Samurai SJ

[Yutuyu]

I tested things out tonight myself, turns out you were 100% right, since the most recent patch attack really does actually have a noticable effect now. Berserk's showing some real nice numbers, I didn't see anything like this in the past.

Anyway, I was wrong, sorry for being blatantly incorrect and stupid about it.

[RKenshin]

I tested things out tonight myself, turns out you were 100% right, since the most recent patch attack really does actually have a noticable effect now. Berserk's showing some real nice numbers, I didn't see anything like this in the past.

Anyway, I was wrong, sorry for being blatantly incorrect and stupid about it.

Well, what can I say. People make mistakes, it's all good.

And, again, I've been up for something retarded like 35 hours with 18 of them spent on the most shitastic project, so I'm not exactly in nice mode... Sorry as well if I come off the wrong way/appear to have an attitude.

It's rather silly to state that Ruke of all people doesn't back up his statements with evidence or data, most of his posts are so chock full of it it tends to fall into the tl;dr category unless you're genuinely interested in the answer.... I ain't on his nuts though.

You once comforted me saying you read all my posts, and it was all a lie wasn't it.

And yeah, if anything I'm really bad at keeping my explanations short... I wonder what it'd be like if you could measure average post length.

[Ryko]

It's rather silly to state that Ruke of all people doesn't back up his statements with evidence or data, most of his posts are so chock full of it it tends to fall into the tl;dr category unless you're genuinely interested in the answer.... I ain't on his nuts though.

You once comforted me saying you read all my posts, and it was all a lie wasn't it.

I read the posts because I like forum whoring, lord knows I havent checked your LJ beyond when you got your D ring though. >_>

[Yutuyu]

I was excessively rude and insulting, I'm really sorry. I guess in the end at least I learned something. Thanks for that. Anyway... yeah, /war now.

[RKenshin]

Yeah, I stopped checking your LJ around the same time too.


EDIT: @, It's fine lol... I wasn't all sunshine and cupcakes with my attitude either (sorry <.<). And, I need a good argument every so often so, you did me a favor! Now I'll be good for another 3 months or so. Probably saved me from murdering team members too, although I'm still really upset at one of the idiots.

[Ryko]

Well played

[Zilong]

It's rather silly to state that Ruke of all people doesn't back up his statements with evidence or data, most of his posts are so chock full of it it tends to fall into the tl;dr category unless you're genuinely interested in the answer.... I ain't on his nuts though.

You once comforted me saying you read all my posts, and it was all a lie wasn't it.

I read the posts because I like forum whoring, lord knows I havent checked your LJ beyond when you got your D ring though. >_>

STOP TALKING TO YOURSELVES

[Baha]

Actually meritted with a SAM friend who subbed NIN once, and WAR another time over the past few days. Since I was testing my new shiny, I parsed the pt's. Guess it's not needed to look through them anymore. ;p

Nothing like a nice discussion thread to refresh every ten minutes or so to keep you up and awake.

[Max™]

It's rather silly to state that Ruke of all people doesn't back up his statements with evidence or data, most of his posts are so chock full of it it tends to fall into the tl;dr category unless you're genuinely interested in the answer.... I ain't on his nuts though.

You once comforted me saying you read all my posts, and it was all a lie wasn't it.

I read the posts because I like forum whoring, lord knows I havent checked your LJ beyond when you got your D ring though. >_>

STOP TALKING TO YOURSELVES

Amen.

That shit is driving me nuts.

Wonder how long it takes to log from account to account and type witty retorts back and forth.

[Ryko]

Man we're nothing alike. He's a ninja, I'm a paladin. He's a SAM, I'm a DRK. Night and day, totally different.

[Churchill]

What if I'm an un/in-famous NIN and DRK. What do I get.

[Ryko]

Apparently some koga tekko.

[Churchill]

Apparently some koga tekko.

http://img462.imageshack.us/img462/3...gatekkopm4.png
Touché

[Amele]

so, topic is already dead but I felt like doing some math anyway, since I wanted to contribute but no one objected to my comments about sam/nin with soboro being situationally better. D:

ITT2007: Berserk sucks.

This is probably more useful for non war//sam jobs, since they actually have to choose between hasso and berserk/double attack. but the discussion is relevant to samurai as well (when approached from the perspective of actually facilitating the use of hasso as your default stance)

since attack boosts are linear above ~1.2 cRatio, we can actually make this comparison (haste vs berserk)

to simplify things I'm going to assume capped fstr and I'll ignore the damage boost from 10 str on weaponskill for the hasso side. to balance this, I'll ignore the time delay accrued from the occasional ni recast. (figuring one recast per minute)

25% boost 60% of the time will give you a cRatio boost of 15% averaged out over time. your weaponskills will show a similar overall mix of berserk vs. unberserk, and will also gain a proportional boost.

ok, assumptions:
1) cRatio cap is in the area of 2.5
2) mob is approximately 8 levels higher (lvl 83)
3) your non berserk cRatio doesn't exceed ~1.9 (because if it did, you would see diminshing returns from increasing your attack by 25%; this is a 'att/def' of approximately 2.3 which is something like 750 attack at 75)

to match a 15% dot boost with 10% haste, you would need to have approximately 24% haste before hasso. (1-x / 1-(10+x) = 1.15 )

considering march I + haste is 24%, berserk will generally speaking be a dog to hasso.


add in double attack and /war still wins overall, unless you're using a soboro.

(obviously, the best of both worlds is hasso and berserk, but if you feel you can't reliably use both together, then I would prefer hasso with soboro.)

with hagun I'd probably prefer 10% double attack and berserk. (to outperform both you'd need.. some silly amount of haste... like 52% before hasso, which is in the area of double march + haste + 17% gear haste; )

tl;dr - with very moderate haste, hasso can outperform berserk or double attack (but not both) with lots of haste, hasso can outperform berserk *and* double attack.

[Resin]

Man we're nothing alike. He's a ninja, I'm a paladin. He's a SAM, I'm a DRK. Night and day, totally different.

Yeah, but you're the one that has relic GK so it confuses people. >.>



I'm going to be stubborn though, and say that I still take a hell of a lot less damage /nin in merit at Mamools (yes, I don't care that I'm beating a dead horse). Enough so that the difference between shadows and Seigan/Third Eye is huge. Maybe I need a better damage reduction armor set to swap in for /war or something, I don't know. Or merit with better DDs. Or better mages.

[Saraphym]

so, topic is already dead but I felt like doing some math anyway, since I wanted to contribute but no one objected to my comments about sam/nin with soboro being situationally better. D:



(obviously, the best of both worlds is hasso and berserk, but if you feel you can't reliably use both together, then I would prefer hasso with soboro.)

If you say yourself the best is hasso and berserk, the only situation in which sam/nin with soboro would be situationally better is if a sam/war is for some reason unable to use both berserk/hasso. The point the pro sam/war people were making was that they always subbed /war and utilized both hasso/berserk, while making up for utsu with seigan/third eye. (This is assuming we're talking about merit pts).

So basically the arguement was never that sam/nin with soboro/hasso on can't keep up or outdo sam/war not using berserk, but about which SJ yielded best dmg output to dmg taken ratio. The main argument of /nin vs /war is not which SJ gives best dmg (it will always be /war) but which SJ gives the best dmg while not becoming a burden via mp sponge. Therefore the real comparison shouldn't be between berserk/hasso, but seigan/third eye vs utsu, which is, surprise surprise, situational.

[Resin]

so, topic is already dead but I felt like doing some math anyway, since I wanted to contribute but no one objected to my comments about sam/nin with soboro being situationally better. D:



(obviously, the best of both worlds is hasso and berserk, but if you feel you can't reliably use both together, then I would prefer hasso with soboro.)

If you say yourself the best is hasso and berserk, the only situation in which sam/nin with soboro would be situationally better is if a sam/war is for some reason unable to use both berserk/hasso. The point the pro sam/war people were making was that they always subbed /war and utilized both hasso/berserk, while making up for utsu with seigan/third eye. (This is assuming we're talking about merit pts).

So basically the arguement was never that sam/nin with soboro/hasso on can't keep up or outdo sam/war not using berserk, but about which SJ yielded best dmg output to dmg taken ratio. The main argument of /nin vs /war is not which SJ gives best dmg (it will always be /war) but which SJ gives the best dmg while not becoming a burden via mp sponge. Therefore the real comparison shouldn't be between berserk/hasso, but seigan/third eye vs utsu, which is, surprise surprise, situational.

I don't know about you, but if I /WAR, Seigan is up full-time, pretty much.

[Zilong]

Man we're nothing alike. He's a ninja, I'm a paladin. He's a SAM, I'm a DRK. Night and day, totally different.

Which one of you is the black guy with relic again?

[Saraphym]

I don't know about you, but if I /WAR, Seigan is up full-time, pretty much.

That just means everyone else in the PT is really slacking and not pulling enough hate. In any burn pt the idea is to bounce the hate. The only reason you'd have Seigan up full-time is if you have hate the whole duration of the fight, which most likely means 1) your pt's dds suck hard 2) you're voking and warcrying trying to take hate for god knows why. 3) you're not very good at timing seigan/hasso together.


Usually I have a war/nin or nin/war at least who vokes on engaging, then I mostly keep hasso up and time my ws. Either the pt all use ws so mob dies, so hate afterward is not a problem, or if I ws and I know im going to be tanking for the next few rounds after, I just use ws, take 1 hit or none, seigan/third eye, tank for a bit or until hate bounces off, then switch hasso back on, repeat. Seigan and Hasso are both on incredibly short timer, it's really not hard to juggle them. I've been managing as /war changing between hasso and seigan just fine.

[Resin]

That just means everyone else in the PT is really slacking and not pulling enough hate. In any burn pt the idea is to bounce the hate. The only reason you'd have Seigan up full-time is if you have hate the whole duration of the fight, which most likely means 1) your pt's dds suck hard 2) you're voking and warcrying trying to take hate for god knows why. 3) you're not very good at timing seigan/hasso together.

I guess that's it, then. I don't usually merit with uber heavy DDs, and I am usually tanking the whole fight (no Voke or Warcry involved).