Samurai SJ

[Amele]

right; but honestly, unless I'm in a party with multiple sam/war or war/sam seigan is up pretty much all the time on sam/war.

and even with multiple sam/war, it's generally prudent to keep seigan up for significant amounts of time; so the comparison is still valid.

my comment (about hasso+berserk) was a reference to the entitlement of sam/war and war/sam (that is, what they could do if God ran the exp party.)

[Talisien]

If you say yourself the best is hasso and berserk, the only situation in which sam/nin with soboro would be situationally better is if a sam/war is for some reason unable to use both berserk/hasso. The point the pro sam/war people were making was that they always subbed /war and utilized both hasso/berserk, while making up for utsu with seigan/third eye. (This is assuming we\'re talking about merit pts).

Ruke spent the *entire* thread arguing full time Seigan was the only way to play Sam/War without becoming a complete sponge.

[Saraphym]

Seriously, it baffles me people can't grasp the concept of using hasso and seigan in conjunction with each other.

[Resin]

Seriously, it baffles me people can't grasp the concept of using hasso and seigan in conjunction with each other.

Seriously, it baffles me people can't grasp the concept of not being able to use Hasso because I pull so much hate Seigan has to be up full-time.

[Zilong]

Seriously, it baffles me people can't grasp the concept of using hasso and seigan in conjunction with each other.

Seriously, it baffles me people can't grasp the concept of not being able to use Hasso because I pull so much hate Seigan has to be up full-time.

Not all of us have awesome SAM :/

But yeah, if you're any decent on SAM, dropping seigan isn't worth it unless you have backline that can handle you sponging.

That and popping hasso while berserked...creates amazing number on both your and the mob's WS.

[Resin]

Seriously, it baffles me people can't grasp the concept of using hasso and seigan in conjunction with each other.

Seriously, it baffles me people can't grasp the concept of not being able to use Hasso because I pull so much hate Seigan has to be up full-time.

Not all of us have awesome SAM :/

But yeah, if you're any decent on SAM, dropping seigan isn't worth it unless you have backline that can handle you sponging.

That and popping hasso while berserked...creates amazing number on both your and the mob's WS.

Yeah, sorry. I didn't mean for that to come off as arrogant as it did.

If I'm /WAR, I'll only Hasso if Seigan recast timer is up and the mob's gonna die.

[RKenshin]

Ruke spent the *entire* thread arguing full time Seigan was the only way to play Sam/War without becoming a complete sponge.

Orly?

And man, the sad part is I never even have to use Hasso full time in most of the better PTs. But I'll give you the '100% Seigan SAM/WAR onry' just because it's too complex to define further.

If you're going to try to make assumptions on what my real points are, you're going to have to read everything I write.

The only reason I kept it simple with SAM/WAR using Seigan full time vs SAM/NIN is because it's too difficult to compare otherwise. I sure don't feel like figuring out anymore than I have to with all the debating in between time.

I use Hasso a good amount of the time depending on the situation, and 100% Seigan certainly isn't the only way SAM/WAR works. But for the sake of keeping this argument more simple, I was just comparing a 100% Seigan SAM/WAR. Since if you haven't picked up on it, the arguments earlier were primarily about reducing damage to managable levels, and less about the damage delt factor.

so, topic is already dead but I felt like doing some math anyway, since I wanted to contribute but no one objected to my comments about sam/nin with soboro being situationally better. D:

Those were good numbers but there is also one rather important factor that I feel has to be included.

Keeping shadows up is a huge killer of your potential number of swings/WS throughout the duration of a PT. This especially applies to recasting shadows often enough to warrent the use of /SAM, because well, if you're only recasting shadows once every 1-2 fights then it's kind of a waste sub. Recasting shadows as is without a Hasso/Seigan penalty can hurt your total damage output by a good 10-25% depending on the PT and how much tanking you do, but let's just assume that you're in the worst situation where you're doing most of the tanking. But, that 10-25% is the number I've got from WAR/NIN and MNK/NIN PTs with LS members where there's no double casting time, and if you're using Hasso full-time that penalty will only be worse.

So in reality the amount of Haste you're getting from Hasso full-time while still maintaining shadows is a lot less than 10%, because while the 10% helps you gain swings... The amount of time you spend casting is reducing the swings by a considerable amount.

[Talisien]

Because seriously, if you want to make SAM/WAR work you can make it work, for arguably any situation. You just keep Seigan on full time, use good timing with Third Eye, and if you can you get some defense gear. That\'s it, there\'s no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

...

What the hell lol... Seriously.

What part of \'SAM/WAR using Seigan full-time\' includes using Hasso?

*shrug* If I misread it, my apologies, but that\'s how I read it.

[Saraphym]

Seriously, it baffles me people can't grasp the concept of using hasso and seigan in conjunction with each other.

Seriously, it baffles me people can't grasp the concept of not being able to use Hasso because I pull so much hate Seigan has to be up full-time.

OK

keep seigan on full-time then or sub nin. Obviously theres no other solution for you. You just pull too much goddamn hate because your SAM/WAR is an unparalleled raging hate machine, correct? Theres no other explanation if your burn pt has you tanking 100% of the time, which is the case, otherwise why would you have seigan on full time....right?

[RKenshin]

*shrug* If I misread it, my apologies, but that\'s how I read it.

Sorry if it was unclear but that was all addressing the whole 'SAM/WAR can't work no matter what, it's always a sponge' part of the argument. Not the viability of the SJ in general.
__________________________________________________

Decided to do some quick math about the shadow recasting stuff I was talking about in my last post.

Ok, an ideal situation for a pretty decked (since only a decked one would /NIN often I'd think) out SAM would be 20% haste from gear/15% haste spell/11% march. Combined with Hasso it comes to a total of 56% haste. Now with a 450 delay GK, this would reduce the delay to 198, which is approximately one swing every ~3 seconds.

With the casting time penalty included, every time you cast Ni you're losing about 1 swing, and every time you cast Ichi you're losing about 2 swings. For the sake of this argument let's also assume it's a decent PT where mobs are being pulled non-stop a majority of the time, so even casting after a fight will hurt your number of swings (as opposed to engaging/attacking right away).

Now if we assume you only cast Ni or Ichi once every 30 seconds on average through out the PT, which is pretty casual tanking, you're losing about 1.5 swings per 30 seconds. Main tanking a PT you'd probably go through a higher amount of shadows/30 seconds, but for simplicity sake let's keep it at one cast/30 seconds with both used equally.

The same SAM without the use of Hasso would have 46% haste, for 243 delay, or 7.4 swings per 30 seconds. The SAM/NIN would get in 9.1 swings per 30 seconds. However subtracting away the 1.5, you're left with 7.6 swings per 30 seconds.

So all in all in that situation above, a full-time Seigan SAM/WAR vs a SAM/NIN using Hasso full-time and recasting shadows once every 30 seconds on average, gains just about no Haste bonus vs the SAM/WAR to their overall number of attacks over the duration of the PT. I'd imagine this situation would only be worse for a Soboro SAM since averaging 2 swings a round, Ni now costs you ~2 swings on average and Ichi now costs you ~4 swings on average.

[Aireiya]

Seriously, it baffles me people can't grasp the concept of using hasso and seigan in conjunction with each other.

Seriously, it baffles me people can't grasp the concept of not being able to use Hasso because I pull so much hate Seigan has to be up full-time.

OK

keep seigan on full-time then or sub nin. Obviously theres no other solution for you. You just pull too much goddamn hate because your SAM/WAR is an unparalleled raging hate machine, correct? Theres no other explanation if your burn pt has you tanking 100% of the time, which is the case, otherwise why would you have seigan on full time....right?

I read this as "I party with ls mates who are able to bounce hate and kill the mob before I get murdered."

As someone who does exclusively pickup pt's, I agree with Res. If you're a soboro SAM in a pt with a nin, domaru/thf sam, and dual axe af1 sporting War (which is a fair approximation of most pickup pt's), seigan full-time is a necessity. With soboro and /war, best damage output is wsing as soon as I can after I hit 100tp. Given that I need to have Seigan and Third Eye up before I WS, and that I get to 100tp really really fast, there is no time to switch between Hasso and Seigan.

And yes, these days meripo on sam/war basically means tanking full-time, at least in my experience.

[Saraphym]

As someone who does exclusively pickup pt's, I agree with Res. If you're a soboro SAM in a pt with a nin, domaru/thf sam, and dual axe af1 sporting War (which is a fair approximation of most pickup pt's), seigan full-time is a necessity. With soboro and /war, best damage output is wsing as soon as I can after I hit 100tp. Given that I need to have Seigan and Third Eye up before I WS, and that I get to 100tp really really fast, there is no time to switch between Hasso and Seigan.

And yes, these days meripo on sam/war basically means tanking full-time, at least in my experience.

ok, you got me. If you're meriting with the likes of that I don't know what to say.


btw, I don't pt with ls mates exclusively at all and have been in very competent pickup merit pts (this is on pandy btw, I don't know how the situation is and im guessin the quality of merit pickups vary by server). And even if I did end up in a PT similar to that, I'd leave asap.

[Talisien]

Ruke does lots of math

I\'ve never been in an infinite chain pt before, but I just ding\'d 75 last night and maybe I\'ll start to feel the pinch. Up till now I just recast Ni as the puller is out getting another imp

I can imagine all the workings of optimization get a lot different when every single DD in the party is good, instead of the typical pts I\'m in, where 1 or maybe 2 of us are good, and the rest are domaru sporting winners.

[RKenshin]

Grats on 75! lol

I don't know but even most of the pickup PTs I join can usually keep a rather consistant stream of mobs going now. Of course it isn't a non-stop/infinite/never ending stream, but it averages out to about that. I mean even some of the crappier pickup PTs I've been in can usually get chain 20-50+s consistantly as long as there is a puller, and you can't really get high chains without a constant influx of mobs.

Albeit, if there's no puller then it's a completely different story. All the worst PTs I've ever been in tend to be the ones with no one pulling, even if it's just a lazy BRD.

There's no question about maintaining a near-infinite income of mobs in an above average PT though, but that's usually more because of camping on top of them all (like, in the middle of Mamool Staging point) and/or having multiple pullers (2 BRDs) lol.

[Amele]

Decided to do some quick math about the shadow recasting stuff I was talking about in my last post.

Ok, an ideal situation for a pretty decked (since only a decked one would /NIN often I'd think) out SAM would be 20% haste from gear/15% haste spell/11% march. Combined with Hasso it comes to a total of 56% haste. Now with a 450 delay GK, this would reduce the delay to 198, which is approximately one swing every ~3 seconds.

With the casting time penalty included, every time you cast Ni you're losing about 1 swing, and every time you cast Ichi you're losing about 2 swings. For the sake of this argument let's also assume it's a decent PT where mobs are being pulled non-stop a majority of the time, so even casting after a fight will hurt your number of swings (as opposed to engaging/attacking right away).

Now if we assume you only cast Ni or Ichi once every 30 seconds on average through out the PT, which is pretty casual tanking, you're losing about 1.5 swings per 30 seconds. Main tanking a PT you'd probably go through a higher amount of shadows/30 seconds, but for simplicity sake let's keep it at one cast/30 seconds with both used equally.

The same SAM without the use of Hasso would have 46% haste, for 243 delay, or 7.4 swings per 30 seconds. The SAM/NIN would get in 9.1 swings per 30 seconds. However subtracting away the 1.5, you're left with 7.6 swings per 30 seconds.

So all in all in that situation above, a full-time Seigan SAM/WAR vs a SAM/NIN using Hasso full-time and recasting shadows once every 30 seconds on average, gains just about no Haste bonus vs the SAM/WAR to their overall number of attacks over the duration of the PT. I'd imagine this situation would only be worse for a Soboro SAM since averaging 2 swings a round, Ni now costs you ~2 swings on average and Ichi now costs you ~4 swings on average.

yeah, I agree with those numbers (I was using a more conservative set when I was sandboxing the numbers and trying to figure out how complicated to make my post; assuming both that you were just above the inflection point on haste vs. berserk and were only needing :ni, so about 0.5 swings a minute, if you give even a 6 second lag on recasts (to 36 seconds) the sam in your example could go :ni only, losing an average of ~.8 swings/30s instead of 1.5 - for a net gain of almost 2 swings a minute. )

incidentally, on average the extra 10STR is going to give you about 4-5 more damage per swing (assuming you don't bump into an fstr cap; which admittedly is something that can happen with at least soboro) which will average out to ~30-40 extra damage on regular per 30 seconds. this makes up a little bit for the missed swings, but not enough to really overcome the time lost. (most samurai are hitting for at least double that in high cRatio situations.)

==
ultimately, I think it comes down to safety - sam/nin is a safer sub, period. it's not really a better damage sub (especially not in potential) but it's similar to the reasons that a monk would go mnk/nin instead of mnk/war. outside of tanking situations, I don't know any monks who actually prefer /nin - they use it to help prevent sponging and to reduce their spike hate a little.

it has a similar effect for sam, although sam can change their mainjob style a little bit close the gap somewhat more readily than monk can, so I think it's become pretty seductive to most sams for the same reasons it's seductive to alot of monks.

[RKenshin]

Well, with a recast on ni of ~36 seconds with the Hasso penalty and 46% haste applied... You can't get it up every 30 seconds. So, in effect, if you're only using Ni you would be getting less than 3 shadows per 30 seconds on average, and just face tanking until it's ready again.

If you only use Ni and refuse to use Ichi in the above situation, in a high end PT pulling at a reasonable rate, you're better off subbing WAR and using Third Eye... Because you can get about 3-5 anticipates on average per 30 seconds (without going into the chance to counter and getting additional damage) when used correctly versus the less than 3 shadows absorbed per 30 seconds if you're only using Ni.

So really if you're only using Ni but using Hasso full-time in a good PT, why /NIN? lol. It's not only less damage, but it's not much of an effective way of avoiding damage.

[Zilong]

it has a similar effect for sam, although sam can change their mainjob style a little bit close the gap somewhat more readily than monk can, so I think it's become pretty seductive to most sams for the same reasons it's seductive to alot of monks.

The thing is, SAM has natural damage mitigation in the form of Seigan + TE, while the closest thing MNK have to that is counterstance, and while counter works as damage mitigation, it also destroys their defense and unlucky streak or WS will easily undo the whole damage mitigation's intent.

MNK/NIN gives them a damage mitigation option that won't end up biting them in the ass, SAM/NIN in the other hand is just a fucking overboard on the whole damage mitigation deal, simply because seigan should be a sufficient method of damage mitigation. You're basically sacrificing berserk, DA, and some random stats to be able to use hasso on a shitty party.

And if you happen to be in a party that actually allow you to use hasso rather often as SAM/WAR...

[Resin]

As someone who does exclusively pickup pt's, I agree with Res. If you're a soboro SAM in a pt with a nin, domaru/thf sam, and dual axe af1 sporting War (which is a fair approximation of most pickup pt's), seigan full-time is a necessity. With soboro and /war, best damage output is wsing as soon as I can after I hit 100tp. Given that I need to have Seigan and Third Eye up before I WS, and that I get to 100tp really really fast, there is no time to switch between Hasso and Seigan.

And yes, these days meripo on sam/war basically means tanking full-time, at least in my experience.

ok, you got me. If you're meriting with the likes of that I don't know what to say.


btw, I don't pt with ls mates exclusively at all and have been in very competent pickup merit pts (this is on pandy btw, I don't know how the situation is and im guessin the quality of merit pickups vary by server). And even if I did end up in a PT similar to that, I'd leave asap.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was getting at. If I was fortunate enough to have a pt with a fully merited ridill/adaberk WAR or relic MNK or whatever, it's a different story. I guess I'm just unrucky.

And if you ARE tanking full-time with /NIN, it works best without hasso or seigan up. With a single march and haste and typical haste gears, Ni recast is a hell of a lot lower than the 30 seconds I'd have with Third Eye.

What I mainly take from this whole thread is: "Support Job choice (in merit) is largely dictated by the supporting members of your party. The quality of the melee/mages have a direct impact on how much damage you can safely put out. ...But I guess that's applicable to every job and all types of situations.

[Whatinthe]

And if you happen to be in a party that actually allow you to use hasso rather often as SAM/WAR...

What kind of setup would allow you to hasso as SAM/WAR even 50%+ of the time. Seriously, I've partied with some decked out players and I can't think of a tank that could hold hate against a SAM/WAR going all out.

The closest I've seen was a SAM/NIN with 22% haste, basically had everything from Maat's Cap, Cerb Mantle+1, Dusk Gloves+1, to Speed Belt. He was ripping hate off the Speed Belt NIN like it was nothing, and the NIN was not slacking at all.

[RKenshin]

I've been in a few pickup PT setups that are pretty well-built for it. Anything with a 3 mage backline is usually more than enough to use Hasso a good portion of the time (like 50% ish or more). Usually this 3 mage back-line is some combo of RDMs/WHMs/BRDs. Or if you have both a RDM and a WHM they can support Hasso being used a good portion of the PT as well.

In top-of-the-line PTs you can usually use Hasso a good amount even with just a RDM+BRD as healers, just because mobs die so fast and MP isn't often an obstable in those types of PTs.

Then with a RDM or WHM PL, which isn't all too uncommon lately, you can use it often in just about any PT.