Enmity testing - Still Going!

[VZX]

Hm... wait.. 25?
What about Test #3, Kaeko?
http://kanican.livejournal.com/13235.html

It said 20.0 there

[Ashira]

If the caster of a cure is inside 25' and the recipient is outside 25', does the action still cause 0 enmity gain? On your LJ you mentioned only testing the other way around, caster outside and recipient inside.

Good test to try, we'll have to do that. Will have to try for 0 and for actual HP cured; I think caster will still get a CE of 1 in that situation, but maybe not the HP healed perhaps.

Hm... wait.. 25?
What about Test #3, Kaeko?
http://kanican.livejournal.com/13235.html

It said 20.0 there

That was merely for distance casting, and also had to be within casting range of the mob since we were casting *on* the mob. This was a test on Cure fringe and testing whether Cure enmity comes from distance of caster from mob or target from mob.

[Kaeko]

We have to test 2 things I think...

1) Someone already mentioned to try to cast on a target at 25.0 when the caster is inside 25.0'

2) Try on an NM - I suspect the range may be larger for an NM just from experience.

To VZX - Test3 shows that if you cast something on a mob between the ranges of 0-20.0' you get the same hate. It tried to show that the enmity gained by an action is not directly associated with the distance you cast it from. There is however, some distance at which you just plain don't get hate anymore, as many SMN and BSTs know about. That's what this one is about.

[VZX]

Ah OK. So the problem you didn't test it up to 25' is because the max cure range = 20.0 (hence, no matter how far you curing from, you will still gain hate). Correct?

[Kaeko]

Ah OK. So the problem you didn't test it up to 25' is because the max cure range = 20.0 (hence, no matter how far you curing from, you will still gain hate). Correct?

Exactly. Had we gone further out by changing our spell from Dispel (an enemy target spell) to say Cure or Barspell (an ally or self spell), we would have found this distance at 25.0'. Considering that was at the very very beginning of our tests though, it would have probably just confused us.

[Byrthnoth]

I just did some testing with the help of Shaj on Remora (thanks for pulling mobs for me):

My test was concerning CHR and enmity, and just as I was about to give up with finding a connection, I think I stumbled onto it -- CHR reduces cumulative decay when damage is taken.

My test went like so: First I had Shaj (SMN) stoneskin myself and another PLD. The other PLD was a naked 75 PLD/WAR with 59 base CHR and no gear on. I was a Taru PLD with full Koenig/kaiser, giving me a total of 126 CHR. I did a Protect IV on both of us, then had Shaj pull a mob (he pulled with Silence), and me and the Galka PLD both did Flash on the mob, with myself casting just a hair earlier (neither of us have enmity merits). As expected, the mob stayed on the Galka the entire time, and never moved other to me.

After a min or so, we both did Provoke, again with me going just a hair earlier. Still no reaction from the mob. I then took off my armor and put it back on, along with some +HP gear, to lower my HP about 200 or so. We both then did Cure II on me, again with me going just a hair earlier than him. We both cured for 93 damage, and the mob stayed constant on him. At this point I was ready to say CHR has no effect on enmity and started running myself to Sea to warp home, when stoneskin wore and the sapling hit the Galka for 4 damage, and then ran after me. Shaj asked me to check something for him, so I had stopped running for a second, and the sapling came up and hit me for 2 damage, and another 2 damage, but didn't leave after that. It stayed on me until it hit me again for 3 more damage, then ran to the Galka again. It hit him for 2 damage, then ran back to me. Hit me for 2 damage, then another 2 damage, and ran off after that. This pattern continued for a while afterwards, where it'd run off and hit the Galka for 2 damage in one hit, then run back to me, and hit me for 2 damage, then another hit for 2 damage, then run back to him, hit him once for 2 damage, and back to me for 2 more hits at 2 damage each (we were testing on saplings at Dem crag). This is all I had time for before Shaj had to go (was already 6AM for him), but it seems to me that CHR effects the decay of cumulative enmity, which finally makes the CHR on Koenig make sense, as it is a blood tanking piece of equipment. More testing is probably needed to confirm just how it effects it I'd say, however.

There's also the possibility that cumulative enmity starts to slowly decay if you get far enough away (probably > 25', or off radar is how I judge hatelessness on BST). If you were running away from the Galka, then that would explain this.

It went, if I'm not mistaken:
Galka - Hit for 4
Taru - Hit for 2 + 2 (4) + 3 (7)
Galka - Hit for 2 (6)
Taru - Hit for 2 + 2 (10)

Tests have shown that the monster's attention only updates every once in a while. It could be that he was just hitting you faster than his attention was updating, but that doesn't explain why he'd have gone back to you a second time.

[Narse]

I just did some testing with the help of Shaj on Remora (thanks for pulling mobs for me):

My test was concerning CHR and enmity, and just as I was about to give up with finding a connection, I think I stumbled onto it -- CHR reduces cumulative decay when damage is taken.

My test went like so: First I had Shaj (SMN) stoneskin myself and another PLD. The other PLD was a naked 75 PLD/WAR with 59 base CHR and no gear on. I was a Taru PLD with full Koenig/kaiser, giving me a total of 126 CHR. I did a Protect IV on both of us, then had Shaj pull a mob (he pulled with Silence), and me and the Galka PLD both did Flash on the mob, with myself casting just a hair earlier (neither of us have enmity merits). As expected, the mob stayed on the Galka the entire time, and never moved other to me.

After a min or so, we both did Provoke, again with me going just a hair earlier. Still no reaction from the mob. I then took off my armor and put it back on, along with some +HP gear, to lower my HP about 200 or so. We both then did Cure II on me, again with me going just a hair earlier than him. We both cured for 93 damage, and the mob stayed constant on him. At this point I was ready to say CHR has no effect on enmity and started running myself to Sea to warp home, when stoneskin wore and the sapling hit the Galka for 4 damage, and then ran after me. Shaj asked me to check something for him, so I had stopped running for a second, and the sapling came up and hit me for 2 damage, and another 2 damage, but didn't leave after that. It stayed on me until it hit me again for 3 more damage, then ran to the Galka again. It hit him for 2 damage, then ran back to me. Hit me for 2 damage, then another 2 damage, and ran off after that. This pattern continued for a while afterwards, where it'd run off and hit the Galka for 2 damage in one hit, then run back to me, and hit me for 2 damage, then another hit for 2 damage, then run back to him, hit him once for 2 damage, and back to me for 2 more hits at 2 damage each (we were testing on saplings at Dem crag). This is all I had time for before Shaj had to go (was already 6AM for him), but it seems to me that CHR effects the decay of cumulative enmity, which finally makes the CHR on Koenig make sense, as it is a blood tanking piece of equipment. More testing is probably needed to confirm just how it effects it I'd say, however.

There's also the possibility that cumulative enmity starts to slowly decay if you get far enough away (probably > 25', or off radar is how I judge hatelessness on BST). If you were running away from the Galka, then that would explain this.

It went, if I'm not mistaken:
Galka - Hit for 4
Taru - Hit for 2 + 2 (4) + 3 (7)
Galka - Hit for 2 (6)
Taru - Hit for 2 + 2 (10)

Tests have shown that the monster's attention only updates every once in a while. It could be that he was just hitting you faster than his attention was updating, but that doesn't explain why he'd have gone back to you a second time.

Yeah, and it wasn't just a 2nd time either. It happened like that about 10x back and forth before I figured it wasn't just a fluke and killed it and went to bed.

[Kaeko]

If the caster of a cure is inside 25' and the recipient is outside 25', does the action still cause 0 enmity gain? On your LJ you mentioned only testing the other way around, caster outside and recipient inside.

Also, could this info be used to help manage DD enmity levels in drawn out fights? Perhaps have the DD intentionally take damage via AoE or frontal attacks, then run outside 25' and get cured by a backup healer also outside 25' for 0 enmity gain? Viability depends on how much CE you lose for taking damage of course, but might be interesting to experiment with.

How would this work with the new THF ability, the enmity steal? DD gets massive enmity, Run outside of 25' (obviously only if tank regains hate), THF outside of 25' steals enmity from DD. Would the mob eventually turn towards the THF just because of his CE value? Maybe it would work like logging hate, you have to actually perform an action towards the mob to get its attention again, and then it starts checking your old CE value. If all of the THF's actions are outside of 25', then it never initially gets on the mob's hate list, even though he might eventually have capped CE. It's worth a try.

We just tried this.

1 player was at the mob (one with hate)
1 player was at exactly 25.0' from the mob
1 player was at about 5' from the mob and 20' from the outside player

The player 5.0' from the mob casts cure on the player 25.0' from the mob. No hate is granted. We then had the outside player move to 24.9' and repeated; this time the player 5.0' from the mob did get hate.

So the range is strictly based on the target of the action, not the caster in any way. You can be just 5.0' from a mob, but if the target of your spell is 25.0' or greater away, any action you do on that target grants 0 enmity.

[Kaeko]

2 Questions that require a PLD so we can't perform it ourselves... If anyone is willing to try this (or has tried this), please say so.

1) Is the TE cap truly 20,000? Someone asked if maybe the 2 don't work seperately and it caps earlier than 20,000. This can be tested by having 2 players cast Dispel 31x each (both at 9920 CE even), then having 1 cast cure 5 times. Other (the PLD) then uses Sentinel and Invincible - check to see if it's still 167 seconds to decay. If it is, we can say the cap is 20,000 total for sure.

2) Does Sentinel's Enmity gain (+100) decrease over time? I think Elipse, you would know the most on this one since you ran that test to begin with. Do you think it decayed at all from +100 or was it just +100 static throughout the duration of the effect?

Thanks!

[Freysi]

We just tried this.

1 player was at the mob (one with hate)
1 player was at exactly 25.0' from the mob
1 player was at about 5' from the mob and 20' from the outside player

The player 5.0' from the mob casts cure on the player 25.0' from the mob. No hate is granted. We then had the outside player move to 24.9' and repeated; this time the player 5.0' from the mob did get hate.

So the range is strictly based on the target of the action, not the caster in any way. You can be just 5.0' from a mob, but if the target of your spell is 25.0' or greater away, any action you do on that target grants 0 enmity.

Interesting, not quite what I expected. So that would allow healers to stay within range of everyone, and DDs who are get hurt can run out and get cured, no danger to healers.

Another question, does death do the same to enmity as logging out? Or is that a true reset of all enmity.

[Kaeko]

We just tried this.

1 player was at the mob (one with hate)
1 player was at exactly 25.0' from the mob
1 player was at about 5' from the mob and 20' from the outside player

The player 5.0' from the mob casts cure on the player 25.0' from the mob. No hate is granted. We then had the outside player move to 24.9' and repeated; this time the player 5.0' from the mob did get hate.

So the range is strictly based on the target of the action, not the caster in any way. You can be just 5.0' from a mob, but if the target of your spell is 25.0' or greater away, any action you do on that target grants 0 enmity.

Interesting, not quite what I expected. So that would allow healers to stay within range of everyone, and DDs who are get hurt can run out and get cured, no danger to healers.

Another question, does death do the same to enmity as logging out? Or is that a true reset of all enmity.

Intuitively, death has to be a full reset. We know now that zoning and logging don't. I believe shut down is a full reset though.

[Valyana]

Intuitively, death has to be a full reset. We know now that zoning and logging don't. I believe shut down is a full reset though.

I would be surprised if shutdown were different from logout except in that it means you're logged out for longer. It looks like you only tested logout followed by immediate logon; it might be interesting to test staying logged out for, say, a minute.

[shaddix]

hay figure out how much damage taken decreases CE and how much VE CE is gained for damage given i did a bunch of tests but i dunno wtf i'm tired and shit and i will figure it out later i wrote these numbers down probably won't make sense but i will get back to it when i'm not sleepy, don't trust any of these nubmers by the way way too tired and i need a 3rd person to help


level 0 mob
24 damage
%27
73
320 CE




22 damage
%33
67
293 CE





21 damage
%36
64
281 CE



26 damage
%21
79
346 CE
13.3 CE per hp

2 damage taken = 3 CE?
75 damage on level 0 = 998 CE
75 damage on level 16 = 400 CE
23%



level 15-18 mob????
75 damage
%77
23
5.6 CE per hp
400 CE
17.3 CE per % hp


227% = 998 CE
1760
400

5%
15 damage
80 CE

1600


1200 VE from 73 damage 21% of hp on a level 16 mob
additional 380 CE

[Narse]

i wrote these numbers down probably won't make sense

Yeah, random percentages and numbers with no details as to what they're referring to are pretty useless.

[Kaeko]

Hi!

I was surprised to see this bumped from November.

The numbers are pretty interesting and they do seem to follow the general trend of CE generated per HP dealt decreases as your target level increases. These numbers are pretty useful to guide and ballpark things. I was also surprised to see so much VE on some of the things there too.

Unfortunately, I really don't think you can do anything more than ballpark and get a feel for what's going on based on what you posted. The methods have to be like air-tight and placed openly for any criticism to have any numbers used be openly legit. That's really what makes it hard. This type of information is still very useful for trying to mold future experiments. When we first started, we had no clue what was going on and spent a lot of timing messing around to try to come up with loose explanations to run real tests for.

[shaddix]

Unfortunately, I really don't think you can do anything more than ballpark and get a feel for what's going on based on what you posted.

yar! i'm going to do some more thorough testing when i haven't been up for 40 hours straight :3


also, it seemed i lost 160CE +-15 CE from 100 hp damage taken vs a level 40 mob.

was sad this thread had died there's still a lot of crap we could learn

[Kaeko]

Unfortunately, I really don't think you can do anything more than ballpark and get a feel for what's going on based on what you posted.

yar! i'm going to do some more thorough testing when i haven't been up for 40 hours straight :3


also, it seemed i lost 160CE +-15 CE from 100 hp damage taken vs a level 40 mob.

was sad this thread had died there's still a lot of crap we could learn

Ashi and I really needed a break from this. It looks really cool once you figure it out and present it, but doing all the tests repeatedly and having to redo shit because you left out a control really gets to you eventually.

[Ashira]

Unfortunately, I really don't think you can do anything more than ballpark and get a feel for what's going on based on what you posted.

yar! i'm going to do some more thorough testing when i haven't been up for 40 hours straight :3


also, it seemed i lost 160CE +-15 CE from 100 hp damage taken vs a level 40 mob.

was sad this thread had died there's still a lot of crap we could learn

Ashi and I really needed a break from this. It looks really cool once you figure it out and present it, but doing all the tests repeatedly and having to redo shit because you left out a control really gets to you eventually.

Not to mention Kaeko was on a fast track to level SCH to 75~

And now my computer is dead!

YAY

[shaddix]

this thread has given me an insane amount of advancement toward optimal playstyle

[sleekmotorwurkz]

Intuitively, death has to be a full reset. We know now that zoning and logging don't. I believe shut down is a full reset though.

I would be surprised if shutdown were different from logout except in that it means you're logged out for longer. It looks like you only tested logout followed by immediate logon; it might be interesting to test staying logged out for, say, a minute.

My belief is the mob has to "look" for you for hate to be reset. I have no test results to prove it, but we have had many times where mages logged for hate and when they logged back in they got smacked. On the other hand we have had mages log out and log back with seemingly full hate reset.

Ex1. Tank is kiting, mage logs out, tank goes down, mob then looks for the mage, doesnt see it, hate for that mage gets reset, and mob goes to the next person on its hate list.

Ex2. Tank is kiting, mage logs out, mob stays focused on the tank the entire period of the logout, doesnt look for the mage. Mage logs back in, tank goes down, mob then looks for the mage and sees it, attacks mage.

Like I said, this isnt the end all because I have no proof, but these 2 examples have happened to us so this is the logical explanation I have come up with. Of course it seems as though death is full hate reset, maybe a mob can tell when he has defeated someone and hate is completely reset, on the other hand if they die from a link, even though they were not defeated by the mob in question, hate would still be reset - I have no explanation of that one.