Will WotG be FFXI's BC?

[Marcicus]

Wasn't the exact same question asked about ToAU before it came out?

[Dustybrown]

The thing with TBC and any MMO expansion is that there will always be people who 'QQ' over change. I think that the number of people actually pissed with the changes with WoW were actually a small minority of players.

Moving on to FFXI specifically I don't really think this expansion will alienate the players currently playing. However, it depends on Campaign. I read the Osaka report and please do correct me if I'm wrong here but it sounded like Campaign was aimed more at solo play and casuals. If you only have a few minutes you can run to Campaign and make a little xp. This should also benefit jobs who have a hard time finding parties (ie DRG) who can go get xp while seeking for a party. If the xp is decent though, some people may prefer just doing Campaign to meripoing or partying or whatever. I'm not sure I'm convinced it will affect it at all though, but that's the only way I could see Campaign decreasing the player base. Parties were my favourite aspect of FFXI, without them there's nothing much to draw me back.

I like how SE are finally realising they have players who can't always devote hours upon hours to a game. However, I don't honestly think it will encourage people to play who are not already playing the game or have left the game. For one, BC probably brought in new players because it was casual but also because WoW is so damn popular more people have heard of it... with less press about WOTG and FFXI, less new players will start the game. Also, even though Campaign is pretty groundbreaking it still seems to me (again, please correct me if I'm wrong) that even though you can get XP, meripos and parties in Campaign, when you hit 75 the endgame bottleneck is still the same. With that in place I think a lot of endgamers who left won't be encouraged to come back. There's also the fact that apart from Campaign and 2 new jobs SE hasn't released much about this expansion. If you didn't want to play DCR or Scholar (I don't know who wouldn't want to, but whatever) and you weren't convinced by Campaign there's not much else in the expansion which will bring you back. For example - more macro palettes without more actual macro lines which show that SE are trying but still missing the point.

I don't think WOTG can really harm the population unless it breaks the party system. I think it will keep the population playing with the implementation of at least 2 new jobs and it may even bring a few people back to try them. But I'm also not convinced it will bring back many people who stopped playing as it doesn't tackle a lot of the problems and I don't think it will bring new players in for reasons outlined above.

Edit - some people might come back because of a certain caped cat I'm not permitted to mention. you know, just to see if it really is that caped cat I can't mention.

[ringthree]

The thing with TBC and any MMO expansion is that there will always be people who 'QQ' over change. I think that the number of people actually pissed with the changes with WoW were actually a small minority of players.

Moving on to FFXI specifically I don't really think this expansion will alienate the players currently playing. However, it depends on Campaign. I read the Osaka report and please do correct me if I'm wrong here but it sounded like Campaign was aimed more at solo play and casuals. If you only have a few minutes you can run to Campaign and make a little xp. This should also benefit jobs who have a hard time finding parties (ie DRG) who can go get xp while seeking for a party. If the xp is decent though, some people may prefer just doing Campaign to meripoing or partying or whatever. I'm not sure I'm convinced it will affect it at all though, but that's the only way I could see Campaign decreasing the player base. Parties were my favourite aspect of FFXI, without them there's nothing much to draw me back.

I like how SE are finally realising they have players who can't always devote hours upon hours to a game. However, I don't honestly think it will encourage people to play who are not already playing the game or have left the game. For one, BC probably brought in new players because it was casual but also because WoW is so damn popular more people have heard of it... with less press about WOTG and FFXI, less new players will start the game. Also, even though Campaign is pretty groundbreaking it still seems to me (again, please correct me if I'm wrong) that even though you can get XP, meripos and parties in Campaign, when you hit 75 the endgame bottleneck is still the same. With that in place I think a lot of endgamers who left won't be encouraged to come back. There's also the fact that apart from Campaign and 2 new jobs SE hasn't released much about this expansion. If you didn't want to play DCR or Scholar (I don't know who wouldn't want to, but whatever) and you weren't convinced by Campaign there's not much else in the expansion which will bring you back. For example - more macro palettes without more actual macro lines which show that SE are trying but still missing the point.

I don't think WOTG can really harm the population unless it breaks the party system. I think it will keep the population playing with the implementation of at least 2 new jobs and it may even bring a few people back to try them. But I'm also not convinced it will bring back many people who stopped playing as it doesn't tackle a lot of the problems and I don't think it will bring new players in for reasons outlined above.

Edit - some people might come back because of a certain caped cat I'm not permitted to mention. you know, just to see if it really is that caped cat I can't mention.

I think this is what true scaling is about. Reward scaling is a much smaller concern overall to retaining players than participation scaling is. The number of people that quit because "they will never get a Ridill" is much smaller than the number of players that quit because they are bored.

[Alleya]

Probably already said but...FFXI already had that with CoP. They appear to have learned their lesson despite the horrible mob design in ToaU.

[Belkin]

I might have missed this somewhere, but where can I find the information on

With the upcoming changes to all jobs

Was unaware they released info like that already, please direct me

[Isiolia]

If they continue the way they designed things on ToAU, I really doubt they'll be losing people over WoTG.

I mean, I know personally, and several people I know in-game...if WoTG doesn't capture our interest, quitting is likely. But what we want out of it is different than what others might. It's less about being pissed off over what WoTG might be, and more about being somewhat tired of the game and wanting something new.

IMO, doing stuff like keeping the same rare items really rare is just shooting yourself in the foot over the long run. I would think that, as an MMO designer, making your game more appealing for new players (IE, increase subscriber base) would outweigh catering only to your hardcore, long-time players to keep them around longer. Even if you saw 20-25% of haijin types leave, that's probably only 2% of your population. Meanwhile, $1.99 demo discs and a reinvigorated game might increase server populations 20% total.

Was unaware they released info like that already, please direct me

They haven't said exactly what will be changed, just that they plan to. Of course, it's a pretty pat answer at this point for them, always stretched into some future patch/expansion.

[Thistle]

However, it depends on Campaign. I read the Osaka report and please do correct me if I'm wrong here but it sounded like Campaign was aimed more at solo play and casuals. If you only have a few minutes you can run to Campaign and make a little xp. This should also benefit jobs who have a hard time finding parties (ie DRG) who can go get xp while seeking for a party. If the xp is decent though, some people may prefer just doing Campaign to meripoing or partying or whatever.

I have zero interest in the two new jobs. For me, Wing's success or failure depends on Campaign. I hate hate hate XPing/meripoing, but merits are kind of fun. I had been getting them through Besieged all this time, but Campaign should not only bring more options for gaining XP, it should keep me from being so darned bored.

Plus they said you could solo/use low level jobs. Have a job you had been leveling through XP scrolls? This might be another option.

[Seigfried Of Pandy]

if anything i have a feeling this might be ffxi's shining moment, having hopefully learned a lot from cop and toau.

[Hanyoko]

I could see SE changing the status quo on the mechanics for several jobs. Possibly the addition of new spells and equipment. But be this rumor/speculation/made up I could also forsee that some of these changes will only exist in the past. Therefore you can generate content where people can obtain some pretty wonderfull things, but only have them at full power during the content that they were designed around.

Thats not saying the new jobs will be past only. But much like job specific merits, various assault/salvage/besieged armor. They do have conditions in place for them to be active.

[theory]
For example. Due to the various magics at work, meteor is a valid spell that blms can cast only in the past. This would create a choice that the players can do. Exp in toau and have a exp bonus, or exp in the past and have big boom boom.
[/theory]

I cant wait to hear more about it in the next few weeks..... and the mined data from tonights patch ^^

[Shamaya]

No I don't think it'll be anything like a downfall. I think that SE is continuing to go along the right path, even if there are some people who might have an increased desire to leave after the changes (this probably happens to some people after every change).

However I was interested in this,

With the upcoming changes to all jobs,

I haven't been reading here lately, but I've been trying to keep up to date with the upcoming updates and expansion. I don't remember hearing about a large job revamp any time recently though. As someone said, if you really have heard of such a major revamping, please direct here. Otherwise I'll assume there is no large-scale revamping of all the jobs.

[Gwynplaine]

A couple small concerns I have for the expansion:

I'm curious about the types of city areas available. We haven't seen anything comparable to a full fledged city yet, and it sounds like there may not be A.H access at all? This would mean Whitegate is still the place to be, (and rightfully so since AU built so much around it). As long as the past areas are accessible while still maintaining my HP in a home nation that's fine with me though.

The other thing is partying and exp/merit gained. Will there be other bonus' applied to the Signet/Sanction type effect? For the moment it sounds like it just removes exp loss from death. So I'm wondering if these areas will be able to compete with AU's sanction exp bonus, and regen/refresh. Maybe in the end though, the casual odd jobs offered by Campaign will help even things out.

I haven't been reading here lately, but I've been trying to keep up to date with the upcoming updates and expansion. I don't remember hearing about a large job revamp any time recently though. As someone said, if you really have heard of such a major revamping, please direct here. Otherwise I'll assume there is no large-scale revamping of all the jobs.

They didn't say they were going to "revamp" or "reinvent" existing jobs. They mentioned all jobs gaining new abilities and magic is basically it. The effect that could have on the jobs is anyones guess.

[DAKPluto]

Damn, THF gets any new abilities my Ja list on THF/WAR gonna be like 6 miles long, lol.

[Kimiko]

With the upcoming changes to all jobs, along with the addition of two new jobs, you have to wonder how much the game play mechanics will change. From the sounds of it, it may not just be a minor change here or there, but rather large changes to all jobs. So my question is: will this ultimately be FFXI's downfall? When Blizzard released the new WoW expansion, the changes brought to the table alienated a lot of the player base and many left. Will the same happen for FFXI? (Edit) Don't mean for this to turn into a FFXI vs WoW debate, I'm more making a comparison of another MMO (albeit one I'm not that knowledgable in [sidenote: no "ffxi rite?" jokes!]) that went through massive changes and FFXI which will be going through large changes to the jobs.

What are you views/opinions/wishes/expectations?

(Cait Sith meme is punishable by death in this thread.)

(Multiple edits due to me not being able to read...)

Now don't get me wrong, I for one have never played WoW, but from what various friends have told that a lot of the reason for the "alienation" from WoW was based upon the raising of the level cap and redering all the then high-level gear that people had worked for months/years to get obsolete overnight. Since SE has long since been against any increases in the level cap, rather going the route of adding additional powers through meritable abilities, FFXI never really has obtained that stigmata of alienating players.

[DAKPluto]

Yeah, the green box gear in the BC area (in FFXI terms we are talking like end game crafted gear, like Hauby or Noble's Tunic) just destroys the purple box gear (in FFXI terms, think ridill/e.body)

Anybody who spent months and months and hundreds of DKP in Molten core just got jewed with BC.

[Xanthe]

FFXI never really has obtained that stigmata of alienating players.

OT, but...

Stigma:
a mark of disgrace or infamy; a stain or reproach, as on one's reputation.

Stigmata:
marks resembling the wounds of the crucified body of Christ, said to be supernaturally impressed on the bodies of certain persons, esp. nuns, tertiaries, and monastics.

[Luto]

I've never played WoW (I was a traitor and tried downloading the trial once though, but it said 2 days on my pos internet so I said nothx.) and know I don't know much about it. I just remember people talking about some jobs being changed and other jobs had to respec or something along those lines. I could be wrong though.

I'm hoping WotG doesn't change things too much with our current game mechanics. People will always complain about /NIN, but the things it lets you do is incomparable to anything currently in the game. I'm praying that's not something that gets "fixed". Secretly, I'm praying for WHMs to be able to compete with RDMs in meripo. (Maybe things as far fetched as Half MP Cost, 1 MP Cost EVEN!? Not likely though.) I'm hoping Scholar is a viable SJ for WHM in the "decrease amount of MP used" department, but on the other hand, if that's viable for WHM, it's going to go even better with RDM and that doesn't really fix things, now does it?

I'm not a fan of CoP, then again, I did start playing about a month before ToAU came out and quit a week after due to RL reasons and only came back a 14 months ago (with two more 1 month+ breaks in that time.) I think if I had started earlier and gotten through it in the beginning when more people needed it, I may have proved easier, but maybe not. Even though the nerf bat swung at CoP a few times, the ideal set up is still to throw SMN it and it works. (I did Snoll with SMN SMN PLD DRK MNK SAM and it was dead before Invincible wore off.) People can say CoP took skill to get through (and maybe these last few missions do, currently on chapter 6) but really, it's all about getting your SMN/BLM/SAM/MNK x2, getting to the BC (which always proves harder than the actual fight) and then 2hring and beating it in <5 minutes. And most importantly, level caps. Ugh. (Flame me if you wish, I found it annoying having recently gotten 75 when I started CoP again [Mammets] to lose all the cool things that came with being a higher level.)

I'm praying WotG is not like CoP, or if it is, make it actually challenging, not challenging in the way stairs are for someone in a wheel chair. (If I could walk, I could climb these stairs! If I could find 3 SMN that need this mission, I could beat this mission! etc)

Dancer sounds more and more like the PUP of WotG, and while I'd like to see it not be the PUP, I don't see it happening. If it has decent combat skills, maybe but "hold on guys! my C+ rating in my best weapon isn't letting me get TP that fast! you'll get your endrain in 43 more TP!" does not seem cool to me.

[Ryany]

It is sort of comparing apples to oranges with both games with how each are designed.

FFXI is a game where you mostly better your character through leveling up, meriting, and earning gil to buy good gear off the auction house. (which for most jobs, nearly half the best gear comes off the AH or AF) You can be a decent character with max merits, the best AH gear, and full AF1. You don't NEED endgame items to really beat anything in the game. It's mostly e-penis.

WoW is a game where your character will be absolute crap if you aren't hardcore into the endgame or PVP. (picture players who don't raid or PVP having a joyeuse for a sword, people who casually do either having a ridill for a sword, and people who hardcore raid having some kraken club with a dmg rating of 50 instead of 11...that's how big of a difference gear makes)

I personally found the non-endgame part of WoWs BC to be the best expansion ever. They didn't just dump a few zones on you and tell you to kill 84,000 monsters to level up to 70. They did a spectacular job of designing so many quests that you probably could have gone five levels past the new level cap if you did them all. The quests were well designed that none were too long and you always seemed to have a variety of them so you never felt like you were doing the same thing too long. The best thing of all was that the quests were actually rewarding.

I stopped playing WoW's BC due to how they designed the endgame. Like someone said above, the shift from 40-man raids, to 10-man raids, and back to 25-man raids was disaster for most guilds. Guilds had to mass recruit to get up to 40 before the expansion, and then you had Karazhan that only was for 10 people. All groups ended up being saved to an instance for a few days so you had to keep groups consistent. This made every guild feel like it was 2-3 separate guilds. Then, you shifted back to 25 and many of the people already quit the guild and you all of a sudden don't have enough. Even worse were situations where guild leaders stacked their own Karazhan group with all the reliable attendance people, best jobs, and/or best players and pretty much doomed any other group out of the guild of having much success. For example, one group would usually have only 8 or so people on without the right job configuration and would never progress. One of the first 25-main raids, I got to watch people in officer chat complain about how some rouge from the 2nd group was second in the damage meters and how shitty the other damage dealers must be if someone as gimp as him was that high. All I thought was how that rouge was put in a group that was left with hardly any reliable players thanks to the same people complaining stacking their own group and not trying to balance the groups. I ended up going back to FFXI right after that.

Unless they design the WotG expansion to be very dependent on new endgame encounters or PVP to a point that your character is absolute crap if you don't do them hardcore, it probably will be reasons other than the expansion that will drive people like me out.

[Zarath]

I've played during the BC time of WoW, it killed and gained a lot of people though the same methods. Good gear was easier to access, but in the same respect made elite gear out of date.

Anyways, I have a few issues with Luto's conceptions in his last post, namely with CoP's rigidness. Sure yea SMN can break a lot of missions prior to Chapter 6, but not like it's the end all, be all of how CoP works. I've gained Sea well before most people did, within the 1st week of it being introduced, of course it was no easy task back then but I worked with my less than ideal team (who am I kidding, anyone back then would have said ur team would fail) to gain sea access. It isn't really about gaining specific jobs, but more along the lines of knowing what to expect and working out solutions to the likely outcomes of said events, which to my experience, is not a whole lot of people (my 1st time I lead all the current leaders of my HNMLS in CoP missions <<;, as well as an entire sky LS who wanted my expertise on CoP, additionally with a few other groups... yea I'm tired of CoP)

My biggest grudge, and I agree with you, is the level cap, it's an unnecessary detriment in many CoP areas, and a waste of storage space.

Finally, I don't see WoTG being the FFXI killer, and in fact, it seems to be it's an expansion to try more player friendly content.

PS: I've merited with a WHM before, needless to say most run of the mill WHMs are out though XD. @ job changes, weren't some jobs getting new spells and what not, I know I'm getting new rolls if they say true in that one interview a few months back.

[Ryko]

Not really, seeing as how SE pretty much said they weren't going to outdo the current top of the line gear and that's pretty much the whole basis behind BC.

<_< It's pretty bad but my interest in the expansion pretty much died the second I saw "2 jobs" and remembered the first part. Beyond killing whatever HNM they add off the bat I'm pretty much gonna be bored off my ass.

[BRP]

This thread is silly. Like "Hey, we don't see enough baseless apocalyptic paranoia in other threads, let's make a thread about it".

In anycase, FFXI was complete shit when it first came out. It wasn't until RotZ that it got its shape and form. It's unfortunate RotZ didn't really plan for future which set up CoP as a disappointment for the first half of its era(end-game wise anyway). ToAU, and I like to believe WotG be too, was a middle ground of two with a lot of compromise with Devs and what players want.