Enmity testing - Still Going!

[Edrick]

Now we just need final words on Damage-> TE/CE/VE value
if DD can get 3-5k CE on 1 big hit WS, then boosting big CE wouldn't do much

3840 CE right off the bat with Diff + Exuviation... That leaves 6160 to get to cap

Don't forget, BLU have access to some + enmity gear too
Last night I checked Diff+Exuviation hitting 6 people with +Enmity gear can generate 4.7k+ CE

Holy crap, that's right. XD I was doing all those calculations without any enmity+ gear. o.O I can think of +18 easy, with probably a bit more out there. Oh yeah, Eris Earrings, that's another 4 or 6 or however much that is... That right there would make it work even better. lol. Even +18 gives an 18% increase to that enmity. So, 18% faster (roughly?)

[VZX]

Now we just need final words on Damage-> TE/CE/VE value
if DD can get 3-5k CE on 1 big hit WS, then boosting big CE wouldn't do much

3840 CE right off the bat with Diff + Exuviation... That leaves 6160 to get to cap

Don't forget, BLU have access to some + enmity gear too
Last night I checked Diff+Exuviation hitting 6 people with +Enmity gear can generate 4.7k+ CE

Holy crap, that's right. XD I was doing all those calculations without any enmity+ gear. o.O I can think of +18 easy, with probably a bit more out there. Oh yeah, Eris Earrings, that's another 4 or 6 or however much that is... That right there would make it work even better. lol. Even +18 gives an 18% increase to that enmity. So, 18% faster (roughly?)

Here's the equip I remember on top of my head
Eris Earringx2 (+6)
Cerb Mantle /+1 (+3 or +4) otherwise Toreador for macro in only(+3)
Homam Manopolas (+2)
Warwolf Belt (+3)
Heroic Boots /+1 (+1 / +2)
Harmonia's Torque/ Ritter Gorget(+3)
Mermaid's Ring (+2)
Cache Nez /Baron's Chapeau(+2)

EDIT: oops, rocl'd

[Rocl]

Warwolf Belt is +3 enmity

[Kaeko]

I have this spreadsheet that basically calculates how good or bad a spell is for tanking.

Exuviate wins wins in nearly every catagory... and it's self targetable, which is incredibly good for kited fights. The diffusion part is just nasty. I can definitely see BLU tanking working - everyone knows about the high MDB traits. The only problem I see is what someone else already mentioned, and that's developing a spam cycle that is reasonable on MP usage.

[Edrick]

Warwolf Belt is +3 enmity

Homam Hands is also +3 >.>

[Kaeko]

Was just thinking... If you use a BLU tanking combo with a COR, say BLU BLU COR RDM WHM BRD, you could open a fight like this...

BLU Diffusion + Exuviation
COR Random Deal (100% you get something with Loaded Deck)
BLU Diffusion + Exuviation

It takes about 40 seconds to pull this off with Haste and assuming you macro in all your enmity gear, you could potentially have a BLU tank capped on CE and with about 9000 VE in under a minute. Using a COR with at least 1 point in loaded deck, you can time it so that you can pull off the double Diffusion+Exuvation every 15-20ish minutes I think

An instant cap on CE and possibly VE as well every 20 minutes...

[Hakamaru]

Just gotta say excellent work to everyone who's contributed to this work. Especially Ashira & Kaeko for the ground-work and well-written documentation.

Now as a NIN/DRK, I found it very interesting to see the CE number for Aspir was so high. Which makes me wonder about Drain (which isn't in the table yet). I did a search to see if anyone's mentioned drain yet, and didn't see anything. So I apologize if this has been talked about elsewhere.

I came up with a way to test Drain, but I'm stuck at work til late tonight. If anyone else would like to run the test for me... it would be very simple. Just target a low-level skeleton so that no actual HP is drained.


Also, all this talk of a windower plugin might not be too far-fetched. Since you guys have things nailed down tight enough to say what the game's actual units are, it shouldn't be too hard to probe FFXI for the CE and VE memory locations, right? Go out and dispel something, then search FFXI memory for a 320. Cast dispel again and see if it changed to 640... etc. Now look at the locations near that, you'll probably find the VE memloc nearby. It would make the data-collection pretty trivial if someone could chug out a windower plugin that read / displayed CE and VE.

Edit : bleh, scratch the windower plugin idea. Forgot that it would be replicated on a per-mob basis. Which probably means it's sitting in heap memory... or worse yet, maintained completely server-side.

[Byrthnoth]

Though it's fairly weak, the fact that you have to do *something* to a monster to get back on its hate list after you log seems to indicate that hate is stored player-side and polled by the server after actions. It explains the /logout thing and the delay between an action and when hate switches that's observed with volatile enmity. An easy way to test this would be to do the same /logout test done by Kanican+Kaeko, logging back in after getting certain degrees away.

Like, I think one of them logged out of their character and logged back in. Next test would be to log out to Playonline and log back in (canceling your session with the FFXI servers). Then shutting down FFXI and restarting it (freeing up the RAM). Finally, shutting down your computer and restarting after 5-10 minutes (presumably clearing RAM) would be the final test.

If enmity is maintained when you log out to PoL and log back in, but not when you shut down FFXI or your computer and restart it, then it's probably stored player side. This also would give mages another way to clear hate =p.

It would make sense if when a player does an action on the monster, FFXI polls that player's updated enmity total and just updates the monster's hate list, which it applies its linear decay function to. Playerside the same thing could easily be accomplished. If you were going to go fishing in memory for it, I'd look for something that's decrementing by 60/second, rather than a specific value. That said . . . PS2oob 4 lyfe! FAK WINDOWERZ!

[eva00r]

More coming ...

From Server Titan, Testers : Alexanderz, Miraine, Aedra

CE/VE Format

Cocoon 1/80
Frightful Roar 1/300
Feather Barrier 1/300
Stinking Gas 320/300
Chaotic Eye 1/300
Feather Tickle 1/300
REfueling 1/300
Reactor Cool 1/480
Awful Eye 1/180
Saline Coat 1/480
Metallic Body 1/300
Warm Up 320/300
Infrasonic 1/300
Lowing 1/300
Sound Blast 1/300
Zyphyr Mantle CE>1 (anyone please confirm this)
Enervation 1/300
Sand Spray 1/640
Divine Seal 1/?
MP Drainkiss 320/? (confirm that 1 ce is wrong)
Regen I/II/III 1/300

----------------------

Well, BLU tanking is extremely possible now.

[Suiram]

MP Drainkiss 320/? (confirm that 1 ce is wrong)

I have 320 written in my notes from our tests, Delekii must have typoed when he wrote that up.

[Byrthnoth]

Hmm... capping cumulative hate is currently accomplished by all of the major tanks in long fights. In fact, it's looking like it's fairly safe to assume everyone has near capped cumulative hate at the end of a really long fight. Volatile hate then becomes the issue, and you need to make more than 1800 every 30 seconds or you get no net gain.

Blue mage has three High-hate spells I can see, all of which have the problem of being AoE:
Actinic Burst - 1020 every 30 seconds for 24MP = 34 hate/second - 1.4 hate/(mp*second)
Jettatura - 1020 every 28 seconds for 37MP = 36.4 hate/second - .98 hate/(mp*second)
Temporal Shift - 1020 every 28 seconds for 48MP = 36.4 hate/second - .76 hate/(mp*second)
Diffusion + Exhuviation - 3840 every 15-20 minutes for 20 MP - good for quick boost, not really worth calculating on a hate/second scale.
Plasma Charge - 480 every 30 seconds for 24 MP - You might want to combine this with Actinic Burst for Auto-refresh anyway
Ice Break + Magnetite Cloud - Probably not reasonable to cast, but they form MAB+10
Saline Coat - MDB +50, decaying down to MAB+10 - Hate uncertain, it would be nice if it was high so you could justify spamming it.

Obviously you're going to have to pick and choose, but it's pretty clear to see that BLU would cap CE quickly and run VE up pretty fast as well, especially when you add in enmity gear. However, for reference:
Stun - 1280 every 22 seconds for 25MP = 58.2 hate/second - 2.3 hate/(mp*second)
Provoke - 1800 every 30 seconds = 60 hate/second

You should be able to test the CE of all spells damaging or otherwise by obtaining double weakened status prior to casting them. They'd all do 0 damage. Also, for testing Sleep/Sleep 2, just pull with Dia instead of Silence.

[Kaeko]

The biggest advantage I see BLU tanks having (1 of these is not a real advantage unles you're a total douche)...

1) Kited fights
In these types of fights, you can't really stand around, so producing constant actions to make up for the VE decay rate is not an option. In this case, the best you can do is just max CE. BLU has a huge advantage in this since exuviation is self target - you don't have to get within 20' range to produce massive CE.

2) Fafhogg MPK
You can probably instant turn fafhogg with just diffusion+exuviation since it's self target and grants really nasty hate. It would be like using invincible except half of the hate doesn't decay and you can use it every 20 minutes.

[Delekii]

The big advantage BLU tank has is they have amazing defenses in both magic and physical, ALONG with their hate gaining ability. As BLU/NIN with minnes, for example, I can have 900 defense, and if I had a second bard for marches, I can also have permanant 30 to 60MDB (saline coat wears off over its recast time, so with halved recasts, it only decays to half strength before it can be re-applied).

The problem is, as people have said, the MP usage is insane. BUT, don't forget that BLU has access to Magic Fruit, which is more MP efficient than Cure4. Chances are, you won't need to spam spam spam, and you will want to be using fruit for the secondary purpose of recovering HP in any event.

I need to get diffusion O_O I didn't know that some spells cap at 3 people, but if Exuviation hate applies to all 6 people, diffusion exuviation with 25 enmity is 10000 split between ce and ve....

[eva00r]

Healing Breeze gives freaking enormous shit of hate for 66 mp, assuming you can heal 6 members with 200hp each.
also, trait + moriggan gives perma 2 ref/tick ... 3 in sanction area and 4 with assault ring. soon to come with blu afv2, i bet there must be a refresh piece.

[Hakamaru]

Ok, just did a test for the CE of drain for no effect. It comes out to be 1 CE.

Test Procedure (so you can check my work):
Go to Gusgen Mines and target Skeleton Warrior
I pull with Silence (I have 4 enmity merits, but irrelevant for puller)
RDM/BLM #1 with 0 enmity casts Dispel, then cure1 once for 0
RDM/BLM #2 with 0 enmity casts Dispel, then Drain for no effect.

at this point, RDM #2 had to cure1 himself once to get hate.
RDM #1 Cures herself for 0 and takes hate.
RDM #2 Drains for no effect and takes hate.
RDM #1 Cures herself for 0 and takes hate.

Oh well. Guess I won't cast this one in my NIN/DRK rotation.

[Valyana]

I didn't know that some spells cap at 3 people

I don't think any do. I posted that I had only tested up to 3 people, not that there was a cap.

[eva00r]

we tested a lot of things but it's just halfway through. what we should do next?

[Starr]

How much CE is Mug?

[Kaeko]

Some JP discussion threads on this claim that the pulling initial hate is basd on a percentage of the action.

Can anyone who tested that it was 200 say what spell they were using to pull with?

[Valyana]

Some JP discussion threads on this claim that the pulling initial hate is basd on a percentage of the action.

Can anyone who tested that it was 200 say what spell they were using to pull with?

Silence and Stun. It was 200 CE in both cases. I think I also tested it with Dispel, but I don't remember for sure.