JP Ridill Talk. Need translation

[Chupunpupun]

I'm having a Ridill discussion with my JP friend and he's telling me the JPs found that DA actually increases the average swing of Ridill but from the test SearainGaruda did, it shows that DA decreases the average swing of Ridill (using expected value). So he linked me to the JP site but it's all jibbish to me and they don't show you the percentages they used to compute the average swing for Ridill. I was able to work out the average swings for Joyeuse because it was 50/50.

So can someone translate the page so we can have a better understanding of how the JPs came to the conclusion that DA helps ridill instead of hurting it.

http://ffxiwar.blog91.fc2.com/blog-entry-46.html#more

[Lyramion]

This is the table you looking for:

?? ? ?????? ????? ????? ????? 
?:        1???       1.1      1.15    1.20 
????    1.5???     1.55    1.575   1.6 
?????  1.9???      1.91    1.915   1.92 
???? ?  3.2???     3.08    3.02    2.96

Translates to...

Weapon?  Average Attacks   ????? ????? ????? 
Normal (Axe?):     1              1.1      1.15    1.20 
Joyuse? ?         1.5            1.55    1.575   1.6 
Ridill ?         1.9              1.91    1.915   1.92 
Kraken ?          3.2              3.08    3.02    2.96

So yeah according to this DA totally does boost Ridill while hurting Kraken. But it also says the average attacks of a Ridill are 1.9 without any DA and not 2 like I had guessed. I have no clue whats behind their math.

[Retrieving/C.D/Searain]

If the almighty JP's are saying it, then it must be true.

[VZX]

If the almighty JP's are saying it, then it must be true.

didn't your data telling the same?

[Retrieving/C.D/Searain]

I don't think it was, I don't speak japanese either though so who knows.

I've grown up as a player on a server that used to be dominated by japanese players and they were generally (albeit mistakenly) considered "superior" to any NA/EU counterpart, hence my sarcasm.

[Ambir]

Isn't it logical that if the average swings/round is <2 the DA helps, and if it's >2 then DA hurts?

[Zalius]

I don't think it was, I don't speak japanese either though so who knows.

I've grown up as a player on a server that used to be dominated by japanese players and they were generally (albeit mistakenly) considered "superior" to any NA/EU counterpart, hence my sarcasm.

yeah, if you were on a dense jp server youve learned to hate them, aka claiming mobs that nobody needs drops from to keep the NAs from getting them

[Atlasion]

Damnit. I read the first post thinking that being in Dragon's Aery increases Ridill swings. I'm disappointed now.

[Chupunpupun]

If the almighty JP's are saying it, then it must be true.

Sorry you misunderstood me, I believe in your data cause the JP didn't bother to put their computation on that page.

According to your test:
DA10% = 27% single attacks, 53% double attacks, 20% which makes the expected value to be:

1(27%) + 2(53%) + 3(20%) = 1.93

DA10% + earring + AF1 + AF2 = 25% single attacks, 60% double attacks, 15% triple attacks, e(x):

1(25%) + 2(60%) + 3(15%) = 1.90

Which clearly shows that DA is hurting Ridill. I wanted to know if that page have any info on how they got Ridill without DA = 1.90.

[Retrieving/C.D/Searain]

Anyhow, no, during my tests the Avg. attacks were like:

DA 10%   DA 17% (circa could've been higher depending on how much DA AFv1 boots and AFv2 pants give)

  1.93      1.9

EDIT: bah Chupu anticipated me lol.

[pogle]

I need to get more sleep...I was reading the OP as being in Dragon Aery would increase Ridill procs...

[Norellicus]

This is the table you looking for:

?? ? ?????? ????? ????? ????? 
?:        1???       1.1      1.15    1.20 
????    1.5???     1.55    1.575   1.6 
?????  1.9???      1.91    1.915   1.92 
???? ?  3.2???     3.08    3.02    2.96

Translates to...

Weapon?  Average Attacks   ????? ????? ????? 
Normal (Axe?):     1              1.1      1.15    1.20 
Joyuse? ?         1.5            1.55    1.575   1.6 
Ridill ?         1.9              1.91    1.915   1.92 
Kraken ?          3.2              3.08    3.02    2.96

So yeah according to this DA totally does boost Ridill while hurting Kraken. But it also says the average attacks of a Ridill are 1.9 without any DA and not 2 like I had guessed. I have no clue whats behind their math.

I'll be the first to admit I suck at math, and am a nub about ridill mechanics, but wouldn't a 10% boost to the # of attacks (which is essentially what you get with DA, no?) make the new total x*1.10, meaning Joyeuse should be 1.65 and Ridill should be 2.09? Or am I totally misunderstanding how this is being calculated :<

[Chupunpupun]

The % has to add up to 100% so the 10% DA would cause a 10% reduction in 1 hit too. So it's going to be like this:

1 hit x (50% x 90%) + 2 hit x (50% x 110%) = 1.55

[DragonCloud64]

http://ffxiwar.blog91.fc2.com/blog-entry-46.html#more

Not really related, but there's a really awesome radio at the bottom left of this page >.>

[Priran]

http://ffxiwar.blog91.fc2.com/blog-entry-46.html#more

Not really related, but there's a really awesome radio at the bottom left of this page >.>

Miku (the girl on the radio) is a mascot for a voice synthesis program, Vocaloid. It's a bit of a JP meme at the moment but god the voice gets annoying fast.

http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/5111/mikupe8.gif

[sleekmotorwurkz]

If this is true, and its not just some random coincidence, then I would think that there might be a hidden effect on multi hit weapons varying per zone/weather.

On the other hand, it is also possible that it is not just for multi hit weapons, but maybe different zones/weather have an effect on double/triple attack causing a difference in the calculations also.

Or.... its just a coincidence.

[Dense]

If this is true, and its not just some random coincidence, then I would think that there might be a hidden effect on multi hit weapons varying per zone/weather.

On the other hand, it is also possible that it is not just for multi hit weapons, but maybe different zones/weather have an effect on double/triple attack causing a difference in the calculations also.

Or.... its just a coincidence.

DA = Double Attack (not Dragon's Aery)

[sleekmotorwurkz]

Wow....yea immmmm dumb. I thought it was odd that someone would even entertain the possibility that area had an influence. but hey, im at work, my mind doesnt function properly till I get home anyway. /whoosh <me>

[suji]

Their data seems pretty consistent with a little simulation I did. The question about the ordering of DA and Ridill procs came up in my LS one day so I simulated a million swings with the scenarios:
- No double attack at all: assumed Ridill by itself was an even chance of all results, 33/33/33
- Double attack computed first: So if your JA triggered, a Ridill triple could not trigger
- Ridill first: Only single-swings that resulted from Ridill would get a chance to proc

Here's the result assuming 20% DA:

no double attack:
single: 0.333476
double: 0.333237
triple: 0.333287
average swings: 1.999811

da before:
single: 0.266887
double: 0.466293
triple: 0.26682
average swings: 1.999933

da after:
single: 0.266162
double: 0.400212
triple: 0.333626
average swings: 2.067464

So the easiest way to tell which outcome it is is to test whether or not you are swinging ~2.6 times more. Because scenario 2 is the most likely one ("da before"), this would imply that a Ridill gets .000122 times more swings from DA. In other words, it helps Ridill but barely, which is pretty much what the JPs are saying.

Here's the Python code for it if anyone is curious. Might be interesting to change the Ridill proc around so that it averages 1.92 and see how the numbers match up.

[Ambir]

Their data seems pretty consistent with a little simulation I did. The question about the ordering of DA and Ridill procs came up in my LS one day so I simulated a million swings with the scenarios:
- No double attack at all: assumed Ridill by itself was an even chance of all results, 33/33/33
- Double attack computed first: So if your JA triggered, a Ridill triple could not trigger
- Ridill first: Only single-swings that resulted from Ridill would get a chance to proc

Here's the result assuming 20% DA:

no double attack:
single: 0.333476
double: 0.333237
triple: 0.333287
average swings: 1.999811

da before:
single: 0.266887
double: 0.466293
triple: 0.26682
average swings: 1.999933

da after:
single: 0.266162
double: 0.400212
triple: 0.333626
average swings: 2.067464

So the easiest way to tell which outcome it is is to test whether or not you are swinging ~2.6 times more. Because scenario 2 is the most likely one ("da before"), this would imply that a Ridill gets .000122 times more swings from DA. In other words, it helps Ridill but barely, which is pretty much what the JPs are saying.

Here's the Python code for it if anyone is curious. Might be interesting to change the Ridill proc around so that it averages 1.92 and see how the numbers match up.

If you're assuming 33/33/33, the variations in probabilities in your first test (and the variation between your first test and your second test) are just random error. Average swings for both test 1 and 2 would be exactly 2.00000000.

If single, double and triple attacks from a ridill are of equal probabliity, then average attacks per round is 2. By adding a possible DA before ridill proc is tested, you're effectively replacing an attack per round of 2 (the ridill proc) with another attack per round of 2 (th DA proc), which is no difference.