Samurai SJ

[RKenshin]

I sub nin on my samurai, it's great for soloing bst pets! Ding 49

Silly MNKs and their passion for subbing NIN.

[Yutuyu]

War: 10% DA, 10 attack, couple points of STR, Berserk which I can rarely use without leeching even more MP
NIN: Taking a lot less damage

lol wow, no offense but... I sincerely hope you realize how biased/ignorant that statement is. I'm not even going to touch it further.

If all you can do is state that the fact that I am wrong there is "self-evident" when it isn't in any way shape or form, then there's nothing more to discuss. If you'd like to rationally explain to me what's wrong with that assertion fine.

You missed the point I was making. What you did there has no place in a debate with someone. Let me break it down a little simpler, it basically looks like this as an extreme example: "I'm going to compare the two conflicting options and support the option that ties with my opinion, making it incredibly obvious which is better because I'll only list positives in favor of my situation and list all negatives for going against it:

This option opposing my opinion: Now I list negative aspects and positive aspects in a negative way. Oh, and God hates people that choose this option.
This option with my opinion: All positive aspects, no negative. "

Understand what I was pointing out?

No, what has no place in debate is outright mocking someone and saying that they're wrong without giving any evidence whatsoever. Your saying "lol" in the middle of things and telling me I'm wrong without giving any rational explaination whatsoever is not debating.

But the fact is, when I was listing pros and cons, I didn't even list everything in favor of Ninja sub. I mentioned a few minimal points of STR gained, but I did not mention the minimal dex gain by using ninja sub. I didn't argue that you swapping into def gear will lower your damage during that time, nor did I argue that berserk is only up 60% of the time if you use it again right away. And I didn't list the extremely negligable (however noticable on some HNMs) effect of Subtle Blow.

So no, I don't understand what you were pointing out, I didn't do what you claim I did. I didn't frame the question in a way that I win the debate.

As for the rest of your post, it's a matter of subjectivity. On another post you've claimed to have xp'd very little in the past 6 months (which is when we started pulling even more hate), so are you sure you really have a clue what you're talking about?

It's speaking relatively, sorry I didn't make that clear? I've still obtained a good 800k exp over the last 6 months, which is probably more than most people have in this game, but speaking relatively that's not as much as usual considering I've gotten that much in just a month or two. I mean if you want to compare me to your average situation that'd probably qualify as exp'ing my ass off, but relatively to my whole 75 career? It's a lull as far as I'm concerned when you consider the exp/h you're capable of has jumped drastically.

And, seriously, it doesn't even matter. I could never exp once in 6 months and still 'know what I'm talking about' and arguably have more experience than you or even 90% of the SAMs in the game (I don't mean to presume, but I'm tired of tip-toeing around in this topic). Think for two seconds here. Is there anything else to do in this game other than exp? You know, like Dynamis/Limbus/Einherjar/Salvage/etc? AKA those situations that mimic an exp PT in almost every way? Me being in an HNM LS, I'm doing those events daily (as many as 13-16 events a week here), and that alone is more than enough to warrent I know what I'm talking about. Not to mention the 500 other reasons, like the fact I was tanking near-full time before the update that broke SAM.

If anything you're the one I could say is the one that doesn't know what you're talking about. This update barely changed anything for me. When you're already tanking like 90% of the time, SE coming along and breaking your job further doesn't make a big difference. On the other hand, you've only been doing this for a month by that logic. So the person lacking experience here would be you by large amounts if you really want to look at things that way.

I love how you bring out your overall knowledge of the game when the context being discussed specifically was XP parties. Good for you. You say you've been playing longer than us, etc. etc. etc. Only Seigan was only added what, a year ago? Any experience relating to this before then has nothing to do with the matter at hand.

Cancelling Hasso before every WS is going result in lost numbers, and you are going to take more damage with /war. The damage difference between /nin and /war really is not as great as you're making it out to be, but the defensive difference is huge.

What the hell lol... Seriously.

What part of 'SAM/WAR using Seigan full-time' includes using Hasso?

And yes, the damage difference is huge. And no, the defensive difference isn't huge. I don't feel like explaining it all again. Go ask a MNK whether or not his damage jumps significant with /NIN vs /WAR. Then multiply it by 1.5 because IMO the difference between SAM/WAR and SAM/NIN is greater than MNK/WAR and MNK/NIN in a normal situation.

And man, the sad part is I never even have to use Hasso full time in most of the better PTs. But I'll give you the '100% Seigan SAM/WAR onry' just because it's too complex to define further.

You're claiming /war's damage is much greater than /nin's based on the fact that MNK/war's is much greater than MNK/NIN? Do we even have to have this debate? Please tell me you realize that MNK and SAM are in no way similar in how they do their damage. I realize you play with a relic weapon which gives a little more meaning to your DoT than your average Hagun swinging Samurai, but you should REALLY know better than to make that argument. This is just plain ridiculous.

@ RKenshin: It's a valid argument. When in merit, do you actually swap in an earth staff?

Nah, never. It's something I always keep on me regardless, and I may have on a Skoffin like two times ever but I never usually use it for anything outside of tanking through hundred fists.

This is proven...how?

Berserk v. 10% Haste is really a comparison?? 10 str + 10 attack v. 10 attack + x str (/war v. /nin) is obviously a win for Hasso. Warcry is lol, and 10% DA is awesome for some GKTs, but a complete neutral for Soboro (still arguably the best GKT for xp besides Relic).

I still don\'t think /nin is somehow a magic formula for taking no damage, but it\'s a helluva lot easier to precast Ni every fight than recast 3e every 30 seconds.

Berserk (+25% attack, which should give aproximately 125 attack), 10 Attack, ~3 STR?, 10% DA vs 10 Acc, 10 STR, 10 Att, 10 Haste?

Yeah it's no comparison, but in favor of /WAR. People need to realize that without high amounts of attack your 2h weapon is going to be no stronger than it was before the 2h update. The raise in the PDIF cap is only put to use if you have sufficiently high amounts of attack to get there, and you need all of songs/berserk/attack food to reach it consistantly. There's just no contest between average 30-50+ damage per hit more.

I love how you totally fail to mention that Berserk is only active 60% of the time and that during that time you're taking a ton more damage. And it's only active 60% of the time if you hit the macro every time that it goes down and fighting is completely seamless without any breaks inbetween. Obviously berserk's timer stops running when there's nothing to fight, right?

This alone is a big enough crutch to kill the whole /WAR vs /NIN damage potential crap with a single stone. Without even going into the STR/10% DA/etc. And what the hell people, PROVOkE IS A VERY IMPORTANT ABILITY IN THIS GAME. IT IS IMPORTANT TOO. You bums.

Who am I kidding, 99% of the people with access to Provoke don't know how to use it anyway.

And casting Ni before every fight is in no way easier. Doesn't matter what PT I'm in, I'm engaged to the next mob to kill before the current one dies most of the time (as it should typically be), and stopping 2-6 seconds to cast ni/ichi is wasting 1-3 swings before every fight. Versus activating an instant JA.

Yes so far we've established that in your pickup parties your pullers are perfect (they always have the mob at camp without lag), your mages never run out of MP, and your seigan is never unlucky. I guess Amanomurakumo is just that good.

At Mamool Ja ninja sub becomes a lot more useful, especially with the occaisional Wyvern and Puk mixed in. They both hit very fast, and Wyverns hit really hard. I always seem to tank Wyverns too as they have high evade and defense, which doesn't effect my weapon skills much, so my damage output isn't cut as much as other people's (the same is true for Mamool Ja).

I PT the most at Mamool Ja, and it's also my preference. Still no problems there, and in fact of the people I PT with I feel safe to say I die the least often. It happens and it's unavoidable sometimes regardless of what you sub or what gear you have, but it's really very rare for me there. I can eat curry and feel rather confident it's not going to be lost in the PT (although doesn't mean it won't in like dynamis or something ).

This probably has nothing to do with your having a D ring!

The whole amnesia argument is kind of silly considering you 1) Almost never exp in Mire, and 2) The mobs hit for crap damage. I'll have Berserk up and still often get hit for <100 damage there. But, in any case, I just about never PT there in the first place just because it's the slowest exp and typically where <75 PTs go.

Souleaters hit for crap damage? I mean I agree, I never really want to go there, but that's because they're painful. Now if you mean the imps and the flies, true. But every little bit of MP counts when they're spamming AOE damage, which guess what, still makes /nin useful.

Look, I'm not saying /war might not be the best option for you, maybe it is. But guess what, for those of us without relic weapons and D rings, maybe /nin isn't total crap? You don't even have the statistics to back up what you say about the "1.5*MNK damage loss" claim. Honestly most of what you're saying is just completely ridiculous.

[Yutuyu]

And in another thread RKenshin wrote:

and I haven't joined an exp PT more than maybe 10 times in the last 6 months (not counting short ones for <20k exp)

And he only parties in pickups and he's not very picky!

It's speaking relatively, sorry I didn't make that clear? I've still obtained a good 800k exp over the last 6 months, which is probably more than most people have in this game,

So in short you're so awesome that you can gain more XP in 10 parties than most people have in the entire game; from pickup parties too!

[RKenshin]

And in another thread RKenshin wrote:

and I haven't joined an exp PT more than maybe 10 times in the last 6 months (not counting short ones for <20k exp)

And he only parties in pickups and he's not very picky!

It's speaking relatively, sorry I didn't make that clear? I've still obtained a good 800k exp over the last 6 months, which is probably more than most people have in this game,

So in short you're so awesome that you can gain more XP in 10 parties than most people have in the entire game; from pickup parties too!

Wow, ok now you're crossing a line between debating and just acting like a kid. I'm assuming you passed elementry school because you can write, but you're struggling with reading. First of all, how about you start by quoting in context to convey the true meaning instead of your incorrect assumptions:

I've still obtained a good 800k exp over the last 6 months, which is probably more than most people have in this game, but speaking relatively that's not as much as usual considering I've gotten that much in just a month or two. I mean if you want to compare me to your average situation that'd probably qualify as exp'ing my ass off, but relatively to my whole 75 career? It's a lull as far as I'm concerned when you consider the exp/h you're capable of has jumped drastically.

To make it more clear to someone that tries to read a sentence incorrectly to his advantage (aka, you), it should read as "I've still obtained a good 800k exp over the last 6 months, which is probably more than most people have in this game in the same frame of time." It's just a fact dude, most people don't even merit much to begin with... Hell as a poll on BG proved not all too long ago, most people probably have <100 merits. 800k exp is 80 merits worth, so why is it so hard to believe that it's a fact the majority of the FF population probably doesn't get more than 800k exp/month. Unless of course you're implying that the majority of the FF population that has had a 75 job over the past three years has over 400 merits or even over 300 merits (in which case, you're still wrong by a long shot..). Oh hey, your ignorance is showing, might want to cover that up.

And, I don't know if you're purposefully trying to forget/ignoring what I said earlier to make you feel better about your points, but what part about being in multiple 30k/h PTs recently makes it hard to believe I could get 800k exp in a small number of PTs? Especially when I join more pickup PTs than 'elitist', and the average pickup PT usually gets <20k exp before breaking, which I didn't include in my count of the # of PTs I've been in for the last year. Oh wait, let me make that clear too:

and I haven't joined an exp PT more than maybe 10 times in the last 6 months (not counting short ones for <20k exp)

Wait, shit, that makes sense. Pickup PTs tend to be short and for low amounts of exp, could it be that... Most of the pickup PTs I join are for less than 20k exp? And therefor, were not counted in the total of 10 real PTs I estimated? And that the 10 worthwhile PTs for over 20k exp, were probably the typical 'elitist' type PTs getting 20-30k/hour? Holy fucking shit, what is this... It's like, when I use my brain I can figure stuff out and it makes sense. You ever try it? Wait, you're the one who couldn't figure this out. Using my brain once again, that tells me the answer must be no.

Seriously, what next? What else do you want to try to incorrectly call me out on in attempt to make one of your points right, only to be proved wrong again? I was all fine and dandy having a debate with you but if you want to reduce it to a childish play on words/sarcasm and insults then you will get just about the same right back at you.


EDITs: I added nice bolding and font sizes to make some points more clear so you don't have to think so hard about what I mean. I would add colors but, I'm not feeling artistic.

[Ashael]

Personally, I strongly prefer SAM/WAR. Shadows are not some god given piece of invincibility. /nin you are half the damage dealer you can be. Soboro /nin isn't totally gimptastic, but Hagun/nin, you lose too much. I think Ruke adequately covered it, but in case you missed it:
/nin: you gain 6 shadows with extensive recast timers, and the use of Hasso full time. 10 attack, 10% Haste. You also lose the seconds you are involved with casting shadows, at doubled duration, unless you're cancelling Hasso, then you're wasting the time still reapplying Hasso.
/war: you gain 70 attack from Berserk (calculating the 3/5th), 10 attack from attack bonus, provoke, and DOUBLE ATTACK. You can also spike Hasso occasionally for Epeen, or just from boredom.

Attack is really great for 2 handers currently. I think it's near a 5:1 ratio for the acceptability of Attack : Haste trading.

Crappy merit parties, I'm sure you may require /nin, to go along with the mnk/nins and drg/nin and other gimped DDs. Or when all you have is a single BRD/WHM trying to keep everyone alive.
Good merit parties, no one should be subbing NIN. Troll camp is excessively fun, and far more interesting than Bird camp. We can infinite chain, SAM/war, DRK/sam, WAR/sam, MNK/war, whatever. Counter tank or Seigan tank if you pull hate.
Salvage, we run a MNK/nin and WAR/sam tank duo.
Really, /nin is saved for fights where you require a tank. Real tanks, spam tanks.
Anything you can DD, get a real sub.

[SamanosukeShiva]

the only time I probably will /NIN for SAM is when I fight gay mob that usually cast magic more than melee.

[Kyupi/Kij]

Semi-related (and this is actually what I thought the topic was about when I clicked on it, lol) can any users of WAR(or etc)/SAM enlighten me if it's worth the MP sponge, pre-70(Seigan)?

From all the praises of Seigan I've heard I imagine that it's pretty popular once you break 70 and /SAM really offers a lot more benefit than the /NIN of yesterwhatever now that everyone's swinging Great Axes. I've always been a big fan of /NIN with just about any frontliner in 1-74 xp (I'm pretty disappointed that PLD/NIN doesn't seem to work 24-74, I think it would be fun lol) just so the requirement of a "real tank" can be mitigated for regular camps. Regardless, I'm beginning to wonder if I should look into having non-gimped /SAM sooner than that, in situational-shit.

(So not loving the fact that my planned trips through the Dunes are INCREASING rather than decreasing... ><)

[Saraphym]

Its all situational.

situational

thread should've ended somewhere there.

[aurik]

I sub nin on my samurai, it's great for soloing bst pets! Ding 49

Silly MNKs and their passion for subbing NIN.

Hey, last time we fought the Zhayolm chariot I counted the number of physical hits we took...with only a brd and whm, we only took 5 hits. So nyah!

[Judai]

Its all situational.

situational

thread should've ended somewhere there.

it's really not though. /nin is just gimp.

situational in shitty sam and good sam maybe.

[Resin]

Its all situational.

situational

thread should've ended somewhere there.

it's really not though. /nin is just gimp.

situational in shitty sam and good sam maybe.

Dude, it's really not that clear-cut. Which mages, melee jobs, mobs you're fighting all determine support job choice. Saying a blanket statement like "/WAR is always better than /NIN in merit" is just silly.

[RKenshin]

Who wants to read a nice novel? I know I do.

No, what has no place in debate is outright mocking someone and saying that they're wrong without giving any evidence whatsoever. Your saying "lol" in the middle of things and telling me I'm wrong without giving any rational explaination whatsoever is not debating.

Interpret it as you will but I have not mocked you once in any of these posts minus the last one addressing your clear misinterpretations of what I was saying to mock me. Which was only retaliating to you starting it. You're just looking for reasons to support yourself and failing at finding them now. Me using "lol" one time total over numerous posts at how bluntly ignorant a statement you made was isn't mocking to any reasonble degree. Especially when I actually point it out and explain how it's interpreted the way that makes it so questionable/amusing. Mocking you would just be laughing at you with no further explanation needed.

And really, what the hell do you mean me provide evidence? I just posted evidence in this thread of how well damage reduction works, and that was one of my points with SAM/WAR. Just mentiong that part, how does that equate to 'no evidence/explanation whatsoever' at all? Seriously, if anything I've continually provided more examples of evidence in this thread than you have. You're the one that needs to provide it.

I've listed countless examples now in this thread where I've made SAM/WAR work and how. I've said what kind of PTs I've done it in, what I do, what gear I equip, the exp/h I've got doing this, examples of PT setups, and places similar to PTs where I continue to use the same strategy (AKA, dynamis/limbus/einherjar/slavage). If you really want to I could probably get people here from my server to post in agreement with what I've been saying... And, I have this little LJ link in my signature that explains it all further.

Only thing you've done is say it doesn't work because on paper it doesn't sound like it should; you're the one that needs evidence. You've posted no evidence, no experiences, and no situations where you've made any kind of attempt with SAM/WAR and failed miserably. You've only been speaking figuratively towards the situation where you felt you couldn't use Berserk or DD while /WAR because you'd sponge too much, which is one of the only truly ridiculous statement in this thread.

I'll say it again, you're the one lacking evidence. Nothing about me relating my experiences/situations and posting a picture on the topic of the utility of damage reduction for /WAR doesn't count for evidence, versus nothing other than your word about how you sucked with SAM/WAR.

I love how you bring out your overall knowledge of the game when the context being discussed specifically was XP parties. Good for you. You say you've been playing longer than us, etc. etc. etc. Only Seigan was only added what, a year ago? Any experience relating to this before then has nothing to do with the matter at hand.

You not knowing how to read/interpret sentences correctly is getting really frustrating. Much less actually thinking through it before drawing conclusions.

I'm not bringing in knowledge of the game in general as a factor, think again for two seconds here Einstein. You know that a merit PT is in just about every way, shape and form, almost exactly like Limbus/Dynamis/Einherjar/Salvage? Me referencing the amount of time I spend doing those events is a point towards the fact that you don't need to join an exp PT to get any worthwhile/unique experience that you couldn't in one of those events. Trying to say that an exp PT is unlike anything in the game is just pure ignorance. It's all just mindless killing as efficient/fast as possible with different spins on some aspects, and whether or not you learn about the utility of a SJ vs a SJ in all those events or in exp really doesn't matter.

The fact is that if something important applies for exp as far as a gear choice/how to play a job/etc, then it almost certainly applies to Limbus/Dynamis/Einherjar/Salvage. And your point fails in ways I can't describe for not realizing this.

And seriously, stop acting like a kid. At no point do I ever say or even suggest that I myself have been playing longer than anyone here. Nice job at making a point addressing statement that WAS NEVER SAID (now that, is lol). Scrape a little deeper for something to use against me, because you're just failing at it so far.

(And yes I'm doing being polite/civil since you decided to turn this into a shit-throwing fest).

You're claiming /war's damage is much greater than /nin's based on the fact that MNK/war's is much greater than MNK/NIN? Do we even have to have this debate? Please tell me you realize that MNK and SAM are in no way similar in how they do their damage. I realize you play with a relic weapon which gives a little more meaning to your DoT than your average Hagun swinging Samurai, but you should REALLY know better than to make that argument. This is just plain ridiculous.

The fact you don't even recognize the point I made is what's ridiculous...

You know that regardless of the form of DoT, Berserk affects it by a large amount all the same, right? Whether your DoT is 50% WS and 50% melee or 75% melee and 25% WS, Berserk will increase your melee average/WS average by a considerable amount all the same. And yes, captain obvious, Berserk is on only 60% of the time! But it still has a large effect!

Or do you not notice any difference between a Berserk/Mithkabob/Songs Gekko and a no buff whatsoever Gekko? Because that's what you're recommending, and THAT is what's ridiculous.

Complain about the fine details of the comparison all you want, but in the end no matter how you look at it the general point is still true. It has a significant effect on your melee/WS averages, and hence your overall DoT. And what's ridiculous is you can't even realize that.

Oh btw, not sure if I already said it yet, but it's ridiculous you can't realize this.

I love how you totally fail to mention that Berserk is only active 60% of the time and that during that time you're taking a ton more damage. And it's only active 60% of the time if you hit the macro every time that it goes down and fighting is completely seamless without any breaks inbetween. Obviously berserk's timer stops running when there's nothing to fight, right?

You know what I love?

I love how you take something completely irrelevant to the actual point I'm making and exclaim about how I didn't mention it, in attempt to make a completely unrelated point to what I was trying to say. You know why I didn't go into Berserk's duration? Because guess what Bob, it doesn't fucking matter to the point I was making. The point had to do with getting all the attack you could through all sources at all times because of the weight it has on your melee/average with the new PDIF equations, and you know what that includes? Having Berserk. What part of that point am I going into the finer details of duration about any attack buff? Never.

Do I really have to take this down to the reading level of a kid and state the obvious for all the idiots in the background that Berserk isn't up 100% of the time? I really fucking hope not, especially when the main point concerning achieving a high PDIF isn't about how effective one source of attack is versus another. But I guess there's always one kid in the back that has to stand out and be the dunce. Thanks for just having to be that guy.

So let's see, the rest of what you said is basically... Taking irrelevant information and running on with it, to make yourself look right on some point (and sadly, failing once more), when it has nothing to do with what I was talking of. Nice job there, you're almost ready to run for president.

I should start tallying up, this is the third time you've done this.

Yes so far we've established that in your pickup parties your pullers are perfect (they always have the mob at camp without lag), your mages never run out of MP, and your seigan is never unlucky. I guess Amanomurakumo is just that good.

Here we go again with that reading problem.

I'm not implying there's always a mob at camp as much as your incredibly witty retort wishes it were true. I'm saying that if there is a mob in range for us, which there is a majority of the time in every PT you're getting more than 5k/h in, I'm getting ready to change target to it as soon as I can. It's this wonderful habit you pick-up from calling mobs in dynamis for 3 years, you should try it too. What's even more wonderful though, is being able to Provoke and help pull to ensure that mob is ready and/or coming to you when you need to engage it. Hence the point I made earlier about using Provoke literally seconds after it's ready every time throughout an exp PT, but I guess you just ignored that since it doesn't fit with your point. But I guess Mr. SAM/NIN wouldn't know anything about this anyway would he? Heck most SAM/WARs don't, needless to say more melees suck at using Provoke than there should be.

Yeah and of course, my Seigan is never unlucky. That's why I don't have defense gear, I never even mentioned defense gear ever in any post concerning SAM. Because well, who would use it when Seigan is never unlucky? I sure wouldn't, don't let anything I said before about switching into defense gear when needed fooling you into thinking otherwise. Because cutting damage almost in half doesn't help reduce damage at all anyway.

This probably has nothing to do with your having a D ring!

I shall act like a 13 year old for 30 seconds. Hope you're not offended.

AHAHAHAHHAHA YOU WALKED RIGHT FUCKING INTO IT HOLY SHIT LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL AHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!AAA@@L@LL1111!LOL

Ok. To clarify:

And first person to think you can't do these things without/it isn't worth it without a defending ring or all HQ gets a big stupid stamp on the forehead. Half the time when we do this I don't even have all my damage reduction gear, and in other situations it will still be considerably more effective vs getting the shit kicked out of you in normal TP gear.

Further:

And first person to think you can't do these things without/it isn't worth it without a defending ring or all HQ gets a big stupid stamp on the forehead.

A little more:

gets a big stupid stamp on the forehead.

You know what you get now, right?

And yeah, you're wrong.

You don't even have the statistics to back up what you say about the "1.5*MNK damage loss" claim.

You do know what the PDIF change did to 2h weapons right? And how you need large amounts of attack to take advantage of this? And that the PDIF change (iirc) is smaller for 2h weapons (although still slightly raised). I'd love to explain further but then you might go on a rant about Berserk only being up 60% of the time even though it has nothing to do with the general point of how PDIF works.

Put in simple terms, large amounts of attack past what would normally cap a MNK on attack, will not cap a SAM on attack. In fact, you can't consistently cap out attack on SAM without averaging like... 900-1100 attack or so with capped fSTR? I forgot the actual number.

In addition, large amounts of attack make a significantly bigger difference on SAM WS. Kaiten more than others, but for example with no DA and no buffs a Tachi: Kaiten will do ~600-800 on a Lesser Colibri. With food/berserk/etc it is bumped up to 1500-1900 without DA. MNK doesn't get anywhere near the same percent improvement from a low attack Asuran Fists vs a high attack one. YGK's returns aren't too much different from Kaiten's either in regard to the large variation with different values of attack. So yes, speaking relatively the percent improvement in performance is arguably larger going from SAM/NIN to SAM/WAR than MNK/NIN to MNK/WAR. Not that I actually made this observation from having a 75 MNK though, I don't even have MNK unlocked.

Those are facts. And you think it's ridiculous? Shows what you know about all this stuff you claim to know something about, or at least enough to feel you can truly decide what's 'ridiculous' and what sounds right.

[Churchill]

ITT2007: Berserk sucks.

[Yutuyu]

Tell you what, I'll give you a public apology if you parse it and prove everything you've said. It's basically just more of the same, you claim something without any proof seeming to sound intelligent by throwing out all sorts of unsubstantiated opinion-facts. Parse damage taken and damage output /nin and /war and see if you're actually right, oh and uh, use a hagun or a soboro. Also, you should make sure you keep the stats of other damage dealers available so that we know you don't purposely throw things or make up the data to keep your massive ego from imploding.

[aurik]

Tell you what, I'll give you a public apology if you parse it and prove everything you've said. It's basically just more of the same, you claim something without any proof seeming to sound intelligent by throwing out all sorts of unsubstantiated opinion-facts. Parse damage taken and damage output /nin and /war and see if you're actually right, oh and uh, use a hagun or a soboro. Also, you should make sure you keep the stats of other damage dealers available so that we know you don't purposely throw things or make up the data to keep your massive ego from imploding.

Man, you just got yourself owned, I think Ruke was born running a parser.

[Saraphym]

The OP was referring to sam SJ in general, not just merit parties. You're not going to sub nin for everything, likewise you're not going to sub war for everything. If you plan to lvl SAM to 75 just lvl both eventually and sub as necessary. For Meriting just sub whatever you like, it all depends on how you play, the camp, the ptsetup/support etc. In the end it doesn't really matter with ToAU camps, especially not birds and its not going to break or make your exp/hr. The only thing that will vary with /nin and /war in a standard merit is your e-peen dmg and parse.

[Lordender]

The amount of fail in this thread is remarkable.

Why the fuck do you bother with SAM/NIN when utilizing Seigan on SAM/WAR accomplish the exact same thing as far as damage mitigation is concerned (or better...hi2u Rushing ____,Vorpal Blade, Fang Rush, Pecking Flurry) hell, if you worry so fucking much about taking damage, go fulltime seigan. Fulltiming seigan as a SAM/WAR still net a fuckton more damage than a SAM/NIN fulltiming hasso.

Because the bad players in this game flock to bandwagon jobs, imo sam is the bandwagon job right now. I remember seeing those same retards jumping on the rng bandwagon then it was the blm, mnk,war bandwagons. There are always total shit players who have gimpy gear,use retarded logic while playing the job using dumb ass subjobs and having extremely shitty gear.

[Zilong]

Tell you what, I'll give you a public apology if you parse it and prove everything you've said. It's basically just more of the same, you claim something without any proof seeming to sound intelligent by throwing out all sorts of unsubstantiated opinion-facts. Parse damage taken and damage output /nin and /war and see if you're actually right, oh and uh, use a hagun or a soboro. Also, you should make sure you keep the stats of other damage dealers available so that we know you don't purposely throw things or make up the data to keep your massive ego from imploding.

That's funny, I don't see any proof from your side.

What's stopping you from performing this experiment and parsing on your own to prove us wrong anyway?

Oh right, REALITY, forgot about that troublesome existence.

Man, I sure would love to visit a world where SAM/NIN beat SAM/WAR on a non-shitty party though, I really do.

[RKenshin]

Tell you what, I'll give you a public apology if you parse it and prove everything you've said.

Too bad this isn't about you making a public apology and it never was or had anything to do with it, but at this point sure why not. That'd be nice after you attempted to make this personal unprovoked. If you can't engage in a civil debate and keep it civil, why even bother?

It's basically just more of the same, you claim something without any proof seeming to sound intelligent by throwing out all sorts of unsubstantiated opinion-facts.

See now, this is basically more of the same crap you throw around assuming I'm here making things up.

I don't know about you, but last I checked I have a history of what would probably be regarded as 'informative' posts in regards to SAM tanking, SAM damage dealing capabilities, and SAM efficiency in just about all aspects of the game not only on this forum but also on KI and Allah. And don't give me any of this 'you have no evidence' bullshit when it basically translates into, 'I'm too lazy to spend 5 minutes to look up the evidence.' Especially considering the fact that I post a large amount of it right on my damn LJ that's linked in my sig.

Regardless. So tell me, who's the one that 'claims something without any proof seeming to sound intelligent by throwing out all sorts of unsubstantiated opinions-facts' again? I bet 9/10 people you ask that thread through this whole post would say you. I hate to break it to you but I don't recall you ever posting any amounts of significant information regarding SAM, making a SAM guide, or explaining anything as to the specifics of how you play SAM, or any parses. How about for fun you take 5 minutes and search back to the farthest "SAM Using Haste?" post you can find on the KI forum from ~2 years ago, where I'm arguing against a good portion of the SAM community over the idea that a max haste + 6-hit build is the highest damage potential for SAM gear. Many people were skeptical/laughed at it then despite providing explanations and reasoning, and now a decent SAM wouldn't be caught doing otherwise. Funny, I don't remember seeing your name provide any kind of evidence/proof of something major with SAM... Ever. So I think the issue of credibility here leans a little more in my favor, whether or not you seem to realize it. You're the one that should be posting proof here if anything. Not me.

Parse damage taken and damage output /nin and /war and see if you're actually right, oh and uh, use a hagun or a soboro.

What is there to be wrong about? You seriously think that /WAR won't be a good deal more damage? And why on earth would using Amanomurakumo even be a factor? That's just a ridiculous requirement, because if anything Amano makes me tank more, and if anything your argument is in favor of /NIN doing better when you tank more... So why would you even recommend I use something other than Amano?

And, I don't even need to run a parse for this. I have the records already somewhere in my shitfest of screen shots, but honestly I don't even care to prove anything to you when you're too lazy to provide your own evidence in the first place. Not to mention the fact you're too lazy to even look for the evidence I've posted already in countless threads/updates/etc in the past. I've wasted enough time arguing with you over simple things you can't even spend a few minutes researching, I'll be damned if I really take the time to go through what is currently 3466 screen shots since my last real update for someone who can't even help themself.

Also, you should make sure you keep the stats of other damage dealers available so that we know you don't purposely throw things or make up the data to keep your massive ego from imploding.

Wow, only person with the massive ego here is you buddy.

Every single parse I ever post, I post the entire parse. I don't make up numbers and just be like "oh yeah, so... just got out of a PT with a WAR and did 99% of the damage, no parse pic though sorry." I never have, and never will. Any time I have something reasonably important to prove, I post the actual parse/numbers/results and always have. If anything you're the one here that needs to prove their credibility.

Get over yourself man, seriously. No one here has to prove anything to you when you can't even provide proof or do your own research. And you insulting me over your own lack of this knowledge is to say the least, extremely aggravating.

[Ryko]

It's rather silly to state that Ruke of all people doesn't back up his statements with evidence or data, most of his posts are so chock full of it it tends to fall into the tl;dr category unless you're genuinely interested in the answer.... I ain't on his nuts though.