Enmity testing - Still Going!

[shirizaan]

You know what would rock is if someone on the Windower team could make a plugin to track your CE and VE!

Hell, for that matter a log parser could even do this... but do we know if these values are contained in memory?

[fussel]

I like how Provoke turns out to be exactly like the guide book in this thread shows.

[shirizaan]

Given that Provoke is purely Volatile Emnity, this data tends to lend itself to defining DRK as the preferred Ninja sub job.

I mean... getting to 10,000 Cumulative Emnity is the goal... and then generating further hate via Volatile Emnity. Since all WAR has is VE, DRK would be better suited for keeping hate.

[Max™]

Which pretty closely matches what we've all known?

Voke is great for spinning the mob back to you, but it wanders easily, Nin/War's can do rockin tanking in short fights, or with big SATA's stuck on em, but the hate tools are similar to War/Nin's, except the Ni jutsu's don't suck completely to cast.

Thus Rdm/Nin, Pld/Nin, Nin/Brd prenerf, Nin/Drk having the ability to get over WHAT NINE THOUSAAAANNDDD!!!!

[Hanyoko]

Hmmm. So could the explain the claim issues that are seen? If perhaps an unclaimed mob gains equal amounts of CE from multiple sources it remains unclaimed but chases the person with the last action.

[Max™]

Hmmm. So could the explain the claim issues that are seen? If perhaps an unclaimed mob gains equal amounts of CE from multiple sources it remains unclaimed but chases the person with the last action.

It looks like they added a period of time just after a mob spawns where it requires a certain threshold of total enmity before it gets claimed.

When mobs link/sight aggro, they have a certain amount of enmity on you, but are still yellow since you're engaged to something else, so until that enmity is overcome it stays on you.

If other actions are applied after an attempt to change target of the mob, to get it back, it will sit in that limbo state until something like Provoke hits it.

I don't think I've ever provoked a mob and had it stay yellow, but I haven't done a spamfest HNM pop frenzy.

It isn't just CE that turns em red though, had a bard pulling off of the two or three dolls we had coming into camp at Despot the other day, it would be yellow until someone started damaging it, or voked it, because of the hate our Blm's had from Sleepga.

I caught him doing one, voked it back which got it Red... but then it turned out he had put a DoT on it to be a dick, and in the chaos of Blm's getting smacked around by unsleepable dolls a meltdown got through, GM got called, and as I was speaking to the GM about it.. HE DID IT AGAIN and got a (likely just 3 day) ban :D.

*has 2 Horns notched into his Byakko's axe* 3 more bards and I'm an ace.

[Tonko]

Hmmm. So could the explain the claim issues that are seen? If perhaps an unclaimed mob gains equal amounts of CE from multiple sources it remains unclaimed but chases the person with the most amount of enmity from gear/merits.

Unless it's a taru. Fafnir always comps the tarus.

[Suiram]

Just curious, but would the hypothetical windower plugin be able to account for trick attack hate? Like somehow read who was closest to the enemy in the line between it and the thf or /thf? And even if so, would it run up against the same issue of the tank's plugin not knowing how much +enmity armor/merits the trick attacker had?

[Wizerd]

Just curious, but would the hypothetical windower plugin be able to account for trick attack hate? Like somehow read who was closest to the enemy in the line between it and the thf or /thf? And even if so, would it run up against the same issue of the tank's plugin not knowing how much +enmity armor/merits the trick attacker had?

I imagine if anything, the most it'd be able to do is give you a reading as if the trick attacker had 0 enmity up or down, since yea, you'd come across the same issue.

[Kaeko]

Given that Provoke is purely Volatile Emnity, this data tends to lend itself to defining DRK as the preferred Ninja sub job.

I mean... getting to 10,000 Cumulative Emnity is the goal... and then generating further hate via Volatile Emnity. Since all WAR has is VE, DRK would be better suited for keeping hate.

The goal is generally not going to be just capping your CE I think. I think that most tanking styles right now are limited to just capping CE, but based on the data it seems to be possible to maintain a good VE and eventually cap it as well.

Because the VE decay rate is -60 VE/sec, you need to produce roughly 3600 VE a minute in order to increase VE over time. This is actually possible (but probably difficult). Being able to do so may eventually allow you to reach a "VE cap" (still unproven) and essentially double the tanking hate of the current powerful tanking methods. CE caps on its own eventually, but VE requires constant action to cap.

Based on a test we did last night, Invincible is a whopping 7200 VE (but only 1 CE). Takes exactly 2 minutes to wear off fully. I think a lot of VE values will end up pretty high and may allow you to get more than 3600VE a minute. If this turns out to be possible, this may be the biggest benefit of this testing - if a tank could produce and maintain a both the VE and CE caps, then you would truly have a near perfect tank that couldn't lose hate.

[Kirschy]

If this turns out to be possible, this may be the biggest benefit of this testing - if a tank could produce and maintain a both the VE and CE caps, then you would truly have a near perfect tank that couldn't lose hate.

I'm interested to see how damage dealt equates to VE gained. It would explain why DRKs can reach such increadibly high amounts of hate (Souleater in particular.) My initial feelings are that no VE cap exists(or if it does, it would be impossible to test.) I'm realli enjoying all this new information

[Stromgarde]

I'm interested to see how damage dealt equates to VE gained. It would explain why DRKs can reach such increadibly high amounts of hate (Souleater in particular.) My initial feelings are that no VE cap exists(or if it does, it would be impossible to test.) I'm realli enjoying all this new information

RDM/DRG to get exactly one hit in via jump and then attempt to surpass that using various (fast) methods?

[Xhu]

Just wow - fantastic info thanks so much. I've never seen such a thorough & complicated process of testing explained so clearly and succinctly.

Really interested to see if the enmity from damage can be worked out as precisely.

[Diveos]

/agree

This is fantastic! Thanks so much. I hope a majority of players get to see this.

+Cha on provoke? =p

[HadesBothari]

Thanks a lot Kaeko/Ashira(for the 320 cure 1s). Really nice testing and info. One question though, Would it be ok for me to post this info (conclusions only) on our LS site? I'll be giving full credit to you and BG and links to the site/post.

Edit: For high jump, you could use h2h. Also I'm guessing Super jump takes the players CE to 1 and the wyvern's to 2. Wonder what it does to VE. I'm assuming it sets it to 0 but the fact that you basically do nothing to get hate for another 10 seconds means you'd need more than 600 VE to actually have any VE remaining?

[Khamsin]

/agree

This is fantastic! Thanks so much. I hope a majority of players get to see this.

+Cha on provoke? =p

lol, yeah. Hopefully this will finally show (some) people that CHR has no relation to enmity.

[Kaeko]

Thanks a lot Kaeko/Ashira(for the 320 cure 1s). Really nice testing and info. One question though, Would it be ok for me to post this info (conclusions only) on our LS site? I'll be giving full credit to you and BG and links to the site/post.

Edit: For high jump, you could use h2h. Also I'm guessing Super jump takes the players CE to 1 and the wyvern's to 2. Wonder what it does to VE. I'm assuming it sets it to 0 but the fact that you basically do nothing to get hate for another 10 seconds means you'd need more than 600 VE to actually have any VE remaining?

I think we're letting anyone use it as long as they cite/link with the exception of the Wikis that aren't BGWiki right now.

[HadesBothari]

Thanks Kaeko .. I've even called em kaekos kilokaekos and ashiras!!

[Kachi]

How about some figures for BST pet commands like Fight and Stay? Those are highly spammable with a jug pet.

For that matter, Charm spam looks very nice on its own. 320 CE every 15 seconds for free? Why hellooooo /bst. Don't think you can use Charm with a pet though At least you can't get the bind effect.

I'm curious to know if those pet commands produce CE or VE. If CE, mainly just interested in if it produces more than Charm. If VE, good lawd. Cap CE with Charm, then grab any pet and start spamming pet commands for VE.

[Max™]

How about some figures for BST pet commands like Fight and Stay? Those are highly spammable with a jug pet.

For that matter, Charm spam looks very nice on its own. 320 CE every 15 seconds for free? Why hellooooo /bst. Don't think you can use Charm with a pet though At least you can't get the bind effect.

I'm curious to know if those pet commands produce CE or VE. If CE, mainly just interested in if it produces more than Charm. If VE, good lawd. Cap CE with Charm, then grab any pet and start spamming pet commands for VE.

When I did Sam, I was duotanking with a Bst/Nin in one party, and it worked oddly well, spamming Charm let him turn the mob off me pretty well with me voking/beating on it.