SAM tanking Chariots in Salvage.

[Falaras]

My results have been the exact opposites, I completely /war in everything but Salvage and can count the number of 5 Shadow anticipates I get on my fingers, while the number of 1 and 2 is overwhelming.
I guess I wasn't clear in predictability, of course they get cleared, but you can just recast them. You know your gonna have those shadows for 3 hits after the cast, if they get cleared from an AoE, recast. You'll always have that theres no debating that. If your having trouble recasting shadows get a good cotank. I'm not saying I don't use Seigan, I have used it on bosses, and I hate it. When I 2h I don't wanna miss the SC so I generally cast Seigan first and that usually throws my HP spiraling downwards until I can get Seigan off and Utsusemi on.
From my experience, after a AoE Paralyze casting Utsu has a 90% chance of going off, while getting Third Eye off is low like 25% at best. Our healers can't camp us and wait for Discharge to go off to paralyna, they are resting or casting something else, the damage mitigated from that Utsusemi cast after Paralyze alone is enough to make Sam/nin worth using.
I can understand if your solo tanking /war being the best option, casting takes alot of time and can really fuck you up solo, but as a duo the recasts are always there and we have no problem having shadows up for almost any attack.

[RKenshin]

How do you time Third Eye use? Getting 1 or 2 anticipates on average is horribly bad, and even on a bad/lucky day I usually don't get that.

Although I agree, I hate using Seigan while /NIN. Trying to balance between Utsesumi and Seigan use is just a huge trouble, and it doesn't usually work. The room for error between using Third Eye without Seigan up, casting Utsesumi with Seigan up, and all the time wasted cancelling/activating over and over just ends up resulting in more damage taken overall. As a general note I wouldn't recommend trying to splice them together consistantly for any chariot. Occasionally using Seigan on some unlucky Utsesumi/recast timer results works but not trying to use both to tank all the time.

However I usually don't have any trouble with Third Eye and paralyze. I agree that getting paralyzed and relying on Third Eye when it isn't already up is a lot worse than getting paralyzed and relying on Utsesumi when it isn't already up, but in general if you have mages that are really fast with curing it... It isn't a much of problem. Especially when the TP attack that AoE paralyzes doesn't clear Third Eye off, so most of the time if you're paralyna'd within 5-10s of it being used you won't even have to worry about not being able to re-use Third Eye because of the Paralyze.

And actually I probably duo-tank with a Bravura WAR (Lhexh) most often. I've solo-tanked and/or tanked in larger groups, and duo/trio tanked between others as MNK/NIN and SAM/WAR on just about all chariots who knows how many times. But I still don't think I'd ever prefer to SAM/NIN for any of them, but again that's me.

[Falaras]

How do you time Third Eye use? Getting 1 or 2 anticipates on average is horribly bad, and even on a bad/lucky day I usually don't get that.

Although I agree, I hate using Seigan while /NIN. Trying to balance between Utsesumi and Seigan use is just a huge trouble, and it doesn't usually work. The room for error between using Third Eye without Seigan up, casting Utsesumi with Seigan up, and all the time wasted cancelling/activating over and over just ends up resulting in more damage taken overall. I wouldn't recommend trying to splice them together consistantly for any chariot.

However I usually don't have any trouble with Third Eye and paralyze. I agree that getting paralyzed and relying on Third Eye is a lot worse than getting paralyzed and relying on Utsesumi, but in general if you have mages that are really fast with curing it... It isn't a huge problem. Especially when the TP attack that AoE paralyzes doesn't clear Third Eye off.

And actually I often duo-tank with a Bravura WAR. I've solo-tanked and/or tanked in larger groups, and duo/trio tanked between others as MNK/NIN and SAM/WAR on just about all chariots who knows how many times. I still don't think I'd ever prefer to SAM/NIN for any of them.

I time it tooo not get hit basically. You took the balancing thing out of context, I don't try to balance them, I use Third Eye for when I get DA'd or fuck up on counting shadows to get Ichi up. I only use Seigan on chariots for when I 2h, and it wears off so fast I just sponge to much MP. Maybe your healers are better then mine, but we usually roll with either a single Rdm + Brd, or very rarely Rdm + Brd + Whm, the Rdm is casting Enfeebs, Haste, and Phalanx II, to find time to cast Paralyna right on the ball isn't the easiest thing. I can think of enough situations where the Chariot attacked at least twice before I got paralyna'd.
Obviously we are two completely diffrent people with two completely diffrent groups and arguing against a situational SJ is going to get us no where.

[RKenshin]

I time it tooo not get hit basically.

It sounds exactly like you're using it the old way. This isn't completely directed at you as this is a topic about SAM and other SAMs will be reading this, but if this does apply for you then it's just two birds with one stone.

Basically, there are two ways you use Third Eye... Most SAMs, myself included, that had SAM 75 long before Hasso/Seigan was released were/are in the old habit of how to use Third Eye... Which is basically, as soon as it's ready whenever it's ready regardless of if you have hate, are fighting a mob, or waiting for a mob to be pulled. The sooner you use it the better, because that means the sooner the recast for the next one is.

However, this is the worst way possible to use Third Eye with the Seigan addition. It took some time and while I'm used to it now, I still often see a lot of SAMs that do it the old way. What's key is that with Seigan, every second that ticks by after the use of Third Eye, your percent chances to anticipate/counter and still have Third Eye up after decreases drastically. It's good in a sense, and bad in another sense. It's good because for the first 5 seconds or so, you have around a 95% chance to continually antipate/counter attacks... This is great because on mobs that use Hundred Fists, timing it right you can easily absorb a good 10-30 attacks in that time. My personal record being 2x, I believe 27? Which is why I often tank MNK mobs in Dynamis/Limbus/etc.

But, as I said, this decreases over time until you're basically at a 15-20% chance to continually anticipate/counter 20s and higher into the duration.

So with this in mind, you have to actually time your Third Eye use correctly to get the most out of every use. This means that it's basically only used when you're going to grab hate and have it on you, which with SAM is pretty easy to predict. We don't have much for melee DoT so it's not common to pull hate through that form, but we do spam a heavy damage WS (which is the most common way to get hate). So, before every WS, you use Third Eye and immediately WS right after. Personally I try to just use Provoke as often as I can, and ensure I get hate right away just because Amano DoT can pull hate unexpectadly. But when I control the hate on the mob, I can easily avoid damage just through knowing I'll have hate and can use Third Eye right away to get the most out of the number of anticipates.

Using it the old way, you'll almost always get 1-2 anticipates/counters and 3 only on occasion just because on average you're not going to pull hate until the last half of it's use.

You took the balancing thing out of context, I don't try to balance them, I use Third Eye for when I get DA'd or fuck up on counting shadows to get Ichi up. I only use Seigan on chariots for when I 2h, and it wears off so fast I just sponge to much MP.

I didn't take it out of context, you misread what I was trying to say.

Me agreeing with you and making a general statement about how what you're pointing out is correct, isn't taking something you said out of conext at all.

Maybe your healers are better then mine, but we usually roll with either a single Rdm + Brd, or very rarely Rdm + Brd + Whm, the Rdm is casting Enfeebs, Haste, and Phalanx II, to find time to cast Paralyna right on the ball isn't the easiest thing.

If it matters, our usual setups are BRD + either a RDM or a WHM, or BRD + RDM + WHM.

Obviously we are two completely diffrent people with two completely diffrent groups and arguing against a situational SJ is going to get us no where.

Not completely true. Us both offering our experiences/opinions and views on both topics just helps to make this post all the more informative, in one way or another.

Whether or not one of us is more correct or not doesn't matter for this post, but what does is that both situations are represented fairly. Which is basically what we're doing in these debates.

[Max™]

I War/Sam, so I tend to get hate more regularly from DoT, so Im usually putting TE's up as I'm being swung at, but I found a really simple little thing that has helped me a lot, I put a /wait 1, /ja "Third Eye" <me> line in my WS macro, since theres no gear swaps actually in it, the eye winds up going off during the last hit of Raging Rush and gives me a nice fresh set to tank with. Someone I was talking too called it dumb, not sure why since fresh eye > any other eye, and on PS2 I don't have problem with the macro misfiring due to lag. (well, except when I'm riding Hasso for whatever reason)

Your post there, Ruke, gets me thinking, wonder what the best method to test Seiganed Third Eye's average number of anticipates at any given time after use, AND after other anticipates would be, doesn't seem like it would be too hard to do it with just -eva gear and a mob that has good accuracy against you.

I know it feels like a smoothly decreasing slope from 100% with the first eye when you're attacked instantly, but around 10-15 seconds into the recast it feels like it drops off severely, to where getting more than 1 eye after 15 seconds without taking a swing is surprising.

Also: Someone else tell me they remember Counter not taking eyes before the adjustment, I was farming KS/skilling parry/soloing most of 74 as the adjustment hit, and Counter went from prolonging TE and never taking the last eye to taking the last eye from time to time, which personally felt like a nerf.

[Falaras]

That is news to me, I've never heard of Seigan getting worse as time passed, but I also never took the time to test it. I'm not sure what that could mean for /war vs /nin for chariots as I have no experience with timing Third Eye. Maybe I should test this but I doubt my LS would let me. How do you deal with Mortal Revolution? That has hit me for over 1400 before, even in -physical gear that is a ton of damage to be taking.

[RKenshin]

Your post there, Ruke, gets me thinking, wonder what the best method to test Seiganed Third Eye's average number of anticipates at any given time after use, AND after other anticipates would be, doesn't seem like it would be too hard to do it with just -eva gear and a mob that has good accuracy against you.

I know it feels like a smoothly decreasing slope from 100% with the first eye when you're attacked instantly, but around 10-15 seconds into the recast it feels like it drops off severely, to where getting more than 1 eye after 15 seconds without taking a swing is surprising.

I've thought of trying to but it just seems too monotonousy difficult and aggravating to do correctly. I feel like with how often I use it and how long I've used it for, I can safely estimate it anyway. So doing a test over 100 hits would just be kind of overkill.

Also: Someone else tell me they remember Counter not taking eyes before the adjustment, I was farming KS/skilling parry/soloing most of 74 as the adjustment hit, and Counter went from prolonging TE and never taking the last eye to taking the last eye from time to time, which personally felt like a nerf.

I'm pretty sure I remember Counter always being able to take the last eye.

EDIT:

That is news to me, I've never heard of Seigan getting worse as time passed, but I also never took the time to test it. I'm not sure what that could mean for /war vs /nin for chariots as I have no experience with timing Third Eye. Maybe I should test this but I doubt my LS would let me. How do you deal with Mortal Revolution? That has hit me for over 1400 before, even in -physical gear that is a ton of damage to be taking.

Timing it makes a really big difference as far as how reliably Third Eye is IMO, being able to use it so you can get at least 3 anticipates around 90% of the time (if a mob is continually attacking you) makes a really big difference as opposed getting 1-2 90% of the time.

If you want to test it I'd go for exp mobs and the like first, it can be pretty difficult to start on rougher mobs because you'll worry about getting hit and jump the gun on using Third Eye before you even have hate. It's an odd thing to describe, but you kind of have to get used to feeling 'naked' and only use it when the time is right.

Mortal Rev is definitely the hardest thing to deal with as far as Chariots go, which is why I eat tacos and don't use berserk there. But, with -damage taken gear, it usually does around 500-700 damage max, and it's managable since it doesn't normally use that attack too often. And other than that attack and some AoE, people don't take too much damage through other means for our usual setups on him.

[Max™]

See, that is maddening, since the change was made we can't go back and test, but I distinctly remember getting more eyes on average, and counter being a prolonging effect, getting 4-6 Anticipates was common, especially if a Counter kicked in, since they seemed to "pause" the timer that determines when it goes bad.

I use Seigan to solo a lot, so I'm always watching my anticipates, but yeah it does seem like the first 10 seconds are primo, and any swings into that period will give 2-4 Anticipates, but as the timer wears on you get a lot of 1 eye and gone action.

[Kaeko]

I was reading over your descriptions for each boss, Ruk, and I noticed that you change your strategy on AC because of Armored Chariot's special move. You can actually avoid this move altogether using terrain. We pin this thing between one of the 2 pillars in the open room and it cannot use the special attack as long as the person with hate has his back to the wall.

We've done only 2 ACs using this I think (pretty inactive in Salvage now...) but it's been fool-proof thusfar (we're using SAM tanks as well). We got this tip from the Japanese side of our LS that goes much more often than us.

[TB]

I was reading over your descriptions for each boss, Ruk, and I noticed that you change your strategy on AC because of Armored Chariot's special move. You can actually avoid this move altogether using terrain. We pin this thing between one of the 2 pillars in the open room and it cannot use the special attack as long as the person with hate has his back to the wall.

Thats pretty damn cool Kaeko. Thanks for sharing.

[Geneyus]

After 1-2 TP moves your mages should be able to time when WS are going off and should cast around that. Nothing like a bad para proc to wreck a day!

[Arkanna]

I was reading over your descriptions for each boss, Ruk, and I noticed that you change your strategy on AC because of Armored Chariot's special move. You can actually avoid this move altogether using terrain. We pin this thing between one of the 2 pillars in the open room and it cannot use the special attack as long as the person with hate has his back to the wall.

We've done only 2 ACs using this I think (pretty inactive in Salvage now...) but it's been fool-proof thusfar (we're using SAM tanks as well). We got this tip from the Japanese side of our LS that goes much more often than us.

I don't quite get this. Perhaps I just can't picture it in my head ... you say you pin the chariot between 1 of the 2 pillars in the open room. Between 1 of the 2 pillars and what, the wall? Would you mind whipping something up so I can visualize this? MS Paint 4tw!

[Kaeko]

I was reading over your descriptions for each boss, Ruk, and I noticed that you change your strategy on AC because of Armored Chariot's special move. You can actually avoid this move altogether using terrain. We pin this thing between one of the 2 pillars in the open room and it cannot use the special attack as long as the person with hate has his back to the wall.

We've done only 2 ACs using this I think (pretty inactive in Salvage now...) but it's been fool-proof thusfar (we're using SAM tanks as well). We got this tip from the Japanese side of our LS that goes much more often than us.

I don't quite get this. Perhaps I just can't picture it in my head ... you say you pin the chariot between 1 of the 2 pillars in the open room. Between 1 of the 2 pillars and what, the wall? Would you mind whipping something up so I can visualize this? MS Paint 4tw!

I'll try to find a screenshot of the positioning when I get home. I believe this idea of preventing the special move was first discussed like weeks after people first reached AC back in Februrary. The concept is it requires some kind of "wind up" area around it in order to use it. If you inhibit this area, it will not use it. I believe using a corner works too, i.e. have your players all stand together in the corner and AC will face the corner. It's left and right sides are immediately tangent to the 2 walls and would inhibit the use of MR due to lack of wind up area.

[Wizerd]

I was reading over your descriptions for each boss, Ruk, and I noticed that you change your strategy on AC because of Armored Chariot's special move. You can actually avoid this move altogether using terrain. We pin this thing between one of the 2 pillars in the open room and it cannot use the special attack as long as the person with hate has his back to the wall.

We've done only 2 ACs using this I think (pretty inactive in Salvage now...) but it's been fool-proof thusfar (we're using SAM tanks as well). We got this tip from the Japanese side of our LS that goes much more often than us.

I don't quite get this. Perhaps I just can't picture it in my head ... you say you pin the chariot between 1 of the 2 pillars in the open room. Between 1 of the 2 pillars and what, the wall? Would you mind whipping something up so I can visualize this? MS Paint 4tw!

I'll try to find a screenshot of the positioning when I get home. I believe this idea of preventing the special move was first discussed like weeks after people first reached AC back in Februrary. The concept is it requires some kind of "wind up" area around it in order to use it. If you inhibit this area, it will not use it. I believe using a corner works too, i.e. have your players all stand together in the corner and AC will face the corner. It's left and right sides are immediately tangent to the 2 walls and would inhibit the use of MR due to lack of wind up area.

You sir, are a god, if this works. I'll be trying it out next Arrapago. ;p

[Kaeko]

Hmm sorry I don't seen to have a pic of it.

I have seen this work myself though. Actually I've never killed this mob not using this strategy before. First time I saw it was with the JP team in my LS and they abuse this. We've only seen MR when people were blatently out of place. The thing is it has knockback - so once it does happen to get one off, you're at high risk of seeing it again sometimes. This seems to be a semi-common strat around their circle. I'll try to find more info about it and see what they say.

[Arkanna]

It's ok, it's good information. I'm still puzzled on the positioning, and regardless, thanks for the info. Once my group is done with the Bhaflau 35's path, I might have to look into this.

[Zilong]

We tried clipping AC on the pillar so it's on a level above the tank, and I didn't see it use mortal revolution before we eventually wipe since I forgot that seigan wore off in 5 minutes, and my cotank died earlier since the RDM have leadfoot and did not move to cure him when the pillar blocks the sigh range, and the BRD is a fucking retard and subs BLM to an already shorthanded 5 man run.

Took down AC to like 75% with just solo tanking on SAM, didn't see it using MR once, but I'm still wondering if that was just pure luck, since this isn't the first time a minimal amount of MR is used by AC.

[Arkanna]

We tried clipping AC on the pillar so it's on a level above the tank, and I didn't see it use mortal revolution before we eventually wipe since I forgot that seigan wore off in 5 minutes, and my cotank died earlier since the RDM have leadfoot and did not move to cure him when the pillar blocks the sigh range, and the BRD is a fucking retard and subs BLM to an already shorthanded 5 man run.

Took down AC to like 75% with just solo tanking on SAM, didn't see it using MR once, but I'm still wondering if that was just pure luck, since this isn't the first time a minimal amount of MR is used by AC.

Oh, so the whole intention is to make AC "climb" the pole sort of? I think I understand now. Thanks

[Zilong]

We tried clipping AC on the pillar so it's on a level above the tank, and I didn't see it use mortal revolution before we eventually wipe since I forgot that seigan wore off in 5 minutes, and my cotank died earlier since the RDM have leadfoot and did not move to cure him when the pillar blocks the sigh range, and the BRD is a fucking retard and subs BLM to an already shorthanded 5 man run.

Took down AC to like 75% with just solo tanking on SAM, didn't see it using MR once, but I'm still wondering if that was just pure luck, since this isn't the first time a minimal amount of MR is used by AC.

Oh, so the whole intention is to make AC "climb" the pole sort of? I think I understand now. Thanks

That's my guess, but it might not be the one kaeko is talking about, and I'm not 100% sure that making it clip a pillar is the way to lock MR, since it's possible that could just me being lucky with my WS.

[Prismatics]

I learned quite a bit reading from this thread.... its just after the meds TP gear Ws Gear Archery gear food arrows random crap etc. I got no GD room to put in any Defense marco gear Maybe after expansion's 70 inventory gobbie bag, that'll manage just fine.