Running Salvage in a large endgame shell

[Kylen]

Just wondering... for those of you who are in large endgame shells (40+ people) that also do Salvage, how do you organize it? Is Salvage considered an "official" LS activity that is organized and run by the leaders? Is your Salvage group open to any LS members who want to participate (possibly splitting up to do multiple zones if too many people show up), or is it a closed static group? If it's closed membership, does your LS have more than one group that runs?

Is it even possible to run Salvage as a casual LS activity like Limbus, where you take whomever happens to show up on a given night and put together your party/zone strategy on the fly based on the jobs available, or do you rely on near-100% attendance from members?

[Therin]

Since taking more than 12 people to Salvage is generally a bad idea (unless you're specifically killing LBC or something) your best bet is to do two runs simultaneously to split up your attendance, or, just run an invite-only group. Since the latter option can sometimes encourage elitism or clique-mentality and can be bad for morale, doing multiple runs is probably the path you should take.

[Darkmoon]

I run a seperate Salvage static with 12 members of the main shell.

Trying to run a Salvage group with 40 interchanging members or however many you may have woudl be a orgizational nightmare. I think the #1 thing that needs to happen with a salvage group is they need to all become a very finely tuned machine. Everyone needs to be on the same page, and everyone needs to know the stuff in a lot of detail. This just cant happen effectivly if your constantly swaping members. Even when we get our full 12 for some runs its hard to run as 12 ppl is just a lot for some zones/runs.

with a 40+ member LS you probaly can run 2-3 Statics if you ahve 2-3 people that can each lead thier own static. And you can probaly have a lot os success if you ahve a LS web site to share experiences/strats/ideas about each run between the groups.

Above all, Salvage is just not the right event for some people, in a run where say you have 12 ppl, and 11 ppl are on the ball, passing fast, never afk, and you have that one space cadet, thats afk constantly, not passing, not watching blood aggro, etc. Well that one bad egg can ruin a run. So you really need to be very selective, and get it into everyone mind that Salvage isn't a laxed event like Limbus, or Farming etc. Its 100mins fo full attention, and everyone on top of thier game.

So save your self the nightmare of LS Salvage, as you will always have those ppl that only want to do it for the gear, but will not dedicate the time/effort thats needed for the event, and ultimaly bring down the rest the group on each and every run.

[Ryko]

Salvage has set days and general time frame in our shell but groups that are set up can go whenever they feel like as long as theyre not doing it to skip out on another event or camp. Our camps aren't mandatory but you will get rather stupid looks if you're skipping faf 4+ to dick around with gyroscopic gears. Otherwise it's not an "LS activity" I think at most 20 people in our shell do salvage, 1 group of 8 much moreso than the other 12 or so.

[Lyramion]

Best is to split up the LS into different smaller groups like...

- Nutcases who want to go every day
- People who want to go 3-4 times a week
- People who want to o 1-2 times a week & people who you think will bail on salvage

[Churchill]

We do Salvage LS only but it's seperate of general LS activities (ie we have different lotting and attendance rules, since generally we have no lot or attendance rules) and not mandatory.

It does work a lot better if it's the same core group each run because you don't get any more efficient by swapping members in and out each time.

[Zosi]

Is it even possible to run Salvage as a casual LS activity like Limbus, where you take whomever happens to show up on a given night and put together your party/zone strategy on the fly based on the jobs available, or do you rely on near-100% attendance from members?

We run it like that in our LS, and it works for us. We have about 20-25 people who can potentially show up, and we generally have between 10 and 15 people for runs. Sometimes we ask people to sit out if they're unlikely to get enough cells to be useful, but we generally don't split up unless we have 16+ people and two relatively easy runs to do.

It's definitely the "zerg" approach compared to something like a 6-man farming group where everyone shows up every run, but it fits in better with our LS attitude towards not excluding people. One of the downsides is that we have many more unfinished 35s than most groups, because it's harder to schedule MB or pop NM runs when people who get 35s can't necessarily make every run. Despite that, we've completed 16 pieces and have 8 more waiting on 15/25s, so I'd say we aren't doing too badly.

[Damane]

tried running salvage in our LS, but lack of interest + allways delaying salvage because of *urg* kings for 2-3 hours + a 2. salvage group in the shell + people that were too lazy to get ther assault points ready, it was bad. I just did my outside of the endgame, salvage LS, with fixed time, no delaying etc. small group of 10 poeple, since 1+ month running smoothly, no delaying of events etc. Its better to rip it of the main LS. I have now also members from other HNM LS and we are doing together very fine. (fucking skirmish pephredo pop finally lol) The leaders of my HNM LS are not happy that I drag people out of king camps with salvage, but I dont care, everyone has their own set prioritys and I made my prioritys clear when I joined (salvage priority over kings, since its more fun).

[Kylen]

It's definitely the "zerg" approach compared to something like a 6-man farming group where everyone shows up every run, but it fits in better with our LS attitude towards not excluding people.

Yeah this is a big one for us - we've always tried to maintain a non-exclusionary atmosphere in the LS. I'm a little afraid of what would happen if we started 1-2 private closed groups and then later had to tell some LS members that they are SOL for Salvage because either they're not very skilled/don't have good jobs for it, or because they just joined the LS too late after the groups had formed. Right now we have 5 separate Nyzul Assault statics in the LS, some of whom are close to having all the gear they want from it and others who just started. At the same time we've had quite a few members say that they'd like to do Salvage either now or in the near future, but no one has stepped up and volunteered to lead it. Personally, I hope to gradually ease into Salvage by cutting our Nyzul runs back to 3-4 tags/week in a couple months, and start off doing Salvage 1-2 nights per week. I just don't want to see it cause any strife in the LS; we've already had quite a few issues trying to schedule our Nyzul runs around Limbus, Dynamis, and other LS events.

Best is to split up the LS into different smaller groups like...

- Nutcases who want to go every day
- People who want to go 3-4 times a week
- People who want to o 1-2 times a week & people who you think will bail on salvage

That's a very good point too. I'm sure we have some people in the LS who would like to run 5 times per week and others who would only have time for 1-2 runs per week. Of course then you have the people who say they'd do 5 per week but lose interest, and those who start off doing 1-2 runs/week and later decide they want to do it more because it's fun and/or they're anxious to get their 35 pieces.

[Avinor]

I'm the current leader for my linkshell's salvage department. We've been running formally since March, though some regulars were doing exploratory runs since it came out. Its not an official linkshell event, so its outside the shell's point system. Leaders figured salvage wasn't able to be regulated under that points system and it isn't. One downside to it not being considered an 'official' event is that it can get pushed around in terms of scheduling/priority, but for the most part its not a problem since its scheduled in the evening after the official events for the day are all over. Its open to anyone in the shell, and sometimes people come for a taste of salvage, but usually its people who are in it for an extended period. We also have 1 person from outside the shell who regularly comes, though he is a good friend of one of our most active salvage members. We have enough show up regularly that I can't remember the last time I've had to cancel a regular run based on lack of people, and we usually have enough to do 2 runs.

We have our primary runs on Tuesday/Thursday/Saturday. We also have extra runs on Sundays and sometimes on Wednesdays, but Dynamis on Mondays and Fridays takes up too much time to schedule runs. We made a basic points system for Salvage since our runs are open to the shell, but we've tried to keep it simple enough (35s you win wipe your points to encourage point rollover, 25s and 15s are free though people with 35s get priority). On most Wednesday/Sunday runs we swap the rules to be freelot - no point priority, though 35s won stil cost a limited amount of points and you don't earn an attendance point for those days. Points sometimes pile up, but thats due more to the low drop rates.

Often the biggest job/headache is getting the runs organized once its time to gather. Since its not a fully static group there isn't a small range of people who will show up on a given day. However after months of doing it you'll get a feel for who your regulars are. There are sometimes shortages of specific jobs - early on it was a RDM or WHM, then THFs were in short supply, and these days we're typically in need of heavy tankable melees (i.e. MNKs, but SAMs have been able to fill that role which has made it easier to fill spots). However by shortages I mean for making 2 seperate groups, which we often do. And thats where it can get frustrating - when 12-14 people show up you want desperately to do 2 runs, but it can be hard making 2 effective groups with the people you have - based on Jobs available, desires/needs for drops (35s or 25s), and also experience. I'll lead and call cells for my group, but I need a veteran to do the same for the other group which limits who I can put where. You also want to make sure each group has a core of highly experienced people to help shepard newer people and keep the run going smoothly and quickly.

All this gets even worse when other events run late and we have to get moving quickly - some east coasters can't start salvage past a certain time because they need sleep, people realize they need AP so they try to get a quick assualt going, people log on or come back after I've already started making groups, etc. Then you have to either cut off new arrivals or force people to run back and change jobs which can take a while too. I really hate entering a zone with a 3-party alliance but every now and then it just happens because you don't have the time to delicately cleave the people you have into 2 effective groups. So we're certainly not as efficient as more dedicated, static groups, but we do well.

In summation, some factors that will greatly help you get an open salvage group going in your LS:
-People who are eager and will come regularly. Have them become thoroughly informed in the operations of a run, from calling cells to picking routes and the strategies/tactics used for various enemies. If you have multiple people who you can simply tell to 'run this group in this zone', your life will be vastly easier. It also greatly accelerates your pace if certain key jobs know what they're supposed to do without you having to tell them or explain.
-Members with the core jobs needed, and multiple jobs for flexibility. Most jobs can function in salvage, but some are better than others, some are vital to runs, and some are only good in limited numbers. Once you know who your regulars are you'll know what jobs are most needed. Eventually people will be able to anticipate what job they'll be coming as.
-Time slots that people can come. I know some people can't make our current time slots, but its really the only time available so thats what it is.
-Regular sources for AP. This is the responsibility of the individual, but once you start holding 3-4 runs a week people can run out. They need to ensure they have a steady stream of AP coming in if they want to keep attending.

[Alleya]

Lots of good replies in this thread. Short answer from me is: Don't.

Most simple reason is, the drop rates suck. Either you rotate zones and take many many months to complete 1 piece, or you do one zone and piss people off by farming 1 piece for 1 person for months. It just won't end well. Not to mention the complications of only being able to take 18 people out of 40, the nightmare of "what if this thing I want in the other zone drops" that comes if you try to split up, and the utter SUCK of having more than 12 people for any zone that's not bhaf. Save yourself the headache and let the people who want to do it organize their own unofficial runs.

SE got a lot of flak for calling it a mini game, but it really is. It's an absolute organizational nightmare if you're dealing with more than 18 people.

[Bakthi]

What we ended up with is 2 official LS Salvage nights. Any LS people can sign up for these, and we will generally fit them in. We usually end up with one 6-7 person run and a 10+ person run on those nights. It's basically the same people going every time, with a few people that only come sometimes. It's not a required event, and some people just don't have the steady AP stream or interest.

We also have a group of about 6 people that does extra runs outside of these times. We'll take an extra person or so depending on what we're doing, although one of our regular runs is during the daytime since we all have that time free; most people in the shell aren't around then. Other people are free to form other groups to go more often but...they don't. Unsurprisingly, this group was built around my Assault static. We don't do runs during other LS events, of course.

So, this is kind of a balance. We have a group that is quite efficient and runs together regularly, and then we have runs to include anyone with enough AP to handle it. Sometimes our small group will get split between the two runs, but that's not completely awful because then each group gets some people with more experience. Obviously the smaller group is completing pieces faster, but that benefits the more casual folks in the LS too, because then we're out of their way when pieces drop on the LS runs (and most of this group was at/near the top of the lists anyway).

And yes, the more people you have, the harder it is to try and schedule things. Especially if you get to doing 2 runs in one night, and you have to try to make it so nobody on run #1 gets screwed out of something that drops on run #2 because he's first on both items.

[Churchill]

One other thing to note: Going once or twice a week will burn peoples desires to go with the crappy drop rates. In salvage when you get drops you get them like crazy and when you don't you'll want to QQ to death. Having at least 4 runs a week and if you're capable, 7 (with the extra 3 being 35 farming in Silver Seas/Arrapago and maybe a Bhaflau if you've never seen Mad Bomber and need Machas Cuffs) will get more people into it and help finish gear faster.

[ryskar]

Set time on two days of the week. We have a combination of some people from our dynamis and some people from our endgame, but endgame/salvage/dynamis are pretty much led by the same guy anyway. Seperate ls, seperate 'points' etc.

edit: we also only have like 9-10 people. We need a dedicated/merited RDM.