting this coming week.

[Lindstrom]

Probably cuz for the most part they can use shields like Tatami, Viking, and that Mamool one, though yeah certain jobs still are stuck with nothing.

Gimme a Great Dagger.

[Amele]

You're right, the easiest solution was to simply make the 2h formula something like: (D + 2 * FSTR) * PDIF ; but that's still 'breaking' STR stats just as grossly as I implied, just in a more subtle way.

Again, you can give all of the examples of half-measures and broken fixes that you want, and it's meaningless. There are an uncountable number of forms that the damage formula could take, but they just took the path of least resistance and doubled the DEX gain on accuracy, because that's easier than re-balancing a formula.

since you don't seem to like any of my suggested fixes: what's "the best way" in your opinion?

hasso covered this already - it wasn't enough.

I bolded the part where you made a rebuttal to your own statement. Jesus, dude.

right, the point was that SE tried it already and rather than make it even sicker (10% is alot of haste already, more would've been called sick. hell people call hasso sick now) they twisted a different knob in the dot equation.

The TP gain rates are going to be different wherever accuracy is different, clearly, not to mention where Hasso changes things by being an outside-cap haste effect that doesn't reduce TP gain.

do you even understand how TP gain works as you vary delay? the ratio is nowhere near constant. (fast examples: 5.0 TP / 3 -> 1.67, 11.5 TP / 7.5 -> 1.53) it gets even more gross with dual wield: 360 delay 1h weapons are 9.3 TP per 6 seconds. a pair of dual wield weapons at 450 delay with 20% dw have a net delay of 360 but generate 10.0 TP per 6 seconds instead. ) net result - the slower weapon needs more accuracy to match the TP gain rate of the faster weapons.

and this doesn't even address that until very very recently, 1h weaponskills were better than 2h weaponskills; generally speaking.

Because a Byrnie is a step down from the Hauby or better that they ought to be wearing,

I disagree - accuracy isn't as important for 2h users anymore and Byrnie is a competitive piece with haub (look at the gear threads, several of the 'luminaries' of the 2h communities around here are using byrnie+1 or askar over haub+1 ) his particular choice is to prefer haub but that's his choice and I'm sure the rest of his set reflects that he has extra accuracy there. (like using str or attack instead of accuracy on his hands for instance)

and the game needed more gear that's not trash; yes. Byrnie was a joke before the update, now it's a competitive piece - that's another item for crafters to make and every single one of those we can get will help the economy (see all sorts of dex and attack gear here.)

Why do you keep bringing up the old ways that don't exist anymore? Is it impossible for you to envision a game where one-handers and two-handers have comparable accuracy, and overall DOT? Are you aware that there are more options than just "DRGs soloing and DRKs embarassing themsevles with axes" and "double every two-hander's DEX acc to fudge the disparity with the damage formula and swing speed"?

Impossible to envision? no, I've given you at least two different examples of how SE could've done it; both of which required messing with things alot more fundamental to the game than what they went with.

is it so hard for you to accept a game where the best piece of gear for a ninja and a samurai are different pieces?

and yeah, I'm aware of it; I was illustrating how absurd the old paradigm was. (apparently I did too good a job of it.)

It's about as elegant as multiplying a number by two. What you see as elegant is actually just the easiest change they could have made with the minimum amount of work. As a result, the simple answer gives a flawed result.

how is it flawed? seriously. the parses say it isn't flawed, the variety of gear that's being used says it's not flawed; the fact that we *all* get cheaper gear now (because demand is spread out) is not flawed.

so QQ more about the fact that they happen to have a higher number in one column to make the numbers in the column that actually matters even.

[Royal]

I don't mind the dex= acc change because SE looked at it and said 2h users are swinging much slower than a dual wielder and we want to make sure they are connecting more often. The thing that gets me is that these 2h changes broke sam, sam's were already really close to pre-patch dual wielders after hasso, overwhelm now there isn't a melee job that can touch sam, its the new war.

Why do wars HAVE to dominate and be the best? Whats so special about them?

[Lordender]

Why do wars HAVE to dominate and be the best? Whats so special about them?

it was an expression, didn't say war's had to dominate >.> anyways to the point:

2h changes put sam over the top they were already good enough after 6hit builds, hasso, seigan, re-vamed overwhelm and stacked up pretty well to pimp dual wielders pre 2h patch. Sam got the most out of the 2h changes without question, it just goes to show you that any given melee will become the new bandwagon job like rng then war(shortly after the nerf)when SE decides to buff a certain melee.

Melee are overpowered in phases right now its SAM at one time it was RNG then WAR.

[Retrieving/C.D/Searain]

I don't mind the dex= acc change because SE looked at it and said 2h users are swinging much slower than a dual wielder and we want to make sure they are connecting more often. The thing that gets me is that these 2h changes broke sam, sam's were already really close to pre-patch dual wielders after hasso, overwhelm now there isn't a melee job that can touch sam, its the new war.

Why do wars HAVE to dominate and be the best? Whats so special about them?

Unless you own a relic great katana (and even then, I'd like to see one in action before declaring defeat), sorry to break it down to you but WAR's still dominate, the gap may have been reduced but either Ridill/Joy War/Nin or Gaxe War/Sam kick the shit out of any other melee in terms of efficiency and sheer damage output respectively, at least in exp.

[Toth]

ToAU helped move a lot of the game's better content from the questionable (and hostile) HNM scene to smaller group activities that offers real challanges (ie. Salvage, Assaults with unique goals and events) and excellent gear options (Nyzul gear, salvage gear, assault sets). If WoTG can replicate that success (and negate the need to constantly camp the aery), then this upcoming expansion will be yet another shot in the arm for the game.

[Lordender]

Unless you own a relic great katana (and even then, I'd like to see one in action before declaring defeat), sorry to break it down to you but WAR's still dominate, the gap may have been reduced but either Ridill/Joy War/Nin or Gaxe War/Sam kick the shit out of any other melee in terms of efficiency and sheer damage output respectively, at least in exp.

Totally 100% disagree

Sam/war is broken after 2h changes. I don't know what kinda sam's you party with but there is two of them in my linkshell that both don't have relics and murder all our best equipped war's. My ls has the best NA war on our server in our LS and he was absolutely raped by our best equipped sams after 2h changes.

[LD]

.............heheheheheheh.

HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAA!!!


An accuracy discrepancy does not need to exist for 2Hs to be equal.
The best part about this is, as long as the first line is true, I can say whatever the fuck I want now. XD

I find it hilarious that even after Liselle gives a reasonable point, Amele brings up QQing as if it were relevant or appropriate. Like any backwater forum-goer who wants to discredit the person they're arguing against with the most base and ridiculously infantile means possible. You should be ashamed of yourself. We're intelligent people for God's sake, we don't need this bile in an argument.

There is never a single solution to a situation and the fact of the matter is the one we have now creates inequity and disharmony. I have yet to meet a 2H who had a real problem matching the power of a 1H after the update; in places like colibri where everyone has miths (or no miths), a 1H’s 2 hits will do roughly the same as a 2H’s one, so their strength is already equal. The gap arises when you realize the 1Hs are missing more often while the 2Hs rarely do. The damage produced can be wildly different based solely on the gap in accuracy. You say you need the acc bonus to be able to drive up your attack. Maybe, but you don’t need an inherent 20% hit rate advantage to match the power of a 1H.

I've seen this shit with my own eyes. You can not tell me you NEED this.

You simply want it.

You don’t care about things actually being equal, you just want things your way. While I’m aware the same could be said of me, no 1H has never said that 2Hs didn’t need a boost, and all I heard during those 2-3 weeks between the update and the fix was how 1Hs were bitching for no reason.

[Sekkite]

LD, you say that you see 2-handed users hit as hard as dual wield or H2H per attack round. My own experiences meriting on my monk do not support this statement. I typically hit for more damage per round (with /NIN sub mind you) and I swing more often.

Now, I'm sure there are very-well geared and merited 2H users that would out-do me, but the point is that they would need great gear and merits to do so. The fact that attainable gear can actually close the gap on either end (a dual wielder or monk does not need the best of the best gear in the game to stand a chance against AH 2-handers and vice versa) shows that the whole situation is much more balanced than it was before.

It should also be kept in mind that it is not possible to balance every DD job to deal similar damage with equivalent gear unless they homogenize the classes a great deal.

[LD]

There ws a Monk in the same PT who had better gear than I did and we was still hitting for roughly the same as the 2H every 2 hits. The 2H didn't have extrodinary gear, just what you would expect from someone who wasn't a complete nub. Depending on your perspective, the same could be said of the MNK.

How well geared they were is a moot point, the fact of the matter is that there's a gap in hit rate that can create gap in damage and it is unneed. Furthermore, you've never had the att bonus without the acc bonus, how can you be so sure you couldn't do the same damage without it?

Lets say it was taken away. You would be using the same food as 1H, only you have a 30-40 att bonus, plus however much STR you have, plus the large amounts of att heavy jobs already tend to have. There would be an equal hit rate and you'd still be able to get enough att to get something out of your new cap.

[Amele]

.............heheheheheheh.

HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAA!!!


An accuracy discrepancy does not need to exist for 2Hs to be equal.
The best part about this is, as long as the first line is true, I can say whatever the fuck I want now. XD

I find it hilarious that even after Liselle gives a reasonable point, Amele brings up QQing as if it were relevant or appropriate. Like any backwater forum-goer who wants to discredit the person they're arguing against with the most base and ridiculously infantile means possible. You should be ashamed of yourself. We're intelligent people for God's sake, we don't need this bile in an argument.

eh; you're right - liselle gave good points; I responded with valid points (I won't argue merit of my own points) response was that my points were meaningless, and flawed. I overreacted a little; it was a long day *shrugs*

I've seen this shit with my own eyes. You can not tell me you NEED this.

You simply want it.

You don’t care about things actually being equal, you just want things your way. While I’m aware the same could be said of me, no 1H has never said that 2Hs didn’t need a boost, and all I heard during those 2-3 weeks between the update and the fix was how 1Hs were bitching for no reason.

again; the parses show that things are pretty balanced now (At least all the ones that have been published to this forum) and most of the 2h users were agreeing that things were over the top after the first of the two patches... so I don't see why you can say 'want things your way' unless you mean that everyone wants things their way; in which case I agree, but that's also just the human condition.

sure maybe it's not as 'elegant' as other possible solutions; but it's simple and it works.

[FinalJustice]

IMO the only real 1 hander melee jobs are BLU, THF, MNK, PLD, BST, NIN. My whole thought on the matter is, why "should" a job subbing/maining the most Defensive main/sub in the game, and using weapons 26 levels lower then its highest skilled weapon be able to floor heavy 2 handers in total dmg? For such high def abilities, it should lose a lot of power. I never had a problem with the update because i think 2 handers SHOULD be able to do more dmg. Mnk hasnt suffered at all to me (maybe on HNM?). Its still one of the top DDs.

I feel only jobs that kinda suffered after this update are Blu, Thf, and Bst.

Everyone has different issues with the update it seems, so im not sure what the overall real problem is. Is it JUST the dex = acc now? Or are ppl still saying AH Sams can easily destroy Ridil wars? Why can't Wars switch to G Axes? Is it because there arent that many orgasmic GAxes? Or do ppl want to just stay special for having a ridil? But why should jobs not even using it highest skilled weapon be able to keep up with jobs using theirs? Why should jobs with high defensive power be at the top of the ladder? Should a War/nin be able to out dmg a job on birds, when that job gets a Dmg bonus on that particular mob? Lets see how much pwer Sam loses when it decides to sub /nin. Should War be excluded from that too?

[Amele]

sam loses quite a bit going over to /nin, but like monks currently (who /nin in exp for exclusively defensive traits too) it's not as big a loss in actuality as it is on paper - since you can't really go all out as mnk/war or sam/war in exp anyway in many setups.

(as sam/war I basically have seigan up full time and don't get much use out of berserk - it goes up for 20 seconds for 2ws then gets clicked off again when I run out of blinks)

as sam/nin you can use hasso 90% of the time and have extra survivability with additional shadow sources.

which is better is a little bit playstyle and a little bit how good your tank is; but it's situationally useful now.

[Liselle]

since you don't seem to like any of my suggested fixes: what's "the best way" in your opinion?

You didn't get my point, if you think that I have the answer. Even if I had access to the real formulas -- which I do not -- the fact that the nature of the way damage works is skewed towards one-handers makes a small fix an impossible job. At the very least you'd need to either have two different formulas entirely (one for fast weapons, and one for slower weapons), but even something like that will fail at the edges. What would be REALLY effective is to re-envision how damage works period, but the game has been out too long and SE is not willing or not able to put in the effort required to fix it.

There is no silver bullet for this problem. DEX = ACC is close enough for government work, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. I think that it was calculated to do as much to fix the problem as they could do with the minimum amount of work. There is basic parity in parses now, so they're just going to accept the ripples in the game mechanics everywhere else as the cost of doing business. That basically means that we're stuck with the underlying problems still, but now they have a nice shiny coat of polish, and the Gordian Knot of this game battle mechanics grows another layer.

right, the point was that SE tried it already and rather than make it even sicker (10% is alot of haste already, more would've been called sick. hell people call hasso sick now) they twisted a different knob in the dot equation.

You're simultanteously taking both sides of the argument, maybe you think that I wouldn't notice? I said that the disparity between 2h and 1h was centered around not only the damage formula, but DW and Martial Arts. You countered by saying that Hasso covered it already, and that it wasn't enough. I bolded that "wasn't enough" part, where you rebuted yourself. I know that they couldn't just increase the gain on Hasso, but you turned around and painted yourself in a corner by first bringing it up, and then by saying it was too much.

Hasso is actually a good example of my argument. It's not comparable to Dual Wield or MA, because SE decided for some reason to make it REAL HASTE that not only stacks with other haste, but is not capped like you'd expect it to be. DW/MA have delay reduction which is a fine but very important point. Hasso did not address the problem: only SAM and /SAM have access to it, and haste is not the same thing as delay reduction.

It was a nice change for SAMs (I like the concept of the overlapping durations, and "stance-like" feel of it, especially WRT Seigan), but now SE is seeing the fallout of it now that SAMs and 2H /SAMs can have high hit rates with only passing attention to accuracy.

So in short, you rebuted yourself but claiming it wasn't enough, when it was both not enough and too much at the same time. I feel more or less the same way about DEX = ACC, except that it actually WAS enough this time (mostly), so it's the unintended consequences that I am concerned about.

do you even understand how TP gain works as you vary delay? the ratio is nowhere near constant. (fast examples: 5.0 TP / 3 -> 1.67, 11.5 TP / 7.5 -> 1.53) it gets even more gross with dual wield: 360 delay 1h weapons are 9.3 TP per 6 seconds. a pair of dual wield weapons at 450 delay with 20% dw have a net delay of 360 but generate 10.0 TP per 6 seconds instead. ) net result - the slower weapon needs more accuracy to match the TP gain rate of the faster weapons.

I do, and I wasn't making any nitpicking comments about the mechanics of TP gain, I was pointing out that the inherent accuracy difference is going to cause a problem with TP gain in general. I'm already seeing it in lower-level parties where TP gain is nowhere near on parity without everyone agreeing in advance what they will wear and/or eat. This doesn't matter for the current TP burn mentality (just do whatever is best for you, screw everyone else), but if we ever get back into people cooperating to make skillchains etc, this accuracy gulf is going to be poison to it.

The fact that you say that slower weapons "need" more accuracy to keep up with fast ones is just goes to highlight the fact that you are fixated on the specifics of this two-handed change as they apply to your pet peeves, without really thinking of the consequences of it. For example, changing the TP gain formulas to properly account for swing speed (I bolded this for a reason, don't make any knee-jerk replies that you might regret) would fix it as well, without having to put your fingers in accuracy (which is a component of TP gain, but has its fingers in other pies as well, aka things that you'd have to rebalance as a result of changing accuracy).

and this doesn't even address that until very very recently, 1h weaponskills were better than 2h weaponskills; generally speaking.

Doesn't address it because it's not relevant. Again, this is about DEX = ACC, not about the relative power of twohanders. If their weaponskills are (were) broken, they can (have been) fixed, outside of ACC considerations.

I disagree - accuracy isn't as important for 2h users anymore and Byrnie is a competitive piece with haub

You completely ignored the important part of that statement, that this game is slowly being strangled to death with situational gear (hilarity ensues as DDs carry gear for fighting with other 2H DDs in all aspects, and also gear for reducing their accuracy and boosting damage so that they can SC with 1handers?). You also glossed over the other point, that Byrnie may be inferior to another piece of gear, and SE's DEX change makes you choose it over something that might be better. I think it's inefficient and counter-productive to add this additional complication, when it does not need to exist in the first place. You disagree, I know. I saw.

Impossible to envision? no, I've given you at least two different examples of how SE could've done it; both of which required messing with things alot more fundamental to the game than what they went with.

If you can see that it could happen, then you either don't see my point, or you are arguing for the sake of argument, picking nits for amusement. My position is not really all that complicated: doubling effect of DEX is inferior to a proper-rebalancing of 1H/2H because of unintended consequences, and we're worse for it because now SE will never fix the underlying problems now that they've applied this band-aid. The rest is all just details. If you at least understand THAT much, I don't care about everything else.

how is it flawed? seriously. the parses say it isn't flawed

Parses don't measure the things that I am talking about. Please accept your un-used strawman back, with my regrets.

QQ more

[Lahina]

To respond to the OP, and ignore the giant off-topic shitstorm that just blew in over the Atlantic.. I had one very large problem with ToAU, as both a Whm and a DD, that has thus far gone unmentioned.

A new status effect was added which a) cripples every single frontline job; b) cannot be dispelled by any means whatsoever; and c) is completely unaffected by all elemental resistances.

SE wants players to focus on skillchaining, bursting, and real play instead of 2-handed/nin DoT spamfests? Then let me {Erase} f*ing Amnesia. It'd be a nice start, anyway. That and giving the Merit-level mobs some actual Defense instead of irritating, uncounterable enfeebles like Amnesia and Snatch Morsel.

[Rocl]

To respond to the OP, and ignore the giant off-topic shitstorm that just blew in over the Atlantic.. I had one very large problem with ToAU, as both a Whm and a DD, that has thus far gone unmentioned.

A new status effect was added which a) cripples every single frontline job; b) cannot be dispelled by any means whatsoever; and c) is completely unaffected by all elemental resistances.

SE wants players to focus on skillchaining, bursting, and real play instead of 2-handed/nin DoT spamfests? Then let me {Erase} f*ing Amnesia. It'd be a nice start, anyway. That and giving the Merit-level mobs some actual Defense instead of irritating, uncounterable enfeebles like Amnesia and Snatch Morsel.

Amnesia is fire based.

[Lujei]

I know I'm a bit late, but I thought I'd comment anyway.

The Good:
Temporary items, they're both fun and useful. It's hard to remember Besieged without them, and they help Salvage a ton.

No reservations for "special" areas, namely Assaults and Salvage. It's so much better than having to change your plans at the last minute because some group went in just five minutes ahead of you.

The Bad:
Why the fuck did we never get access to the area beyond Whitegate except for in Cutscenes?