Samurai SJ

[Resin]

I don't know. Maybe I need to merit with people who deal more damage, but the last merit party I was in, I found the best way to prevent being an MP sponge was to leave hasso/seigan off full-time and just have blinks on all the time using a haste build (ace's, swift, dusk hands, byakko's, usukane feet). ...And I STILL took hate all the time doing that.

[VZX]

Just as an example, what we do to save time at Hammerblow now: http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/1507/ffxi3457vn3.jpg

What was your total physical damage reduction, VIT, and def?

IIRC for that particular screen shot it was -50% damage taken, around 28x defense, 69+5 VIT, and level 1 Phalanx II. I've done the same with the absense of phalanx II and/or falling short of -50% damage taken by a good amount as well, it works fine even if I need an occaisonal cure bomb as long as no one attacks anything other than the same mob at once.

D Ring/Jelly Ring/Arhat +1/and Staff?

[Amele]

given the opportunity, I always go sam/war.

but it's important to remember (esp. for soboro, which really is a different playstyle now and not just sam, but faster) that the benefits you get from /war on paper may not be the benefits you get from it in practice.

in the ideal world where you can use all the abilities, of course sam/war is better Damage (it's /war after all)

with soboro, in reality, you're often trading an underutilized berserk and 'blank' double attack for additional defense, which lets you swap hasso for seigan (recovering 10 lost attack, gaining several points of strength, and picking up a 'free' 10% haste.)

so I don't see anything wrong with trading unused potential for extra defense.

[Wolfknight]

kinda off topic but curious, ruke for sam/war tanking on chariots to macro earth staff in if third eye falls or leave GKT on?

[Yutuyu]

I didn't mean keeping Hasso up "full time", cancelling it obviously during casts to help your ichi recast is the best way to go, but you can do that and still manage to keep it up almost nonstop.

It doesn't really matter how good you are at playing SAM and using Seigan, unless you pop it and put up third eye before a weapon skill every time, you're going to get hit. But with SAM/NIN you won't, because you will have shadows up to block that. When they go down, start casting Ni, or you can pop out third eye, it's not really hard.

This argument is dumb anyway. Anyone can tell that /nin makes you take a lot less damage regardless of the situation.

The question is, what's more important to you?

War: 10% DA, 10 attack, couple points of STR, Berserk which I can rarely use without leeching even more MP
NIN: Taking a lot less damage

And I don't think it's a matter of having shitty party members either. The fact of the matter is, SAM does most of its damage in spike amonts, this makes you tank. The more damage is pushed together the more hate you're going to have when that happens. SAM is a hate monger. And unless you party with other SAMs or the very most high-end of other jobs to help manage things, you're gonna have hate a lot, you're gonna get hit a lot, and you're gonna need heals a lot. Which simply does not work well when you're 1 of 4 melees in a party with a brd/whm and an rdm/whm. I have a decent damage mitigation gear swap in setup too.

Believe it or not, you doing everything you can to up the damage on your parse is NOT the objective of an XP party.

/nin is obviously NOT the best subjob all of the time. I don't aim to use it every chance I get. Whenever I can get away with it, of course I /war. But there are times when you SHOULD do it, regardless of what people are saying.

[RKenshin]

kinda off topic but curious, ruke for sam/war tanking on chariots to macro earth staff in if third eye falls or leave GKT on?

I leave GK on unless we're holding it. Most of the time there isn't any trouble/problems so we'll just kill from start to finish in one swoop, taking like 5-10m or so depending on the chariot and our #s/setup. Occasionally if things get rough we'll hold, and I pop defender with a staff.

I'm actually debating between the use of tacos vs attack food on chariots just because damage is still good even without the attack, and the defense makes a rather considerbale difference in damage taken. MP usually isn't a problem but in situations with lower numbers/as less ideal setup where MP could be a problem I'm leaning towards tacos.

D Ring/Jelly Ring/Arhat +1/and Staff?

Yes, I was only missing the hand piece.


EDIT:

It doesn't really matter how good you are at playing SAM and using Seigan, unless you pop it and put up third eye before a weapon skill every time, you're going to get hit. But with SAM/NIN you won't, because you will have shadows up to block that. When they go down, start casting Ni, or you can pop out third eye, it's not really hard.

And why would you not have Third Eye up before you WS just about every time?

It's pretty silly to assume that a Seigan tanking SAM/WAR isn't capable of keeping Third Eye up a majority of the time. If you're doing otherwise then the problem lies in the player, not in the utility of the abilities. And, you sure has hell could make the same case for SAM/NIN, where as I don't care who you are you're never keeping 1-3 shadows ready at all possible times if you're doing a considerable amount of tanking. Without mentioning the fact most /NIN melees tend to be lazy with shadows, just using Ni and not keeping shadows fresh.

/NIN isn't this magical place of never taking any damage either, you'd be kidding yourself if you really think it is. But this is what you seem to be advocating.

War: 10% DA, 10 attack, couple points of STR, Berserk which I can rarely use without leeching even more MP
NIN: Taking a lot less damage

lol wow, no offense but... I sincerely hope you realize how biased/ignorant that statement is. I'm not even going to touch it further.

One thing I will say is, Utsesumi is not the best defense ability in the game for all situations. Tanking chariots, MNK mobs, NIN mobs, Hundred Fists, large groups of mobs, etc, you're much better off prioritizing Seigan over Utsesumi.

And unless you party with other SAMs or the very most high-end of other jobs to help manage things, you're gonna have hate a lot, you're gonna get hit a lot, and you're gonna need heals a lot. Which simply does not work well when you're 1 of 4 melees in a party with a brd/whm and an rdm/whm.

Simply doesn't work? That's funny, because all my PTs on SAM have been just that (and often worse). And. MP. Has. Never. Been. A. Problem. (do I need to put this in a big neon sign?)

You can't even argue against that. I'm an aggressive SAM/WAR that has Amanomurakumo and just about the best gear possible; I'm arguably doing as much tanking as SAM potentially can do in any situation. And, on top of it, I'm not picky about who I PT with. I probably join more pickup PTs than 'elitist PTs', so more often than not I'm in a situation where I'm tanking just from swinging at the mob once. I can't stress enough how much tanking I'm doing here in a normal situation.

But you know what? Despite all that, and despite the fact most of the PTs are pickup PTs with poor healing, it's never an MP problem. Even in the worst pickup PT setups.

Is it just you assume going SAM/WAR means your IQ automatically drops 20 points? And that you can't resist the temptation to Hasso? Because seriously, if you want to make SAM/WAR work you can make it work, for arguably any situation. You just keep Seigan on full time, use good timing with Third Eye, and if you can you get some defense gear. That's it, there's no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Argue all you want but I have over a year of proof showing you it works, and I'm sure other SAMs can attest to the same thing. So you can't try to say it doesn't work.

Believe it or not, you doing everything you can to up the damage on your parse is NOT the objective of an XP party.

No, but getting the fastest exp possible is. You balance damage output with damage taken for the best results. And you can't possibly prove otherwise. Mages are in this game for a reason you know, they have a job they can do to effect the speed of exp too.

If your idea of a perfect PT is a PT where people take the smallest amounts of damage possible, your max exp/hour will never come close to a PT where the PT is balanced. You're not using every PT member to thier full potential if everyone is sacrificing towards the least amounts of damage taken; SE introduced the cure spell for a reason. Every job balancing their best potentials where MP is kept perfectly in sync with the MP recovery rate/Convet timer, all the while doing the max damage possible while maintaining that MP demand, results in the highest exp. PTs that know how to balance this are how people achieve 30k+/h.

[Yutuyu]

/NIN isn't this magical place of never taking any damage either, you'd be kidding yourself if you really think it is. But this is what you seem to be advocating.

War: 10% DA, 10 attack, couple points of STR, Berserk which I can rarely use without leeching even more MP
NIN: Taking a lot less damage

lol wow, no offense but... I sincerely hope you realize how biased/ignorant that statement is. I'm not even going to touch it further.

If all you can do is state that the fact that I am wrong there is "self-evident" when it isn't in any way shape or form, then there's nothing more to discuss. If you'd like to rationally explain to me what's wrong with that assertion fine.

As for the rest of your post, it's a matter of subjectivity. On another post you've claimed to have xp'd very little in the past 6 months (which is when we started pulling even more hate), so are you sure you really have a clue what you're talking about?

EDIT: In the end I do agree with your final paragraph where you say we need to balance between the two, obviously, but I disagree with your ultimate conclusion. Cancelling Hasso before every WS is going result in lost numbers, and you are going to take more damage with /war. The damage difference between /nin and /war really is not as great as you're making it out to be, but the defensive difference is huge.

[Resin]

@ RKenshin: It's a valid argument. When in merit, do you actually swap in an earth staff?

[Zilong]

The amount of fail in this thread is remarkable.

Why the fuck do you bother with SAM/NIN when utilizing Seigan on SAM/WAR accomplish the exact same thing as far as damage mitigation is concerned (or better...hi2u Rushing ____,Vorpal Blade, Fang Rush, Pecking Flurry) hell, if you worry so fucking much about taking damage, go fulltime seigan. Fulltiming seigan as a SAM/WAR still net a fuckton more damage than a SAM/NIN fulltiming hasso.

[Talisien]

Fulltiming seigan as a SAM/WAR still net a fuckton more damage than a SAM/NIN fulltiming hasso.

This is proven...how?

Berserk v. 10% Haste is really a comparison?? 10 str + 10 attack v. 10 attack + x str (/war v. /nin) is obviously a win for Hasso. Warcry is lol, and 10% DA is awesome for some GKTs, but a complete neutral for Soboro (still arguably the best GKT for xp besides Relic).

I still don\'t think /nin is somehow a magic formula for taking no damage, but it\'s a helluva lot easier to precast Ni every fight than recast 3e every 30 seconds.

[Yutuyu]

The amount of fail in this thread is remarkable.

Why the fuck do you bother with SAM/NIN when utilizing Seigan on SAM/WAR accomplish the exact same thing as far as damage mitigation is concerned (or better...hi2u Rushing ____,Vorpal Blade, Fang Rush, Pecking Flurry) hell, if you worry so fucking much about taking damage, go fulltime seigan. Fulltiming seigan as a SAM/WAR still net a fuckton more damage than a SAM/NIN fulltiming hasso.

I see you haven't had that Tourette's thing checked out yet, might wanna do that.

Also just because you have Utsusemi doesn't magically mean you can't use Seigan, or vice versa. Believe it or not the two abilities can be used in concert, they are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

EDIT: For spelling diseases correctly.

[Zilong]

Fulltiming seigan as a SAM/WAR still net a fuckton more damage than a SAM/NIN fulltiming hasso.

This is proven...how?

Berserk v. 10% Haste is really a comparison?? 10 str + 10 attack v. 10 attack + x str (/war v. /nin) is obviously a win for Hasso. Warcry is lol, and 10% DA is awesome for some GKTs, but a complete neutral for Soboro (still arguably the best GKT for xp besides Relic).

I still don\'t think /nin is somehow a magic formula for taking no damage, but it\'s a helluva lot easier to precast Ni every fight than recast 3e every 30 seconds.

Don't know about your SAM, but my SAM gets 110ish ATK from berserk without food, and that number rises waaaay higher with the existence food, BRD and COR. I know haste is good and all, but I somehow doubt that it's 11+:1 ATK to Haste ratio good.

And even if you are using soboro, you'd still DA on WS, and amazingly enough, you do a lot of WS *gasp* for those DA to proc while using soboro.

If you use Hagun or other non-soboro katana out of personal preference and/or love of e-peen WS damage, SAM/WAR gets that much better. Amazingly enough, from what I've seen, a lot of SAM/NIN don't use soboro. Maybe they're just retard SAM/NIN, but at least in their case, using SAM/WAR is better by a long shot.

Not to mention that utsusemi, takes sometime to cast, especially if you're too much of a dumbass to cancel hasso before casting. TE in the other hand is instant, and is likely catch more attack than 3 shadow for the most part if you catch hate, especially if the mob is being extra bitchy with their WS > DA > WS.

Also just because you have Utsusemi doesn't magically mean you can't use Seigan, or vice versa. Believe it or not the two abilities can be used in concert, they are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

I'd like to know what kind of mob you tank in merit party that requires the use of both Seigan/TE and Utsusemi in regularity enough to actually merit a job combination that has access to both.

No seriously, are you exping on Wyrm or something?

[Yutuyu]

On Colibri, sure, there's no need to sub Ninja. If the only place I ever partied was Colibris, I'd never sub ninja. But the Colibri camp is ridiculous crowded 99.9% of the time on my server.

At Mamool Ja ninja sub becomes a lot more useful, especially with the occaisional Wyvern and Puk mixed in. They both hit very fast, and Wyverns hit really hard. I always seem to tank Wyverns too as they have high evade and defense, which doesn't effect my weapon skills much, so my damage output isn't cut as much as other people's (the same is true for Mamool Ja).

And then there's the Caedarva camps where you can get seigan completely shut down by Amnesia, and the only way to get a defensive buff up is Utsusemi. I know what you're going to say; they use Silencega too. Simple: bring echo drops or get a silena. Amensia cannot be removed. The difference is even bigger if you get stuck fighting Soulflayers and Imps.

None of those camps are ideal, with any luck you'll never have to go anywhere near them and you can stay with the Colibri all day, but if you merit a lot, especially at peak times, that's not gonna happen.

[Talisien]

Fulltiming seigan as a SAM/WAR still net a fuckton more damage than a SAM/NIN fulltiming hasso.

This is proven...how?

Berserk v. 10% Haste is really a comparison?? 10 str + 10 attack v. 10 attack + x str (/war v. /nin) is obviously a win for Hasso. Warcry is lol, and 10% DA is awesome for some GKTs, but a complete neutral for Soboro (still arguably the best GKT for xp besides Relic).

I still don\'t think /nin is somehow a magic formula for taking no damage, but it\'s a helluva lot easier to precast Ni every fight than recast 3e every 30 seconds.

Don't know about your SAM, but my SAM gets 110ish ATK from berserk without food, and that number rises waaaay higher with the existence food, BRD and COR. I know haste is good and all, but I somehow doubt that it's 11+:1 ATK to Haste ratio good.

I have no idea what the correct ratio is for ATK: Haste, however the unknown value of that ratio doesn't seem to account for the blazing sarcasm in your post.

It's almost as though it, *gasp*, warrants discussion. And on a forum no less. Color me embarrassed.

Otherwise I agreed with your points.

[RKenshin]

War: 10% DA, 10 attack, couple points of STR, Berserk which I can rarely use without leeching even more MP
NIN: Taking a lot less damage

lol wow, no offense but... I sincerely hope you realize how biased/ignorant that statement is. I'm not even going to touch it further.

If all you can do is state that the fact that I am wrong there is "self-evident" when it isn't in any way shape or form, then there's nothing more to discuss. If you'd like to rationally explain to me what's wrong with that assertion fine.

You missed the point I was making. What you did there has no place in a debate with someone. Let me break it down a little simpler, it basically looks like this as an extreme example: "I'm going to compare the two conflicting options and support the option that ties with my opinion, making it incredibly obvious which is better because I'll only list positives in favor of my situation and list all negatives for going against it:

This option opposing my opinion: Now I list negative aspects and positive aspects in a negative way. Oh, and God hates people that choose this option.
This option with my opinion: All positive aspects, no negative. "

Understand what I was pointing out?

As for the rest of your post, it's a matter of subjectivity. On another post you've claimed to have xp'd very little in the past 6 months (which is when we started pulling even more hate), so are you sure you really have a clue what you're talking about?

It's speaking relatively, sorry I didn't make that clear? I've still obtained a good 800k exp over the last 6 months, which is probably more than most people have in this game, but speaking relatively that's not as much as usual considering I've gotten that much in just a month or two. I mean if you want to compare me to your average situation that'd probably qualify as exp'ing my ass off, but relatively to my whole 75 career? It's a lull as far as I'm concerned when you consider the exp/h you're capable of has jumped drastically.

And, seriously, it doesn't even matter. I could never exp once in 6 months and still 'know what I'm talking about' and arguably have more experience than you or even 90% of the SAMs in the game (I don't mean to presume, but I'm tired of tip-toeing around in this topic). Think for two seconds here. Is there anything else to do in this game other than exp? You know, like Dynamis/Limbus/Einherjar/Salvage/etc? AKA those situations that mimic an exp PT in almost every way? Me being in an HNM LS, I'm doing those events daily (as many as 13-16 events a week here), and that alone is more than enough to warrent I know what I'm talking about. Not to mention the 500 other reasons, like the fact I was tanking near-full time before the update that broke SAM.

If anything you're the one I could say is the one that doesn't know what you're talking about. This update barely changed anything for me. When you're already tanking like 90% of the time, SE coming along and breaking your job further doesn't make a big difference. On the other hand, you've only been doing this for a month by that logic. So the person lacking experience here would be you by large amounts if you really want to look at things that way.

Cancelling Hasso before every WS is going result in lost numbers, and you are going to take more damage with /war. The damage difference between /nin and /war really is not as great as you're making it out to be, but the defensive difference is huge.

What the hell lol... Seriously.

What part of 'SAM/WAR using Seigan full-time' includes using Hasso?

And yes, the damage difference is huge. And no, the defensive difference isn't huge. I don't feel like explaining it all again. Go ask a MNK whether or not his damage jumps significant with /NIN vs /WAR. Then multiply it by 1.5 because IMO the difference between SAM/WAR and SAM/NIN is greater than MNK/WAR and MNK/NIN in a normal situation.

And man, the sad part is I never even have to use Hasso full time in most of the better PTs. But I'll give you the '100% Seigan SAM/WAR onry' just because it's too complex to define further.

@ RKenshin: It's a valid argument. When in merit, do you actually swap in an earth staff?

Nah, never. It's something I always keep on me regardless, and I may have on a Skoffin like two times ever but I never usually use it for anything outside of tanking through hundred fists.

This is proven...how?

Berserk v. 10% Haste is really a comparison?? 10 str + 10 attack v. 10 attack + x str (/war v. /nin) is obviously a win for Hasso. Warcry is lol, and 10% DA is awesome for some GKTs, but a complete neutral for Soboro (still arguably the best GKT for xp besides Relic).

I still don\'t think /nin is somehow a magic formula for taking no damage, but it\'s a helluva lot easier to precast Ni every fight than recast 3e every 30 seconds.

Berserk (+25% attack, which should give aproximately 125 attack), 10 Attack, ~3 STR?, 10% DA vs 10 Acc, 10 STR, 10 Att, 10 Haste?

Yeah it's no comparison, but in favor of /WAR. People need to realize that without high amounts of attack your 2h weapon is going to be no stronger than it was before the 2h update. The raise in the PDIF cap is only put to use if you have sufficiently high amounts of attack to get there, and you need all of songs/berserk/attack food to reach it consistantly. There's just no contest between average 30-50+ damage per hit more.

This alone is a big enough crutch to kill the whole /WAR vs /NIN damage potential crap with a single stone. Without even going into the STR/10% DA/etc. And what the hell people, PROVOkE IS A VERY IMPORTANT ABILITY IN THIS GAME. IT IS IMPORTANT TOO. You bums.

Who am I kidding, 99% of the people with access to Provoke don't know how to use it anyway.

And casting Ni before every fight is in no way easier. Doesn't matter what PT I'm in, I'm engaged to the next mob to kill before the current one dies most of the time (as it should typically be), and stopping 2-6 seconds to cast ni/ichi is wasting 1-3 swings before every fight. Versus activating an instant JA.

At Mamool Ja ninja sub becomes a lot more useful, especially with the occaisional Wyvern and Puk mixed in. They both hit very fast, and Wyverns hit really hard. I always seem to tank Wyverns too as they have high evade and defense, which doesn't effect my weapon skills much, so my damage output isn't cut as much as other people's (the same is true for Mamool Ja).

I PT the most at Mamool Ja, and it's also my preference. Still no problems there, and in fact of the people I PT with I feel safe to say I die the least often. It happens and it's unavoidable sometimes regardless of what you sub or what gear you have, but it's really very rare for me there. I can eat curry and feel rather confident it's not going to be lost in the PT (although doesn't mean it won't in like dynamis or something ).

The whole amnesia argument is kind of silly considering you 1) Almost never exp in Mire, and 2) The mobs hit for crap damage. I'll have Berserk up and still often get hit for <100 damage there. But, in any case, I just about never PT there in the first place just because it's the slowest exp and typically where <75 PTs go.

[Zilong]

On Colibri, sure, there's no need to sub Ninja. If the only place I ever partied was Colibris, I'd never sub ninja. But the Colibri camp is ridiculous crowded 99.9% of the time on my server.

At Mamool Ja ninja sub becomes a lot more useful, especially with the occaisional Wyvern and Puk mixed in. They both hit very fast, and Wyverns hit really hard. I always seem to tank Wyverns too as they have high evade and defense, which doesn't effect my weapon skills much, so my damage output isn't cut as much as other people's (the same is true for Mamool Ja).

And then there's the Caedarva camps where you can get seigan completely shut down by Amnesia, and the only way to get a defensive buff up is Utsusemi. I know what you're going to say; they use Silencega too. Simple: bring echo drops or get a silena. Amensia cannot be removed. The difference is even bigger if you get stuck fighting Soulflayers and Imps.

None of those camps are ideal, with any luck you'll never have to go anywhere near them and you can stay with the Colibri all day, but if you merit a lot, especially at peak times, that's not gonna happen.

Funny, I partied on all those zone you listed (well...beside caedarva anyway, I don't voluntarily subject myself to torture) and I really didn't have much of an issue with mamool ja at all. I mean I did die a few time, but that was due to seigan wearing off without me knowing and me being forced to tank TE-less or when I decide to try out hasso, which is almost never a good idea when you're running on berserked sub 200 DEF and is playing a job that can get hate by glancing at the mob. Beyond that, SAM/WAR isn't nearly as big as a sponge as you make it out to be. TE is pretty reliable to absorb 2-3 hit at the very least, blocks an entire multihit WS, and occassionally peter out in 1-2 hit, but count that on god hating you, the same kind of occassion where a BLM lethally firespit you despite having shadows up. Hell, even taking fang rush straight to the face isn't necessarily lethal, and if you're an elvaan or galka, you'd have enough HP to take it without worrying too much, berserk or not.

Granted, I party with LS member and opt for parties with 2 people being able to stay at camp and heal (this means fuck those RDM/WHM + BRD/NIN + 4 melee party) on mamools, but it's not like finding combination of 2 RDM,WHM,stay at camp BRD is that hard nowadays at merit.

I have no idea what the correct ratio is for ATK: Haste, however the unknown value of that ratio doesn't seem to account for the blazing sarcasm in your post.

Well, if 1% haste is valued that much, I'd imagine more DRK,DRG, and WAR would be TPing in blitz ring, since that'd be equivalent to 11+ ATK on the ringslot and Turban would be considered better than Ace's Helm since 2H job doesn't have much of an issue with ACC.

edit: Yeah, I agree with Rkenshin, provoke is fucking amazing for merit. From claiming mob, keeping mob at camp, and saving mage/melee's life, it's by far the most spammed macro I have beside WS swap and WS macro.

[RKenshin]

Oh, and @ Zilong. This thread isn't a total fail!

Oddly enough debating here has been great for taking out all the frustration I'm getting from a current group project. I'm going on 16 of the last 26 hours dedicated to working on this gd peace of shit in between classes/etc with no sleep, and ready to kill if I get another error / another message with a group member not knowing how to do something stupidly simple in SQL/Access.

I might've snapped if I didn't have people to argue with!

(sorry if I was/be a little mean in advanced)

[Churchill]

Wait.

People are arguing with Ruke? About SAM? Are you retarded?

[aurik]

I sub nin on my samurai, it's great for soloing bst pets! Ding 49

[Judai]

This thread just shows why so many SAMs fail.