Large Hadron Collider...

[Krye]

more to the point: this isn't any different than any other large colliders that have been produced before - it's just *Bigger*.

The large hardons just keep getting bigger and bigger.

[Kaylia]

If we could destroy our universe like this, it would be gone already. Something somewhere would have destroyed it already (well, those theories generally propose that our universe is already in the process of getting destroyed). Destroying the Earth with miniblackhole or something? It seem unlikely, but who knows.

[Amele]

I wonder what "falling" into a black hole feels like.

it's entirely possible that your perception of time would 'stop' (meaning you'd experience eternity) depending on how long you kept consciousness as you approached the speed of light...

...assuming the acceleration didn't kill you; that is.

[Kaylia]

I wonder what "falling" into a black hole feels like.

it's entirely possible that your perception of time would 'stop' (meaning you'd experience eternity) depending on how long you kept consciousness as you approached the speed of light...

...assuming the acceleration didn't kill you; that is.

You will be spaghetified long time before you reach that part of the black hole where time is stopped.

[Amele]

I wonder what "falling" into a black hole feels like.

it's entirely possible that your perception of time would 'stop' (meaning you'd experience eternity) depending on how long you kept consciousness as you approached the speed of light...

...assuming the acceleration didn't kill you; that is.

You will be spaghetified long time before you reach that part of the black hole where time is stopped.

more or less; yes.

[Krye]

You will be spaghetified long time before you reach that part of the black hole where time is stopped.

Oh oh! Question!

I read a book a while back about humanity discovering alien technology that let them explore the universe.

A crew of people in two alien space ships get caught in the gravitational pull of a black hole and they attempt to blow up one of the ships to propel the other ship out of the pull and escape. Inside the ships are other smaller ships, and one of the guys accidentally sets them off, launching the ship that he is in free. So he escapes and the other crew is in the other big ship, still stuck in the black hole.

Later, the main character is talking to a psychiatrist and he explains that he feels overwhelming guilt about the situation because time slows down in a black hole, so although a century has passed for him, only moments have passed for the other crew and they must think that he betrayed him. So while he's going about his life, the people that he knew and loved are stuck in those initial moments.

Sorry about the poorly written tl;dr.

The question is, if they've reached a point where they're basically frozen in time, wouldn't people eventually invent a way to pull them out of the black hole? So they'd only be stuck for a second before being pulled out and introduced to a whole new wonderful universe?

EDIT: Assuming that the incomprehensible alien technology allows them to reach the time sink without being utterly destroyed.

[Quicklet]

Paraphrased from the black dude from Nova whom I saw on Conan one night, when he was asked what his favorite way to die would be...

"First your body gets stretched, to the point where the force of gravity at one end of your body is so much greater than the other end that your body snaps in half. Then, the same thing happens to the lower half of your body, breaking in half again, and the process repeats until your body is turned into a stream of particles that float into the black hole."

[Heian]

I hope something awful happens so I'll have something to watch on my new TV.

If something on the order of 'awful' happens, we'd all be gone pretty quick, and potentially so would our current universe

I seriously think this would be the best way for us to do ourselves in. War is so over rated and doesn't seem to work.

[Chicomagiko]

You will be spaghetified long time before you reach that part of the black hole where time is stopped.

Oh oh! Question!

I read a book a while back about humanity discovering alien technology that let them explore the universe.

A crew of people in two alien space ships get caught in the gravitational pull of a black hole and they attempt to blow up one of the ships to propel the other ship out of the pull and escape. Inside the ships are other smaller ships, and one of the guys accidentally sets them off, launching the ship that he is in free. So he escapes and the other crew is in the other big ship, still stuck in the black hole.

Later, the main character is talking to a psychiatrist and he explains that he feels overwhelming guilt about the situation because time slows down in a black hole, so although a century has passed for him, only moments have passed for the other crew and they must think that he betrayed him. So while he's going about his life, the people that he knew and loved are stuck in those initial moments.

Sorry about the poorly written tl;dr.

The question is, if they've reached a point where they're basically frozen in time, wouldn't people eventually invent a way to pull them out of the black hole? So they'd only be stuck for a second before being pulled out and introduced to a whole new wonderful universe?

EDIT: Assuming that the incomprehensible alien technology allows them to reach the time sink without being utterly destroyed.

Shit reminds me of Amdromeda. Sort of.

[Kaylia]

The question is, if they've reached a point where they're basically frozen in time, wouldn't people eventually invent a way to pull them out of the black hole? So they'd only be stuck for a second before being pulled out and introduced to a whole new wonderful universe?

EDIT: Assuming that the incomprehensible alien technology allows them to reach the time sink without being utterly destroyed.

They would indeed get utterly destroyed no matter how powerful their technology is, unless they are not made of matter (which is problematic for carbon life form). But if they did had that magical technology that allow them to go close and get pulled out of it, the time outside would have progressed between 1x to infinity times faster than it did from the perspective of the blackhole.


However, simply going at the speed of light or close to it would result in the same thing, and would be easier to accomplish, assuming you have the magical technology that allow you to break 1 or 2 physics laws.


Lamda = 1/sqrt(1-speed²/lightspeed²)
Lamda = time slow down factor
speed= your current speed
lightspeed = 300 000km/s

Spaghettification
An object in any very strong gravitational field feels a tidal force stretching it in the direction of the object generating the gravitational field. This is because the inverse square law causes nearer parts of the stretched object to feel a stronger attraction than farther parts. Near black holes, the tidal force is expected to be strong enough to deform any object falling into it, even atoms or composite nucleons; this is called spaghettification.

The strength of the tidal force depends on how gravitational attraction changes with distance, rather than on the absolute force being felt. This means that small black holes cause spaghettification while infalling objects are still outside their event horizons, whereas objects falling into large, supermassive black holes may not be deformed or otherwise feel excessively large forces before passing the event horizon.


Before the falling object crosses the event horizon
An object in a gravitational field experiences a slowing down of time, called gravitational time dilation, relative to observers outside the field. The observer will see that physical processes in the object, including clocks, appear to run slowly. As a test object approaches the event horizon, its gravitational time dilation (as measured by an observer far from the hole) would approach infinity.

From the viewpoint of a distant observer, an object falling into a black hole appears to slow down, approaching but never quite reaching the event horizon: and it appears to become redder and dimmer, because of the extreme gravitational red shift caused by the gravity of the black hole. Eventually, the falling object becomes so dim that it can no longer be seen, at a point just before it reaches the event horizon. All of this is a consequence of time dilation: the object's movement is one of the processes that appear to run slower and slower, and the time dilation effect is more significant than the acceleration due to gravity; the frequency of light from the object appears to decrease, making it look redder, because the light appears to complete fewer cycles per "tick" of the observer's clock; lower-frequency light has less energy and therefore appears dimmer.

From the viewpoint of the falling object, distant objects may appear either blue-shifted or red-shifted, depending on the falling object's trajectory. Light is blue-shifted by the gravity of the black hole, but is red-shifted by the velocity of the infalling object.


As the object passes through the event horizon
From the viewpoint of the falling object, nothing particularly special happens at the event horizon (apart from spaghettification due to tidal forces, if the black hole has relatively low mass). An infalling object takes a finite proper time to fall past the event horizon.

An outside observer, however, will never see an infalling object cross this surface. The object appears to halt just above the horizon, due to gravitational redshift, fading from view as its light is red-shifted and the rate at which it emits photons drops to approach zero. This doesn't mean that the object never crosses the horizon; instead, it means that light from the horizon-crossing event is delayed by a time that approaches infinity as the object approaches the horizon. The time of crossing depends on how the outside observer chooses to define space and time axes on spacetime near the horizon.


Inside the event horizon
The object reaches the singularity at the center within a finite amount of proper time, as measured by the falling object. An observer on the falling object would continue to see objects outside the event horizon, blue-shifted or red-shifted depending on the falling object's trajectory. Objects closer to the singularity aren't seen, as all paths light could take from objects farther in point inwards towards the singularity.

The amount of proper time a faller experiences below the event horizon depends upon where they started from rest, with the maximum being for someone who starts from rest at the event horizon. A study in 2007 examined the effect of firing a rocket pack with the black hole, showing that this can only reduce the proper time of a person who starts from rest at the event horizon. However, for anyone else, a judicial burst of the rocket can extend the life time of the faller, but over doing it will again reduce the proper time experienced. However, this cannot prevent the inevitable collision with the central singularity.[14]


Hitting the singularity
As an infalling object approaches the singularity, tidal forces acting on it approach infinity. All components of the object, including atoms and subatomic particles, are torn away from each other before striking the singularity. At the singularity itself, effects are unknown; a theory of quantum gravity is needed to accurately describe events near it. Regardless, as soon as an object passes within the hole's event horizon, it is lost to the outside universe. An observer far from the hole simply sees the hole's mass, charge, and angular momentum change to reflect the addition of the new object's matter. After the event horizon all is unknown. Anything that passes this point cannot be retrieved to study. Many people believe that the matter is extremely compacted. Stephen Hawking made a theory that the matter disappeared into the universe, defying the laws of physics. He later revised this theory to say that the disappearing matter was compensated by parallel universes without black holes, saying, in the end, the matter was not lost.

[Charla]

I dunno, I could imagine several ways to protect matter in the vicinity of a black hole. I was about to describe them when I remembered that someone already came up with some good examples

Gravity attracts the hull and its contents normally, but not even close approach to the event horizon of a black hole can damage the hull. However, the hull probably could not survive entering a black hole's singularity.

Known Space is fun.

[Kaylia]

I dunno, I could imagine several ways to protect matter in the vicinity of a black hole. I was about to describe them when I remembered that someone already came up with some good examples

Gravity attracts the hull and its contents normally, but not even close approach to the event horizon of a black hole can damage the hull. However, the hull probably could not survive entering a black hole's singularity.

Known Space is fun.

Were you serious or not, I can't tell? I would like to heard your several way to protect matter in the vicinity of a black hole

"Gravity attracts the hull and its contents normally, but not even close approach to the event horizon of a black hole can damage the hull."

Isn't that self contradicting in a way? If gravity works on its content, everything will be spaghetified...
Beside, the tidal force are stronger than electrical force, so again, the hull couldn't even survive the approach. Not to mention there is no possible way to make such "bubble" structure strong to anything on a large scales

[Charla]

I dunno, I could imagine several ways to protect matter in the vicinity of a black hole. I was about to describe them when I remembered that someone already came up with some good examples

Gravity attracts the hull and its contents normally, but not even close approach to the event horizon of a black hole can damage the hull. However, the hull probably could not survive entering a black hole's singularity.

Known Space is fun.

Were you serious or not, I can't tell? I would like to heard your several way to protect matter in the vicinity of a black hole

"Gravity attracts the hull and its contents normally, but not even close approach to the event horizon of a black hole can damage the hull."

Isn't that self contradicting in a way? If gravity works on its content, everything will be spaghetified...
Beside, the tidal force are stronger than electrical force, so again, the hull couldn't even survive the approach. Not to mention there is no possible way to make such "bubble" structure strong to anything on a large scales

Well, most of my ideas relied on the fact that both gravity and spacetime are poorly understood, and that future discoveries could reveal ways to manipulate gravitons themselves, or create regions of non-space to exclude them. A simple field of something capable of redirecting gravitons could then protect its contents from an arbitrary magnitude of gravity. Alternatively, pockets of artificial spacetime would naturally be immune to gravitation from outside matter.

As for the GP hull, it appears that a different article mentions that they are not immune to tidal forces. Maybe Niven is contradicting himself again or something. In any case, that means the integrated stasis field would be necessary to survive approaching an event horizon.

edit: Sorry, looks like I didn't read the whole thing.

[Kaylia]

Well, most of my ideas relied on the fact that both gravity and spacetime are poorly understood, and that future discoveries could reveal ways to manipulate gravitons themselves, or create regions of non-space to exclude them. A simple field of something capable of redirecting gravitons could then protect its contents from an arbitrary magnitude of gravity. Alternatively, pockets of artificial spacetime would naturally be immune to gravitation from outside matter.

Understanding isn't a synonym of controlling. Graviton is still a theorical particles, but considering how thing works in our universe, there is no indication that tell us we will ever be able to break the link that bind it to the matter to create artificial "graviton field". Not to mention creating gravitational field with weird shape kinda goes against what we observed.

Are "space time" pocket imune to gravitation? I don't think so. One black hole can destroy another, and what you're trying to do isn't very different. Your space time pocket would be affected and distorted by gravity, because the force of both field would add to each other.

[Charla]

Understanding isn't a synonym of controlling. Graviton is still a theorical particles, but considering how thing works in our universe, there is no indication that tell us we will ever be able to break the link that bind it to the matter to create artificial "graviton field". Not to mention creating gravitational field with weird shape kinda goes against what we observed.

Are "space time" pocket imune to gravitation? I don't think so. One black hole can destroy another, and what you're trying to do isn't very different. Your space time pocket would be affected and distorted by gravity, because the force of both field would add to each other.

My point was that because we don't understand it, there's no way to know whether or not it will be possible to break the link generated by a graviton. As such, speculating either way is valid. Likewise, I see no reason why gravity either would or would not work across a spatial discontinuity, and it's impossible to know at this point because a spatial discontinuity has never been observed.

Remember, I'm imagining these things in the first place.

[Priran]

As for the GP hull, on closer inspection the description apparently only means that the hull itself would be undamaged by tidal forces

GP hulls are not impervious to tidal forces because the [things that make them] have no experience of tides.

[Kaylia]

Again, just because we don't understand everything doesn't mean every theories are as likely to become true. Our science evolved based on what we know already, and what you're proposing is already breaking certain established laws.

If a mass like Earth can generate X amount of gravitons, what kind of energy do you think would be needed to accomplish anything like this? Check the accelerator particles in the OP and look at the size of those things. Worst part is that they do literally nothing, just detect some particles. Also, graviton as far as I can understand have no mass and can't interact with other energy...so I'm kinda curious to hear how you plan to manipulate them.

The day you will manage to fit an Earth in your backpack, and plug your USB cable directly in the sun's core, we will talk about those "ideas" again. Until then, it will remain fiction that make as much sense as dragons and fairies.

[Charla]

Again, just because we don't understand everything doesn't mean every theories are as likely to become true. Our science evolved based on what we know already, and what you're proposing is already breaking certain established laws.

If a mass like Earth can generate X amount of gravitons, what kind of energy do you think would be needed to accomplish anything like this? Check the accelerator particles in the OP and look at the size of those things. Worst part is that they do literally nothing, just detect some particles. Also, graviton as far as I can understand have no mass and can't interact with other energy...so I'm kinda curious to hear how you plan to manipulate them.

The day you will manage to fit an Earth in your backpack, and plug your USB cable directly in the sun's core, we will talk about those "ideas" again. Until then, it will remain fiction that make as much sense as dragons and fairies.

While I wouldn't doubt that postulating a mechanism of manipulating gravity would contradict established physical laws, what I did was merely speculate on what such a system would be capable of. I don't believe that contradicts anything. As you said, this speculation is only science fiction, and as long as it hasn't been proven impossible, it's valid as fiction.

Incidentally, I also see no compelling reason why pocket dimensions capable of holding terrestrial planets or power transmission systems that directly tap the output of a star's core would be impossible. There's no reason to connect a USB cable to a power supply, however. Likewise, it's perfectly reasonable to assume genetic engineering will someday be able to create a large flying lizard which fits the description of a mundane dragon, or something similar to the description of a fairy (albeit a modest interpretation of both definitions).

[Amele]

starlifting is in humanity's future! (assuming we don't destroy ourselves first)

[-Zer0-]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...iggs-event.jpg