San Francisco opens up safe-injection room

[Elesirdur]

I guess harm reduction doesn't get much play in the U.S. media.

As covered by others, but not totally explained, is that these safe injection sites are also a locus for local support agencies to get drug users INTO rehab programs, social housing, job placement programs and the like

An easy 90% of drug addicts don't want to be drug users, mostly they lack the means and support to help them reduce their use and dependence on drugs.

Ensuring that people with HIV/AIDS, Hepatitis C, etc don't pass it on is always a good thing but in nations like Canada with socialized healthcare, there's also a dollar value attached to this kind of harm reduction. The fewer people that require specifically medical care services (as opposed to social outreach services like the safe injection sites), the more money that's "saved".

Treating drug users like criminals is, to me, just draconian and cruel treatment and it makes me more and more glad that I support and work with the Liberal Party of Canada when Steven Harper and his Republicans-in-disguise continue to push an American-style War on Drugs (and drug users) in Canada. The absolute worst thing you can do for someone who's addicted to drugs is throw them in jail. At least here in Canada, most police and justice organizations agree that hauling drug addicts off to prison for JUST doing drugs won't solve anything and will likely create significant problems for the corrections system.

PS: Just saw it as I was posting, but great post Thoronas - I was especially thinking of Vancouver's needle exchange program.

[Correction]

Didn't say we bust the junkies, just the people who sell junk. What's so unnecessarily expensive about that?

If you bust the people who sell it, what do you think will happen? Everyone will just give up? No. Others will sprout where you just cut them down in more numbers than ever, because then there is an opening for territory (which will also cause many more deaths/crimes). The best idea is to work on a rehab program. Cut the demand and the supply will cut itself.

So don't bust drug dealers for dealing drugs? Now that's just fucking giving up

[aurik]

Didn't say we bust the junkies, just the people who sell junk. What's so unnecessarily expensive about that?

If you bust the people who sell it, what do you think will happen? Everyone will just give up? No. Others will sprout where you just cut them down in more numbers than ever, because then there is an opening for territory (which will also cause many more deaths/crimes). The best idea is to work on a rehab program. Cut the demand and the supply will cut itself.

So don't bust drug dealers for dealing drugs? Now that's just fucking giving up

Nobody said don't bust drug dealers. But if you set up a place where you can help people, and then turn around and violate their trust, they'll stop accepting your help.

[Correction]

I'm thinking ahead of the implementation of a 'come get high here with our nurses and doctors' clinic. There has to be a step after this or you're not really helping the people of the fine city of San Francisco. There's nothing horrifyingly wrong with actively targeting drug dealers is all I've said. Keno's defeatist 'but more will come!' interjection was what prompted me going off on this particular tangent.

[Elesirdur]

Didn't say we bust the junkies, just the people who sell junk. What's so unnecessarily expensive about that?

If you bust the people who sell it, what do you think will happen? Everyone will just give up? No. Others will sprout where you just cut them down in more numbers than ever, because then there is an opening for territory (which will also cause many more deaths/crimes). The best idea is to work on a rehab program. Cut the demand and the supply will cut itself.

So don't bust drug dealers for dealing drugs? Now that's just fucking giving up

Nobody said don't bust drug dealers. But if you set up a place where you can help people, and then turn around and violate their trust, they'll stop accepting your help.

Precisely. Outreach centres can't have cops sitting at the entrance 24/7 or they will never be used. Likewise, the best places offer, as Thoronas said, non-judgemental care and options - this means that your local church doesn't run everything or that to get the care you have to accept Jesus into your life. For these places they have to be accessible and welcoming.

One other thing. I get the impression that some posters in this thread think that these needle exchanges are extravagant palaces of sin and decadence; the Bellagio they're not. They're usually in the worst parts of town and centres for human tragedy and suffering. Also, safe injection sites is not the state "condoning" drug use. They are examples when governments chose to act like adults, accept that drug use and addiction is a real problem that must be dealt with, and start treating drug users and addicts as real human beings. This is in stark contrast to the general American model of pretending like drug addicts don't exist, except when they're to be put in jail.

[evilbau]

Also, safe injection sites is not the state "condoning" drug use. They are examples when governments chose to act like adults, accept that drug use and addiction is a real problem that must be dealt with, and start treating drug users and addicts as real human beings. This is in stark contrast to the general American model of pretending like drug addicts don't exist, except when they're to be put in jail.

I agree, but I still think this is going too far. Not for humanitarian reasons, but because there will be a backlash (as evidenced by the opinions in this thread) which will do more harm than good. There are lots of conservative politicians who want to appear 'tough on crime' and 'against drugs' and they represent a lot of people who think even needle exchange is unpalatable. I was merely speaking to the realities of the political climate and not how this is a good thing in terms of actually helping solve the problem (which I think it is a right step).

[Elesirdur]

Also, safe injection sites is not the state "condoning" drug use. They are examples when governments chose to act like adults, accept that drug use and addiction is a real problem that must be dealt with, and start treating drug users and addicts as real human beings. This is in stark contrast to the general American model of pretending like drug addicts don't exist, except when they're to be put in jail.

I agree, but I still think this is going too far. Not for humanitarian reasons, but because there will be a backlash (as evidenced by the opinions in this thread) which will do more harm than good. There are lots of conservative politicians who want to appear 'tough on crime' and 'against drugs' and they represent a lot of people who think even needle exchange is unpalatable. I was merely speaking to the realities of the political climate and not how this is a good thing in terms of actually helping solve the problem (which I think it is a right step).

Trust me, I understand this very well through working with the Liberal party. It's the case in Canada as well, where even some centerist politicians and people don't like the idea of the safe injection sites. The sites in Canada have all been opened by City governments, which may derive funding from the provinces, but I can't think of a single incidence of the federal government sponsoring a site - certainly not under Harper's Conservatives.

It definitely takes a great deal of political, as well as financial, will to get this kind of program off the ground.

I also think that the public (in the broadest terms possible), through the 1980s innundation of anti-drug and drug-prevention programs, has the view that drug prevention is the more important function. This makes a lot of sense with the typical American (and Canadian too) concept that homeless and downtrodden people are to be scorned as they "failed" to seize the opportunities that supposedly everyone in these free countries has to be successful and rich. Therefore, if you are currently a drug addict, you "failed" to stop yourself from becoming on and not use drugs, therefore you are not worthy of help or aide. When you compound racial tensions onto this, especially with First Nations communities in Canada, the problems get even worse and it takes even more political will to get help to those people who need it.

[Plow]

Didn't say we bust the junkies, just the people who sell junk. What's so unnecessarily expensive about that?

If you bust the people who sell it, what do you think will happen? Everyone will just give up? No. Others will sprout where you just cut them down in more numbers than ever, because then there is an opening for territory (which will also cause many more deaths/crimes). The best idea is to work on a rehab program. Cut the demand and the supply will cut itself.

So don't bust drug dealers for dealing drugs? Now that's just fucking giving up

Apparently you missed the part where at some point, some part of the government realized that banning alcohol and drugs was fucking retarded and lifted the prohibition. Then throughout the years got put back in the exact same situation as before.


Did you ever consider that maybe they should give up? That perhaps telling people what they can and can't do to their own bodies by their own free will is fucking retarded?

BUT BUT MY FRIEND DOING HEROIN IS RUINING YOUR LIFE I KNOW!

[Correction]

Did you ever consider that maybe they should give up? That perhaps telling people what they can and can't do to their own bodies by their own free will is fucking retarded?

BUT BUT MY FRIEND DOING HEROIN IS RUINING YOUR LIFE I KNOW!

Yeah sure let's not bust the drugdealing gangbangers who start violent gunfights in the neighborhoods me and my family members live in. Because your friend needs his fucking fix.

Fuck you.

[Plow]

Did you ever consider that maybe they should give up? That perhaps telling people what they can and can't do to their own bodies by their own free will is fucking retarded?

BUT BUT MY FRIEND DOING HEROIN IS RUINING YOUR LIFE I KNOW!

Yeah sure let's not bust the drugdealing gangbangers who start violent gunfights in the neighborhoods me and my family members live in. Because your friend needs his fucking fix.

Fuck you.

Because there would be drugdealing gangbangers starting voilent gunfights (as opposed to non-violent gunfights...) if you could go to the grocery store and grab a bag of coke.

We're a bright one aren't we.

[aurik]

Did you ever consider that maybe they should give up? That perhaps telling people what they can and can't do to their own bodies by their own free will is fucking retarded?

BUT BUT MY FRIEND DOING HEROIN IS RUINING YOUR LIFE I KNOW!

Yeah sure let's not bust the drugdealing gangbangers who start violent gunfights in the neighborhoods me and my family members live in. Because your friend needs his fucking fix.

Fuck you.

Because non-drugdealing gangbangers starting violent gunfights is so much better.

[Correction]

Did you ever consider that maybe they should give up? That perhaps telling people what they can and can't do to their own bodies by their own free will is fucking retarded?

BUT BUT MY FRIEND DOING HEROIN IS RUINING YOUR LIFE I KNOW!

Yeah sure let's not bust the drugdealing gangbangers who start violent gunfights in the neighborhoods me and my family members live in. Because your friend needs his fucking fix.

Fuck you.

Because non-drugdealing gangbangers starting violent gunfights is so much better.

Gangbangers don't make money with bakesales, friend.

[aurik]

Did you ever consider that maybe they should give up? That perhaps telling people what they can and can't do to their own bodies by their own free will is fucking retarded?

BUT BUT MY FRIEND DOING HEROIN IS RUINING YOUR LIFE I KNOW!

Yeah sure let's not bust the drugdealing gangbangers who start violent gunfights in the neighborhoods me and my family members live in. Because your friend needs his fucking fix.

Fuck you.

Because non-drugdealing gangbangers starting violent gunfights is so much better.

Gangbangers don't make money with bakesales, friend.

Whoosh, way to miss the point.

[Plow]

Gangbangers don't make money with bakesales, friend.

You're right, they make it by robbing, fraud, attempting to help terrorists (ya rly), any possible way they can find to make money. Drugs just work because they're easy and illegal.


Also, the ones that are "starting violent gunfights" aren't in your fucking neighborhood. Normal people don't just start shooting when shit goes wrong. You more than likely have never and will never *KNOWINGLY* meet the kind of people that will actually end a life over money.



He's not wooshed aurik, he realizes he's wrong and is dodging. Hence the reply to misunderstanding yours but not mine which was clear and to the point.

[Correction]

Did you ever consider that maybe they should give up? That perhaps telling people what they can and can't do to their own bodies by their own free will is fucking retarded?

BUT BUT MY FRIEND DOING HEROIN IS RUINING YOUR LIFE I KNOW!

Yeah sure let's not bust the drugdealing gangbangers who start violent gunfights in the neighborhoods me and my family members live in. Because your friend needs his fucking fix.

Fuck you.

Because non-drugdealing gangbangers starting violent gunfights is so much better.

Gangbangers don't make money with bakesales, friend.

Whoosh, way to miss the point.

Your point is microscopic. Are you agreeing with Plow that drugdealers should slip off the enforcement radar? Or disagreeing with the notion that drug sales fuel gang violence whether or not junkies have a safe place to shoot up?

[Plow]

Your point is microscopic. Are you agreeing with Plow that drugdealers should slip off the enforcement radar? Or disagreeing with the notion that drug sales fuel gang violence whether or not junkies have a safe place to shoot up?

You cannot possibly be stupid enough to honestly believe I'm saying drugs should be kept illegal like they currently are but just don't mess with the drug dealers.


It is just not possible for a human to come to that utterly retarded of a conclusion.


p.s. if it sounds like I'm insulting you with this I'm not, I'm pointing out that you're absolutely twisting what I have directly stated to make me sound like some druggie shit that just wants his drugs

[Correction]

Your stance implied that substance abuse exists in some kind of selfish vacuum; one person doing drugs is their own business and doesn't affect John Q. Public. I countered that even outside his immediate circle of friends/colleagues the fact that a drugdealing criminal enables his habit is enough of a threat to target directly. In other words, I was provoked by:

Did you ever consider that maybe they should give up?

[Plow]

Your stance implied that substance abuse exists in some kind of selfish vacuum; one person doing drugs is their own business and doesn't affect John Q. Public. I countered that even outside his immediate circle of friends/colleagues the fact that a drugdealing criminal enables his habit is enough of a threat to target directly. In other words, I was provoked by:

Did you ever consider that maybe they should give up?

I know a whole lot of people that deal drugs and do absolutely nothing else criminal, and the only times they'd actually shoot someone is to defend their own lives.


And then I know people that would kill someone over $1000 worth of *anything* be it drugs or not.


You're completely disregarding the fact that drug laws are what put drugs under the 2nd group's control.



Take away the drug laws, and you take away the criminal drug dealers.



I've said it before and I'll say it again: I've never met anyone whose life was ruined by drugs (edit: well maybe alcohol and meth). But I can name more than a few whose lives were ruined by drug laws.


When was the last time you heard about the local tobacco house getting shot up?

[Correction]

I know a whole lot of people that deal drugs and do absolutely nothing else criminal, and the only times they'd actually shoot someone is to defend their own lives.


And then I know people that would kill someone over $1000 worth of *anything* be it drugs or not.


You're completely disregarding the fact that drug laws are what put drugs under the 2nd group's control.

Must be nice to know hippie dealers and not to have relatives in Mexico or near the border, then.

[Plow]

I know a whole lot of people that deal drugs and do absolutely nothing else criminal, and the only times they'd actually shoot someone is to defend their own lives.


And then I know people that would kill someone over $1000 worth of *anything* be it drugs or not.


You're completely disregarding the fact that drug laws are what put drugs under the 2nd group's control.

Must be nice to know hippie dealers and not to have relatives in Mexico or near the border, then.

Yeah, I suppose it is.


Now imagine if *everybody* that wanted to do drugs could get them from safe places with no violence or criminal activity involved.