Enmity testing - Still Going!

[Kaeko]

Some more stopwatch testing:

Dispel, Sleep, Sleep II seem to have the same VE as CE.
Warcry gives 1 CE and ~300 VE per player affected (tested up to 3).
Barfira gives 1 CE and ~80 VE per player affected (up to 3).
Shield Bash for 12 damage gave 1 CE and ~900 VE. I was surprised that it was only 1 CE since it did a large chunk of the Tiny Mandragora's HP in damage. Maybe Shield Bash damage is hateless?

Pulling with a spell gives +200 CE:
BRD pulls with Silence
RDM Stun + 21 cures to pull hate -> 201 CE

It doesn't seem to give a lasting +Enmity bonus, as after a Dispel from each of us we still had balanced CE. It does seem to give a significant amount of VE as well, but I'm not sure how much.

I'm not sure how this fits in with /healing mages stealing hate from a pull with missed ranged attack. Perhaps a missed /ra doesn't get the +200 CE bonus.

Pulling with Finale + 20 cures = Dispel, so Finale gives 100 CE.
Stopwatched at ~240 VE.

I'll check other BRD songs later.

I suspect that Finale and NIN debuffs CE and VE really add up to the same number as Paralyze et al VE, rather than being ~20 different.

I also repeated the L3 Sirvente test with the same result as before.
BTW, Zozma and Dragonade are helping me with my testing.

Thanks for the info. I don't know about the accuracy of the statement saying Sleep, Sleep II, and Dispel have the same VE as CE though. Just from eye balling and using Dispel so much, I don't think the VE on that is quite as high as 320VE. I'll try to do this one personally later on. I went ahead and added everything else though.

[Devinry]

Any indication on whether or not Dispel needs to "land" (i.e. actually dispel something) in order to generate the CE?

It doesn't.

I don't think there's any action you can perform that causes no hate if it fails to do anything. Even curing for 0 damage or a miss against an enemy causes hate.

Except Gauge, I suppose, but that doesn't really count.

Yeah, I know every action generates some hate. Just wanted to make sure of the conditions for the full amount of CE for Dispel. I assumed it didn't have to land, but hey, you never know.

Thanks for the quick replies. This is all making NIN/RDM look more and more appealing.

[Liselle]

You mean from a tanking perspective? It's already the king DD from 40 until Colibri.

[Kaeko]

Part V is up:

http://kanican.livejournal.com/14465.html

I went ahead and put the Foe Sirvente LVL3 data you tested on there. It's a little premature but I trust the data and even provided a possible explanation to why it's messed up. I think we need some testing verification on Sirvente but, at this point, I'm leaning towards SE just screwed up their +/- signs. I think the decay rate is lowerd 10% on lvl1 Sirvente, or from -60VE/sec to -54VE/sec. The description of Sirvente says each level increases the effect by 5%, which I am guessing is 5% of the 60VE/sec decay rate. Maybe they accidently added 5% and made leveling Sirvente go to -10%, -5%, 0% instead of -10%, -15%, -20%. I don't know, it's just a possible explanation.

The Enmity Table has also been heavily updated and reformatted. There are a total of 358 non-Cure, non-Damage abilities and spells in the game right now and we have 87 completed and 100 half-completed.

At this point, the only MAJOR finding we need to verify is the "VE Cap" and if it exists or not. Other than that, I think we're ready to move into Damage and Cure curves. I know a few groups have already gotten a head start on that.

[Khrno]

You mean from a tanking perspective? It's already the king DD from 40 until Colibri.

Not related to the topic, but i found this rather funny, NIN the king DD from 40 until Colibri? Maybe in 2006, unless my war-sam-drg parses lie.


Anyway, forgive my intermission.

[Liselle]

Not related to the topic, but i found this rather funny, NIN the king DD from 40 until Colibri? Maybe in 2006, unless my war-sam-drg parses lie.

They don't lie, you just have been parsing against NIN/WARs who melee. It's NIN/RDM that's the winrar, and the /RDM is for Magic Attack Bonus and Fast Cast. You don't melee except as something to do while the tank tries fruitlessly to pull the mob off your face, or in the slight downtime between recasts.

It's to bad that Dispel doesn't come subbed until 64, because that'd introduce it potentially as a tank when Lessers nerf your damage output. C'est la vie.

[Tour]

Some more stopwatch testing:
I'm not sure how this fits in with /healing mages stealing hate from a pull with missed ranged attack. Perhaps a missed /ra doesn't get the +200 CE bonus.

Missing a RA does not give the 200 bonus, but seems to add 1 CE. Ranged Attacking the mob for 0 results in 201 CE, however, so yeah... probably has implications for hitting for zero as well. Healing mages steal hate from a puller, even with 201 CE, though, so go figure.

I guess I should have posted this out here earlier

edit: smily face turned out angry o.o;

[Kaeko]

I'll try to make a note that the "pulling hate" doesn't fit with missing an attack like a ranged attack.

Also, if anyone has LVL2 Foe Sirvente and is willing to test, I would be very grateful. I guess someone with LVL3 Foe Sirvente could test as well - if it is indeed broken, then it doesn't hurt to remove points from it so it would be easy to try LVL2.

[Delekii]

Actinic Burst 180ce 1020ve
Amplification 320ce
Aweful Eye 1ce
Blank Gaze 320ce
Chaotic Eye 1ce
Cocoon 1ce
Diamondhide 1ce 300ve per person (so 6ce 1800ve for full party DH)
Enervation 1ce
Exuviation 640ce 640ve
Feather Barrier 1ce
Feather Tickle 1ce
Filamented hold 1ce
Frightful Roar 1ce
Geist Wall 320ce
Infrasonics 1ce
Jettatura 180ce 1020ve
Light of Penance 1ce
Lowing 1ce
Memento Mori 320ce
Metallic Body 1ce
MP Drainkiss (0 mp drained) 1ce
Plasma Charge 1ce 480ve
Reactor Cool 1ce
Refuelling 1ce
Saline Coat 1ce
Sandspray 1ce
Sheepsong 320ce
Soporific 320ce
Sound Blast 1ce
Stinking gas 320ce
Temporal Shift 180ce 1020ve
Venom Shell 1ce
Voracious Trunk 320ce
Warm-Up 320ce
Yawn 320ce
Zephyr mantle 1ce

Pollen, Carrot, Fruit, Healing Breeze are all normal cures, not set hate like Cure5. Exuvation is set hate, the HP it heals don't matter (for reference, it can heal around 90hp). Exuviation is a godly tanking spell. I'm sure we all knew that, but 640ce and 640ve in 1 spell is nuts All our ve numbers are very approximate (we only tested once per spell, and it was just by the number of seconds from point of cast to point of the mob turning).

Testing by Suiram, Capital, Ikarus, Nonolepyro, and myself, all from Pandemonium

[Edrick]

Actinic Burst 180ce 1020ve
Amplification 320ce
Aweful Eye 1ce
Blank Gaze 320ce
Chaotic Eye 1ce
Cocoon 1ce
Diamondhide 1ce 300ve per person (so 6ce 1800ve for full party DH)
Enervation 1ce
Exuviation 640ce 640ve
Feather Barrier 1ce
Feather Tickle 1ce
Filamented hold 1ce
Frightful Roar 1ce
Geist Wall 320ce
Infrasonics 1ce
Jettatura 180ce 1020ve
Light of Penance 1ce
Lowing 1ce
Memento Mori 320ce
Metallic Body 1ce
MP Drainkiss (0 mp drained) 1ce
Plasma Charge 1ce 480ve
Reactor Cool 1ce
Refuelling 1ce
Saline Coat 1ce
Sandspray 1ce
Sheepsong 320ce
Soporific 320ce
Sound Blast 1ce
Stinking gas 320ce
Temporal Shift 180ce 1020ve
Venom Shell 1ce
Voracious Trunk 320ce
Warm-Up 320ce
Yawn 320ce
Zephyr mantle 1ce

Pollen, Carrot, Fruit, Healing Breeze are all normal cures, not set hate like Cure5. Exuvation is set hate, the HP it heals don't matter (for reference, it can heal around 90hp). Exuviation is a godly tanking spell. I'm sure we all knew that, but 640ce and 640ve in 1 spell is nuts All our ve numbers are very approximate (we only tested once per spell, and it was just by the number of seconds from point of cast to point of the mob turning).

Testing by Suiram, Capital, Ikarus, Nonolepyro, and myself, all from Pandemonium

This is quite an impressive list for us BLUs. I bolded a few spells that seem cheap enough and quick enough to get away with having a somewhat viable BLU tank reach the CE cap relatively quickly. I would be very interested in seeing the VE values of these spells to see if they can push the envelope even further once the cap is reached. Probably wouldn't even come close to other viable tank types, but it still may be fun to try out sometime.

[VZX]

AoE debuff spells wouldn't be that effective for tanking. PT Buff (like Diamondhide and Diffusion+Exuviation), however, can be a good tool.

Dele, did you guys check if there's enmity increase once you do convergence?

[Redshift]

I wanted to test BLU spells today or tomorrow, but you beat me to it... =P

Big thank you for the hard work, this is incredibly interesting information. But I have a few questions about your BLU tests.

General question about Diffusion+Exuviation; is it capped at 3 people like some other spells? Is the VE multiplied by the number of people as with the CE?

For the spells with only CE values listed, did you confirm them to be 0 VE? Or are they up for further testing?

[Valyana]

Carnage Elegy, Fire Threnody and Foe Requiem are also 100 CE, ~240 VE (stopwatch).

Foe/Horde Lullaby are both 240 CE. Horde has the same CE with 1 or 2 targets.

Mage's Ballad I/II are 20 CE per player affected (very useful for finding other CE numbers).
Chocobo/Raptor Mazurka are the same.

Sage/Logical Etude are 160 CE, about the same VE.
Hunter's/Archer's Prelude are 20 CE.
Dirge/Sirvente are 20 CE.

Erase is 1 CE, ~480-500 VE.

More to come.

Redshift: I didn't mean that Warcry/Barfira were capped at 3 people, but rather that I had only tested up to 3 people. I assume the effect scales up to a full 6 people.

[eva00r]

VE spike/fast cast
Actinic Burst 180ce 1020ve - 24mp/60recast/0.5 cast time
Jettatura 180ce 1020ve - 37mp/120recast/0.5 cast time
Temporal Shift 180ce 1020ve - 48mp/56recast/0.5 cast time

10k CE makers
Exuviation 640ce 640ve - 40mp/60recast/3cast time
Blank Gaze 320ce - 25mp/10recast/3cast time
Geist Wall 320ce - 35mp/30recast/3cast time
Stinking gas 320ce - 37mp/60recast/4cast time

BLU/NIN could be next excellent tanking job, with correct gears on this guy can reduce recast time by 23% or 25% capped with speed belt. (Turban, Nashira, Homamx3, Loq. Ear, Swift)
Innate m.def trait, bonus m.def trait with cor's roll, saline coat is 60 duration/recast ffs
Gains access to a lot of "Killer" traits through setting/JSE kilij
Can equip -5% p.damage cape, -10% from genbu or -20% from earth staff
Cure with H.Breeze/M.Fruit

The main problem is massive mp usage.

Can anyone confirm that Diffusion + Blu spells multiply CE/VE or not ?
if yes, Diff + Exuviation > Invincible

[Redshift]

Oh, my mistake. >>

But there could still be a cap on the number of people for hate. I think we all know how weird SE can be at times... And on paper, 6 person Exuviation just looks too disgustingly beautiful to be true.

Can anyone confirm that Diffusion + Blu spells multiply CE/VE or not ?
if yes, Diff + Exuviation > Invincible

And the fact you can do it every 15/17.5/20min is just... yeah

[Suiram]

Any spell that doesn't have VE listed, we simply didn't test. The plan was to get all the CE out of the way, then get a rough check of VE on a few spells that felt like they had larger VE values when we were testing CE. Diffusion+Exuviation we only tested up to 3 people because there were only 3 of us at the time, but it stands to reason it would continue up to 6. I actually tanked Khimaira a couple days ago on BLU which was fun and it was easy to keep hate, I just failed at some basic tank stuff like casting ichi over ni but I'm sure it'll just take a bit more practice, and would probably be awesome in the hands of someone who is a practiced tank.

[Edrick]

VE spike/fast cast
Actinic Burst 180ce 1020ve - 24mp/60recast/0.5 cast time
Jettatura 180ce 1020ve - 37mp/120recast/0.5 cast time
Temporal Shift 180ce 1020ve - 48mp/56recast/0.5 cast time

10k CE makers
Exuviation 640ce 640ve - 40mp/60recast/3cast time
Blank Gaze 320ce - 25mp/10recast/3cast time
Geist Wall 320ce - 35mp/30recast/3cast time
Stinking gas 320ce - 37mp/60recast/4cast time

BLU/NIN could be next excellent tanking job, with correct gears on this guy can reduce recast time by 23% or 25% capped with speed belt. (Turban, Nashira, Homamx3, Loq. Ear, Swift)
Innate m.def trait, bonus m.def trait with cor's roll, saline coat is 60 duration/recast ffs
Gains access to a lot of "Killer" traits through setting/JSE kilij
Can equip -5% p.damage cape, -10% from genbu or -20% from earth staff
Cure with H.Breeze/M.Fruit

The main problem is massive mp usage.

Can anyone confirm that Diffusion + Blu spells multiply CE/VE or not ?
if yes, Diff + Exuviation > Invincible

Sounds like Diff + Exuviation would be a thing to use at the start of the battle to get a huge spike towards capping that hate. Chances are, though, you would need refresh and ballad I/II on you to make this effective. That'd give +7 MP/3 seconds. Say you shave off 30% of recast times with hast gear + spell, that's about 14 MP per 10 seconds normal recast spell...

3840 CE right off the bat with Diff + Exuviation... That leaves 6160 to get to cap, sans any shadows lost. Blank Gaze seems to be the most MP efficient thing that's on a reasonable recast at 12.8 CE/MP. So, say you spam that every 7 seconds. 70 seconds will net another 3200 CE, another 70 seconds for a total of 6400 CE. Taking shadows into account, looks like you can hit the cap in around 2 minutes if MP holds up... Say, 600 MP on average for a BLU...
40 for Exuviation, 25*20= 500 MP. So, 540 MP used without any sort of refresh taken into account. Constant refresh of +7/3 sec should give you about 326 MP in that time... So, 214 MP used in 2 minutes, about. You can even throw in 2 more Exuviations, and that'll lessen the amount used even more. Toss on Conserve MP, and you should save even more. Seems very feasable. Once you hit the cap, swap between the big VE ones, and you should be able to sustain hate for a while. In a longer fight, after 15-20 min, you get another huge CE+VE boost with Diff+Exuviation again... Crazy. Toss a COR in that PT, and you're not going to run out of MP. lol.

[VZX]

Now we just need final words on Damage-> TE/CE/VE value
if DD can get 3-5k CE on 1 big hit WS, then boosting big CE wouldn't do much

3840 CE right off the bat with Diff + Exuviation... That leaves 6160 to get to cap

Don't forget, BLU have access to some + enmity gear too
Last night I checked Diff+Exuviation hitting 6 people with +Enmity gear can generate 4.7k+ CE

[Khamsin]

So far, it's interesting that nothing, other than 1 unit actions, have an odd enmity value. For example, we see 320 or 640 or 1800, but no test has turned up 319 or 641 or 1797.

[Kaeko]

Amazing info on the BLU and BRD spells. Updating everything in a sec.