Enmity testing - Still Going!

[Ashira]

K, Sirvente is not a reduced direct loss of CE; at this point we have to assume it's only enmity lost due to damage.

I wish I could figure out what was off on our last test... this just makes no sense.

[Kaeko]

Numbers for Etudes and possibly prelude aren't accurate I think.

Someone said Etudes were 160/160 and Prelude was 20CE. I don't think we got those, can some1 verify?

[eva00r]

prelude is accurate

me -> pull with threnody (200+100)
player1 -> sleep (320)
me -> prelude (20)
then cure1 for 0 hp does swapping our hate.

[Ashira]

prelude is accurate

me -> pull with threnody (200+100)
player1 -> sleep (320)
me -> prelude (20)
then cure1 for 0 hp does swapping our hate.

we were having some issues recreating that same number... same with etudes. Will test again tomorrow, it's very late.

[eva00r]

prelude is accurate

me -> pull with threnody (200+100)
player1 -> sleep (320)
me -> prelude (20)
then cure1 for 0 hp does swapping our hate.

we were having some issues recreating that same number... same with etudes. Will test again tomorrow, it's very late.

I've just recreated that lol.

[donnie]

just speculating:

although you can categorize enmity to 2 VE and CE , but technically it might be wrong?

I assume every action you do gives you an amount of hate , then amount of hate loss / sec or somthing.
but again there are 2 types , where 1 type would lose hate fast , and another that loses hate but for a much longer period of time , aka Provoke VS cure IV.

so have anyone tested for exmaple : cure1 every 20 sec over 1xdispel , and another cure1 every 3 sec over 1x dispel would get the same result?

[Ferien]

just speculating:

although you can categorize enmity to 2 VE and CE , but technically it might be wrong?

I assume every action you do gives you an amount of hate , then amount of hate loss / sec or somthing.
but again there are 2 types , where 1 type would lose hate fast , and another that loses hate but for a much longer period of time , aka Provoke VS cure IV.

so have anyone tested for exmaple : cure1 every 20 sec over 1xdispel , and another cure1 every 3 sec over 1x dispel would get the same result?

Go back and read the LJ posts.

[Ashira]

prelude is accurate

me -> pull with threnody (200+100)
player1 -> sleep (320)
me -> prelude (20)
then cure1 for 0 hp does swapping our hate.

we were having some issues recreating that same number... same with etudes. Will test again tomorrow, it's very late.

I've just recreated that lol.

Except because of something someone else had said, Kae thinks there's an issue with the pull number, that it varies somehow and it's showing in your test vs. ours. When we had a third party pulling using Silence as we've always done, after Kaeko and I estabilshed ourselves at equal hate with spells cast, using Prelude didn't turn the mob towards me at all.

Like I said, we'll have to test again, it was very late and we were having other issues at the time as well.

[Ashira]

just speculating:

although you can categorize enmity to 2 VE and CE , but technically it might be wrong?

I assume every action you do gives you an amount of hate , then amount of hate loss / sec or somthing.
but again there are 2 types , where 1 type would lose hate fast , and another that loses hate but for a much longer period of time , aka Provoke VS cure IV.

so have anyone tested for exmaple : cure1 every 20 sec over 1xdispel , and another cure1 every 3 sec over 1x dispel would get the same result?

I think Donnie is asking whether or not CE decays at all.

The answer, Donnie, is no; because it takes a very long time to cast Cure I 320x, and the mob didn't move at all until I cast the 321st time ten minutes later or whatever, and every other test subsequently puts Dispel at that same hate level after first being cast. Also we had a test with Provoke being used something like twenty times (another ten minute test) against a Dispel; and after it was over it was also established that CE was still at 320.

[Cairthenn]

After testing Enmity for Repose, I feel bad for Ashira.

I can't post results as I don't know them. ~~;

It confused me too much.


Edit: Ok, I think I get it now. Repose has the exact same CE as Sleep II. Whimsic and Horga figured it out, I was just the clueless puller

[Ashira]

Haha. :D

I don't usually worry about getting hate on WHM, you should see what I survive in Einherjar. :D

Thanks for the note though, I'll be sure to tell Kae.

[Kaeko]

Is anyone capable of viewing this? It's like a translated version of the Enmity List, but I think they added info on it. I can't seem to view it.

ttp://briefcase.yahoo.co.jp/bc/ff12_nej ... hoo.co.jp/

I found this on a JPBBS which linked to blog via statcounter.

[Kaeko]

Part VI

http://kanican.livejournal.com/14633.html

Short section - goes over the VE cap and the "Fringe Distance" at which actions grant you hate.

It also details some methodolgy on how to help Ashi and me do Cure 1-4 testing if anyone wants to help us out. We kind of need players at different levels, so it's hard for us to test all levels out ourselves.

[Arkanos]

Is anyone capable of viewing this? It's like a translated version of the Enmity List, but I think they added info on it. I can't seem to view it.

ttp://briefcase.yahoo.co.jp/bc/ff12_nej ... hoo.co.jp/

I found this on a JPBBS which linked to blog via statcounter.

I can view it; it's basically a Japanese condensed version of the stuff you've already posted, including the enmity tables (although they reordered it by magic type, and it's less complete). The only difference seems to be that they believe Sentinel + enmity gear does give you an enmity level of over 100, although I'm not too sure if I translated that part correctly.

[Narse]

I just did some testing with the help of Shaj on Remora (thanks for pulling mobs for me):

My test was concerning CHR and enmity, and just as I was about to give up with finding a connection, I think I stumbled onto it -- CHR reduces cumulative decay when damage is taken.

My test went like so: First I had Shaj (SMN) stoneskin myself and another PLD. The other PLD was a naked 75 PLD/WAR with 59 base CHR and no gear on. I was a Taru PLD with full Koenig/kaiser, giving me a total of 126 CHR. I did a Protect IV on both of us, then had Shaj pull a mob (he pulled with Silence), and me and the Galka PLD both did Flash on the mob, with myself casting just a hair earlier (neither of us have enmity merits). As expected, the mob stayed on the Galka the entire time, and never moved other to me.

After a min or so, we both did Provoke, again with me going just a hair earlier. Still no reaction from the mob. I then took off my armor and put it back on, along with some +HP gear, to lower my HP about 200 or so. We both then did Cure II on me, again with me going just a hair earlier than him. We both cured for 93 damage, and the mob stayed constant on him. At this point I was ready to say CHR has no effect on enmity and started running myself to Sea to warp home, when stoneskin wore and the sapling hit the Galka for 4 damage, and then ran after me. Shaj asked me to check something for him, so I had stopped running for a second, and the sapling came up and hit me for 2 damage, and another 2 damage, but didn't leave after that. It stayed on me until it hit me again for 3 more damage, then ran to the Galka again. It hit him for 2 damage, then ran back to me. Hit me for 2 damage, then another 2 damage, and ran off after that. This pattern continued for a while afterwards, where it'd run off and hit the Galka for 2 damage in one hit, then run back to me, and hit me for 2 damage, then another hit for 2 damage, then run back to him, hit him once for 2 damage, and back to me for 2 more hits at 2 damage each (we were testing on saplings at Dem crag). This is all I had time for before Shaj had to go (was already 6AM for him), but it seems to me that CHR effects the decay of cumulative enmity, which finally makes the CHR on Koenig make sense, as it is a blood tanking piece of equipment. More testing is probably needed to confirm just how it effects it I'd say, however.

[Kaeko]

Is anyone capable of viewing this? It's like a translated version of the Enmity List, but I think they added info on it. I can't seem to view it.

ttp://briefcase.yahoo.co.jp/bc/ff12_nej ... hoo.co.jp/

I found this on a JPBBS which linked to blog via statcounter.

I can view it; it's basically a Japanese condensed version of the stuff you've already posted, including the enmity tables (although they reordered it by magic type, and it's less complete). The only difference seems to be that they believe Sentinel + enmity gear does give you an enmity level of over 100, although I'm not too sure if I translated that part correctly.

Can you check the VE of Sleep II and see if it's up? The BBS said that some1 found the VE for that. Might as well use it if they have added something.

I wonder why I can't view it...

[Arkanos]

They put VE of Sleep II as 480.

[Kaeko]

I just did some testing with the help of Shaj on Remora (thanks for pulling mobs for me):

My test was concerning CHR and enmity, and just as I was about to give up with finding a connection, I think I stumbled onto it -- CHR reduces cumulative decay when damage is taken.

My test went like so: First I had Shaj (SMN) stoneskin myself and another PLD. The other PLD was a naked 75 PLD/WAR with 59 base CHR and no gear on. I was a Taru PLD with full Koenig/kaiser, giving me a total of 126 CHR. I did a Protect IV on both of us, then had Shaj pull a mob (he pulled with Silence), and me and the Galka PLD both did Flash on the mob, with myself casting just a hair earlier (neither of us have enmity merits). As expected, the mob stayed on the Galka the entire time, and never moved other to me.

After a min or so, we both did Provoke, again with me going just a hair earlier. Still no reaction from the mob. I then took off my armor and put it back on, along with some +HP gear, to lower my HP about 200 or so. We both then did Cure II on me, again with me going just a hair earlier than him. We both cured for 93 damage, and the mob stayed constant on him. At this point I was ready to say CHR has no effect on enmity and started running myself to Sea to warp home, when stoneskin wore and the sapling hit the Galka for 4 damage, and then ran after me. Shaj asked me to check something for him, so I had stopped running for a second, and the sapling came up and hit me for 2 damage, and another 2 damage, but didn't leave after that. It stayed on me until it hit me again for 3 more damage, then ran to the Galka again. It hit him for 2 damage, then ran back to me. Hit me for 2 damage, then another 2 damage, and ran off after that. This pattern continued for a while afterwards, where it'd run off and hit the Galka for 2 damage in one hit, then run back to me, and hit me for 2 damage, then another hit for 2 damage, then run back to him, hit him once for 2 damage, and back to me for 2 more hits at 2 damage each (we were testing on saplings at Dem crag). This is all I had time for before Shaj had to go (was already 6AM for him), but it seems to me that CHR effects the decay of cumulative enmity, which finally makes the CHR on Koenig make sense, as it is a blood tanking piece of equipment. More testing is probably needed to confirm just how it effects it I'd say, however.

Interesting; although it's really hard to say since we don't know how much CE you lose from taking damage. It may not scale as we think it does. I think we did some tests saying that CE gain, VE gain, and VE decay were unaffected by CHR. Hadn't seen anything on damage yet obviously though.

[Kaeko]

They put VE of Sleep II as 480.

Bah I didn't realize... Someone here verified it was Sleep II = 480VE here, I updated, then they posted it was updated...

Thanks though!

[Freysi]

If the caster of a cure is inside 25' and the recipient is outside 25', does the action still cause 0 enmity gain? On your LJ you mentioned only testing the other way around, caster outside and recipient inside.

Also, could this info be used to help manage DD enmity levels in drawn out fights? Perhaps have the DD intentionally take damage via AoE or frontal attacks, then run outside 25' and get cured by a backup healer also outside 25' for 0 enmity gain? Viability depends on how much CE you lose for taking damage of course, but might be interesting to experiment with.

How would this work with the new THF ability, the enmity steal? DD gets massive enmity, Run outside of 25' (obviously only if tank regains hate), THF outside of 25' steals enmity from DD. Would the mob eventually turn towards the THF just because of his CE value? Maybe it would work like logging hate, you have to actually perform an action towards the mob to get its attention again, and then it starts checking your old CE value. If all of the THF's actions are outside of 25', then it never initially gets on the mob's hate list, even though he might eventually have capped CE. It's worth a try.