SAM tanking Chariots in Salvage.

[ringthree]

I have heard of several people doing this now. I was curious as to the subs that people were using, gear set-ups, and the support that they need to be able to do this effectively. /WAR would seem to be rather dangerous if you got unlucky with an early Third Eye erase and /NIN would just basically be the same as MNK/NIN. Do people use regular DD gear for this or do they go with -DMG% from something like Hydra and Arhats?

[TB]

Tanked LAC in a 6people setup 2 days ago and it was retardedly easy. Was going SAM/WAR. Full DD gear when Third Eye is up and full defense gear when its down. With attack food (H.Pie) I could even keep Defender on and still hit 1k Gekko's. Berserk was only partially used. With Defender I was being hit for 140-160dmg non crits which is no problem at all, due to Paralyze, Slow2 and Elegy owning the thing. Overall I was not hit alot.

Gears:

DD Gear

Hagun, Pole Strap, Tiphia Sting
Ace's Helm, Justice Torque, Brutal Earrring, Bushinomimi
Haubergein+1, Dusk Gloves, Ulthalam's Ring, Rajas Ring
Cerberus Mantle, Swift Belt, Byakko's Haidate, Usukane Sune-ATe

Def Gear

Hagun, Pole Srap, Bibiki Seashell
Arhat's Jinpachi +1, Evasion Torque, Brutal + Bushi (got no special earrings for that set)
Arhat's Gi +1, Seiryu's Kote, Jelly Ring, Bomb Queen Ring
Boxer's Mantle, Warwolf Belt, Byakko's Haidate, Suzaku's Sune-Ate

WS Gear

Hagun, Pole Strap, Olibanum Sachet
Wyvern Helm, Snow Gorget, Brutal Earring, Bushinomimi
Kirin's Osode, Alkyoneu's Bracelets, Flame Ring, Rajas Ring
Cerberus Mantle, Warwolf belt, Usukane Hizayoroi, Rutter Sabatons

As you can see. Nothing special or fancy there. Setup was: SAM/WAR, WAR/NIN, BRD/WHM, BLM/WHM, RDM/WHM, WHM/SMN. The fight took about 18minutes. We opened with Soul Voiced Meikyo + Mighty Strikes and got the thing to 75% and first Brainjack in about 30 sec. lol

[Alcarin]

LAc is easy he hits like a girl. But LBC? you think will work the same ? IF you sub war of course. Nin sub can apply to Any melee job.

I did tank LAc with Blu/nin using Genbu shield and coocon and piv with taco, i was getting hit by 90 dmg. criticals of 250 sometimes 300

[Kuponut]

Does Brainjack last for a certain amount of time, or only until it uses it 4-6 times or something?

My group has been having trouble with LAC, mainly with it killing people when the tanks get charmed. I manage to swap in a low DMG weapon right before I get charmed, so I don't kill everyone, but chariot just chases everyone and runs them over, and it is very hard to get hate back as MNK/NIN when people are running for their lives. We told the BLMs to go all out when it uses starts using brainjack, but when they get hate, it usually kills them before it charms them.

[aurik]

Does Brainjack last for a certain amount of time, or only until it uses it 4-6 times or something?

My group has been having trouble with LAC, mainly with it killing people when the tanks get charmed. I manage to swap in a low DMG weapon right before I get charmed, so I don't kill everyone, but chariot just chases everyone and runs them over, and it is very hard to get hate back as MNK/NIN when people are running for their lives. We told the BLMs to go all out when it uses starts using brainjack, but when they get hate, it usually kills them before it charms them.

Time-based.

[Slott]

It seems to use either inertia stream (If you're far) or brain jack, depending on distance. Typically, as a thief, I'll do enough damage to be 3rd on hate list, then kite it around while the tanks are charmed, when they uncharm, i make sure to stay far enough away (Since it'll still have a ws loaded) and when it tries to fire off inertia stream, means its ok to fight again (Since it could just brain jack again, if i let it get too close)

[Wolfknight]

LAc is easy he hits like a girl. But LBC? you think will work the same ? IF you sub war of course. Nin sub can apply to Any melee job.

I did tank LAc with Blu/nin using Genbu shield and coocon and piv with taco, i was getting hit by 90 dmg. criticals of 250 sometimes 300

I did sam/war co-tank with war/nin tanking fine and I have gimp defense/-dmg% set(NQ arhats, Seiryu kote, jelly ring only) we had missile 9/10; support was brd rdm 2x whm, extra DD a blm and rng, had thf and war/nin(did nothing was incase sam/war didn't work was my 1st time), honestly only large dmg I took was from one bad homing missile(he turned and did it so I took 1k to the face); other that fight went smooth and pretty quick; with defense gear on I got hit for maybe 130min 200 max on non-crit only got 1 crit vs me(while zerk was up ) for 450; also I used sachet and usukane feet full time.

[Falaras]

Sam/nin, Marchx2, Haste, +15% in Haste gear, full DD gear I see no reason for -physical gear.
I have done /war before on the Discoid chariot, but hes the weak one, I wouldn't risk it any where else. Dual tank with a Drk/nin that parses about the same as me so we bounce hate pretty well, don't really lose hate. Phalanx II and Slow II help a ton too.

[Wolfknight]

Sam/nin, Marchx2, Haste, +15% in Haste gear, full DD gear I see no reason for -physical gear.
I have done /war before on the Discoid chariot, but hes the weak one, I wouldn't risk it any where else. Dual tank with a Drk/nin that parses about the same as me so we bounce hate pretty well, don't really lose hate.

why /nin for slower dmg, defense that get wiped by chariot AoEs?, main reason sam/war works dam well here is unlike shadows, third eye doesn't get wiped by any of the chariot AoEs; so have defense and can zerk, warcy, voke and Double Attack; also I assume you full nerf missile since I don't see how u could get hate back otherwise(unless mages stand still and let u ws it).

[RKenshin]

I tend to use different strategies for different bosses/mobs.

But yes, it does work fine, and it works as SAM/WAR. I've never tried /NIN nor would I ever really need/want to, because Chariots more than most other mobs in the game are really a bitch for Utsesumi users if it's using TP often enough (which is typically the case for us, since we normally have 2-5 melees on it and no MNKs). Nearly all AoE TP attacks clear Utsesumi, however only one (iirc, Mortal Rev.. maybe Discoid too? forgot) clears Third Eye.

In addition to this, subbing NIN you can't really guarantee with any certainty you can keep hate. If you're the main tank for a Chariot this is a huge reduction in how well you can make this work. This especially applies for LAC and LBC where the potential hate resets are almost unavoidable. Provoke is a really important ability in general regardless, and is not only very useful/important for Chariots but also for getting there.

So yeah, some stuff:

Necessities
IMO there are a few things that are absolutely necessary for this to work effectively. The first thing I'd have to say would be a good set of defense gear, because whether you're /WAR or /NIN you will take damage, and being able to cut it by 30-50% makes a huge difference in your survivability and the amount of support needed to keep you alive.

In addition to this, it's also important to have a solid set of DD/WS gear and merits, because well... You have to be dealing a good deal of damage to hold hate well. On this topic I almost always have attack food/tacos on me for serving either the purpose of enhacing my damage capabilities (and hate), or tacos to reduce the damage I taken (which decreases hate loss, and helps with MP mangement).

I also carry Icarus Wings on me, as being able to use an item that basically gives you a [chance] at producing hate equivalent to like 5 Provokes, is rather useful in itself without going into the fact it adds damage.

General Mob Tanking
- I'm in DD gear full-time unless Third Eye is down. If it's down, I usually switch into defense gear until it's up again. Sometimes, if fighting a lot of mobs that AoE often (aka, gears), I place Shadow Mantle in place of Forager's.
- I always have attack food on.
- Don't normally use Terra's Staff at all unless it's some special situation, like tanking several mobs at once (our new Hammerblow approach: http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/1507/ffxi3457vn3.jpg) or a situation that would warrent holding a mob.

Long-Armed Chariot
About the same approach as for general tanking.
- I'm in DD gear full-time unless Third Eye is down, and if it's down I switch into defense gear. My DD gear has a slight spin however, where I keep Shadow Mantle on in place of Forager's just because of the many AoE attacks.
- I usually use attack food since LAC doesn't hit too hard, but tacos work as well, and are probably better IMO in a smaller manned run where you're the only/primary tank. I also use Berserk freely, but if something goes wrong there's always the option to cancel it and if needed, even pop up defender.
- I also have a set of enmity gear I use for Provoke/Warcry after a charm hate reset. Terra's staff is used if we have to hold it.

Long-Bowed Chariot
Basically the same as LAC.
- I'm in DD gear full-time unless Third Eye is down, and if it's down I switch into defense gear. My DD gear has the same spin, where I put Shadow Mantle in place of Forager's.
- Same applies for the food choices and Berserk/Defender use.
- Likewise, I also have a set of enmity gear for this Chariot, if he happens to still have the hate resetting homing missle. Terra's is used if we have to hold it.

Armored Chariot
This is a special case.
- I'm in the defense gear full-time (other than WS of course).
- I prefer to use tacos here since not only does it hit hard, but you take higher damage than normal because of Mortal Revolution. I don't usually use Berserk, but I don't usually use Defender either.
- I'll have the set of enmity gear on me but it's usually not needed, unless shit hits the fan somehow. Terra's is still only used if we have to hold it.

Battleclad Chariot
Similar to armored.
- I'm in defense gear full-time usually but not always(again, other than WS). Usually I don't try to get any magic damage reduction, but if you're low on numbers/MP and the main tank you might want some (resentment cape, merman's earrings, gavial, etc).
- I'm still kind of bouncing around as far as whether to use tacos/attack food more often here, but I'd go with it being safest to go for tacos. I usually use Berserk, and don't usually have to use Defender.
- Hate usually isn't a problem with this one but the enmity gear is still there in case. Terra's still only used if we have to hold it.


Basically that's it, a lot of aspects apply for all chariots and there are some specifics a little different for each one. The enmity gear isn't a requirement and it's only something I started doing recently, however in most runs there are other DDs there with me that can also tank. So it's not really something I need, although if you're main tanking you would benefit from having it.

The three sets of gear I mentioned above are as follows:
TP
Main: GK
Sub: Pole
Ammo: Tiphea
Head: Ace's
Neck: Justice
Ear1: Brutal
Ear2: Merman's
Body: Byrnie +1, Usu for Chariots (for Chariots, recommend either Usu or Haub+1 for Acc with absense of a relic)
Hands: Dusk (often use Usukane for Chariots)
Ring1: Rajas
Ring2: Mars
Back: Forager's (Shadow used in place of it for Chariots/some AoE TP spamming mobs)
Waist: Speed
Legs: Usukane/Byakko's (byakko recommended for Chariots)
Feet: Usukane

Defense
Main: GK (Terra's for holding)
Sub: Pole
Ammo: Oliban
Head: Arhat+1
Neck: Justice
Ear1: Brutal
Ear2: Merman's
Body: Arhat+1
Hands: Usukane
Ring1: Defending
Ring2: Jelly
Back: Shadow
Waist: Speed
Legs: Usukane/Byakko's (byakko recommended for Chariots)
Feet: Usukane

Enmity
Main: GK
Sub: Pole
Ammo: Tiphea
Head: Arhat+1 (Bahamut's mask is better)
Neck: Harmonia's
Ear1: Eris+1
Ear2: Eris+1
Body: Arhat+1
Hands: Dusk (often use Usukane for Chariots)
Ring1: Mermaid
Ring2: Mars
Back: Resentment (Cerb better)
Waist: Warwolf
Legs: Usukane/Byakko's (byakko recommended for Chariots)
Feet: Usukane

There's also obviously a good deal more amount of enmity you could get other pieces of equipment, I only started this set recently though so I don't have anything other than what I stole from my NIN's set of enmity gear.

I think that kind of summarizes everything. <.< I should've just updated my LJ with this + a few screens.

[Rhinox]

holy shit its like a mini LJ update! >.>

[aurik]

I should've just updated my LJ with this + a few screens.

Yep.

[Kuponut]

Do you have Third Eye merits? I am assuming that they lower Third Eye recast to 50 seconds, and Seigan will lower that to 25 seconds?

[Wolfknight]

Do you have Third Eye merits? I am assuming that they lower Third Eye recast to 50 seconds, and Seigan will lower that to 25 seconds?

I did LBC with store tp(5) and mediate(5) I assume other sams did same.

[Falaras]

Sam/nin, Marchx2, Haste, +15% in Haste gear, full DD gear I see no reason for -physical gear.
I have done /war before on the Discoid chariot, but hes the weak one, I wouldn't risk it any where else. Dual tank with a Drk/nin that parses about the same as me so we bounce hate pretty well, don't really lose hate.

why /nin for slower dmg, defense that get wiped by chariot AoEs?, main reason sam/war works dam well here is unlike shadows, third eye doesn't get wiped by any of the chariot AoEs; so have defense and can zerk, warcy, voke and Double Attack; also I assume you full nerf missile since I don't see how u could get hate back otherwise(unless mages stand still and let u ws it).

Seigan is possibly the most unpredictable and worst defensive tactic I've ever seen. Sure a pro is AoE doesn't wipe it, but a con is if its ever Paralyzed your tottaly fucked for 30 seconds. To be completely honest we maxed on LBC before the 2 hander patch when I had never used Sam in salvage, but I'm sure I could tank it. Getting hate back after a missle isn't even hard, we've tanked LBC with Drk multiple times having no hate problems at all (non nerfed missle). The added damage isn't really neccessary for most things, we usually finish a chariot with 5-10 minutes left, depending on what NMs we go for at least.
Edit: Also like to add I have no need for spike hate like Provoke because of my cotank, that could be a big factor in /nin for me, while you like /war. Shtis situational.

[TB]

Have your mages be fast with Paralyna and don't hit TA macro when you are paralyzed? >_> And even 30 seconds aren't that bad in full defense gear, since Paralyze, Slow and Elegy are always on and owning the Chariot.

[Falaras]

I'd rather /nin and be 100% safe then speed up a chariot kill we don't need sped up to risk alot of factors.

[RKenshin]

I'd rather /nin and be 100% safe then speed up a chariot kill we don't need sped up to risk alot of factors.

Longer fights are a risk in itself too ya know. The longer a fight lasts the higher the risk of mistakes, MP running out, or something unpredictable going wrong (ie, someone DCing or an unlucky DA/TA/crit streak from a chariot).

This is without going into the fact that time is a major factor for the most efficient Salvage runs. If you're content going through an entire run with no objective other than a few NMs and maybe a boss then maybe not, but most groups (my group included) try to get the most out of every minute in every salvage run. Which basically means, every minute gained matters.

I think my group has seen at least 10 NM/boss fights where things came down to the very last minutes/seconds. And, over the course of a standard salvage run, the amount of extra damage you'd put out while /WAR versus /NIN becomes rather considerable. It can easily be the difference in killing the boss/NM in time and not. We've actually timed out around 5-10 seconds after we managed to lot/pass equipment on I think four occasions now.

So really you can make a point about risks either way. /NIN isn't some no-risk and no-loss makeseverythingbetterandsolvesallproblems SJ choice.

Do you have Third Eye merits? I am assuming that they lower Third Eye recast to 50 seconds, and Seigan will lower that to 25 seconds?

Nope, the other merits are too good to sacrifice for -5s on Third Eye IMO.

[Falaras]

I'd rather /nin and be 100% safe then speed up a chariot kill we don't need sped up to risk alot of factors.

Longer fights are a risk in itself too ya know. The longer a fight lasts the higher the risk of mistakes, MP running out, or something unpredictable going wrong (ie, someone DCing or an unlucky DA/TA/crit streak from a chariot).

This is without going into the fact that time is a major factor for the most efficient Salvage runs. If you're content going through an entire run with no objective other than a few NMs and maybe a boss then maybe not, but most groups (my group included) try to get the most out of every minute in everysalvage run.

I think my group has seen at least 10 NM/boss fights where things came down to the very last minutes/seconds. And, over the course of a standard salvage run, the amount of extra damage you'd put out while /WAR versus /NIN becomes rather considerable. It can easily be the difference in killing the boss/NM in time and not. We've actually timed out around 5-10 seconds after we managed to lot/pass equipment on I think four occasions now.

MP running out is a much higher risk when your plan hinges on a unpredictable JA and taking hits (even if in a high amount of defense). We get enough NMs, have better upgrade rates then most LSs (even though thats practically all luck) and do what works best for us. I'm not saying war is ever a bad SJ and like I said I have used it effectively, but it is not for me.
Edit: And that whole tanking HB PHs in full defense thing, we've been doing that since the start using a Drk with Taco and Phalanx II (0 -physical) and it always works out fine. Sure taking a little lower damage is nice, but its not always important.

[RKenshin]

MP running out is a much higher risk when your plan hinges on a unpredictable JA and taking hits (even if in a high amount of defense). We get enough NMs, have better upgrade rates then most LSs (even though thats practically all luck) and do what works best for us. I'm not saying war is ever a bad SJ and like I said I have used it effectively, but it is not for me.

Funny because, for such an unpredictable JA that results in MP running out, it's worked fine for me and other SAMs. Arguably in situations that are just about as bad as it gets. Like, WAR+SAM+BRD+THF+RNG+RDM (might have been a WHM, forgot) vs Armored Chariot.

And, actually, the whole predictability factor is rather debatable to the extent you seem to rank it. I can say with certaintity that around 95% of the time if I time Third Eye right, I will get at least 3 absorbs. I can count the number of times I've had Third Eye wear off the second after it was used over the course of the last 3 months on one hand; 4 times. Once in exp, twice in Dynamis, and once in Salvage. It's extremely rare, so rare I remember almost every time it happens because I always have a big WTF reaction. I actually don't recall this ever happening on a Chariot thus far either. And really that small of a chance of it happening isn't enough to warrent it being 'completely unpredictable'. In one sense yes, you can't predict the number of anticpates you will get with each use. But in another sense, no, I can use Third Eye and feel just about confident that I'll be safe for at least another 3 anticipates... With an average of around 4-5.

But really, on the same topic how often can you predict how many shadows you'll get out of Utsesumi? If you want to be perfectly fair about it on a Chariot, you can't. 1 shadow, 2 shadow... Shit, aoe, shadows lost. Casting Ni... Shit, AoE, shadows lost. Point being Utsesumi isn't exactly 100% predictable either, so again you can make a case either way. In fact this is especially true for shadows, because more often than not with Utsesumi you can't predict how many shadows of use you'll get out of it. You get Utsesumi cleared constantly on Chariots, and for someone saying unpredictableunpredictableunpredictableunpredictab le over and over and over again, it's funny you don't realize that you could make the same case that the number of shadows you get out of each Utsesumi use is unpredictable on chariots. It's just that Third Eye and Utsesumi are unpredictable in different ways.

And this isn't about making it viable for you, this is a general discussion on the SJ choice for Salvage. If you think it doesn't work for you then so be it, and I'm not here to convince you otherwise or make you change your strategy, but honestly IMO outside of some extreme situations I don't see it not working for anyone if one tries hard enough and has the gear/merits available.


EDIT:

Edit: And that whole tanking HB PHs in full defense thing, we've been doing that since the start using a Drk with Taco and Phalanx II (0 -physical) and it always works out fine. Sure taking a little lower damage is nice, but its not always important.

It's an example of the use of a set of gear, I wasn't saying it's the only way to do something or that it was required, so you're missing the point. I mean I don't even get your point considering that wasn't even part of a /NIN v /WAR thing because both SJs could accomplish the same thing.

In additon that was hardly a unique example to begin with as any job can do that rather effectively with the right gear, but it doesn't change the fact it's one thing that the gear can be useful for among many others. That wasn't the point of the post though, I'm not going to go on a complete tangent about every situation it's useful in to prove a point when no one even questioned it to start with.

My posts are long as it is without going into tangents at every opportunity in attempt to anticipate things people may or may not question.

EDIT2: In fact, you completely just took something out of context and used it against me. Posting that Hammerblow thing was to show a situaiton where I would use Terra's Staff. I said nothing else other than that concerning showcasing that example, and your assumptions about defense gear and that example are just plain wrong.