Enmity testing - Still Going!

[IfritnoItazura]

JP racism ftw

Well, that "crybaby" "racist" Japanese player also wrote in his first blog on the topic these things about Kaeko's work:

??????????[ ... ] ????????????

That's "Splendid content," "Truly great," and "Respect." (As in, "I give [ Kaeko] my respect.") There are other praises, too.

His trepidation with foreigners discovering the mechanism and numerical values for enmity is a little more nuanced than simple minded bigotry, in all likelihood. >_>

[Wizerd]

JP racism ftw

Well, that "crybaby" "racist" Japanese player also wrote in his first blog on the topic these things about Kaeko's work:

??????????[ ... ] ????????????

That's "Splendid content," "Truly great," and "Respect." (As in, "I give [ Kaeko] my respect.") There are other praises, too.

His trepidation with foreigners discovering the mechanism and numerical values for enmity is a little more nuanced than simple minded bigotry, in all likelihood. >_>

In other words, he's just a crybaby, not racist.

[Kaeko]

I didn't mean to focus the attention on the guy's blog for his comment about insecurities regarding gaijins. He does have some interesting tidbits which others haven't covered. Translations of the testing into JP is also pretty cool - I know of 3-4 blogs doing it.

I think I'll be ready to try some more testing soon. I doubt I'll be focusing on the damage formulas for now though as there are more basic concepts that are more important. I saw a really good thread on BG recently about how mobs track and deaggro which is pretty insightful; I will probably try to show how the game tracks or loses track of that.

[siknoz]

Great work guys, I loved reading through all your tests. However 1 question that I had, that I'm not sure you answered in there (you might have, this is the reason for the post), but why is it that the initial contact on a mob generates more hate?

IE. A typical scenario for a SMN
1) SMN casts Garuda
2) SMN casts Dia2 on mob
3) Garuda will automatically engage because you have hate on the mob
4) Garuda hits it once, but does not pull it off you

while on the other hand

1) SMN casts Garuda
2) SMN uses "Assault" command and Garuda hits 1st
3) Casting Dia2 before Garuda hits a 2nd time, will not have the mob shift hate to the SMN

Is this because the initial contact with a mob generates more hate, or because the fact that he hits you generates more hate than Garuda's 1 hit to the mob?

Sorry if that sounded confusing, hopefully you understand what I'm asking.

[Wizerd]

Great work guys, I loved reading through all your tests. However 1 question that I had, that I'm not sure you answered in there (you might have, this is the reason for the post), but why is it that the initial contact on a mob generates more hate?

IE. A typical scenario for a SMN
1) SMN casts Garuda
2) SMN casts Dia2 on mob
3) Garuda will automatically engage because you have hate on the mob
4) Garuda hits it once, but does not pull it off you

while on the other hand

1) SMN casts Garuda
2) SMN uses "Assault" command and Garuda hits 1st
3) Casting Dia2 before Garuda hits a 2nd time, will not have the mob shift hate to the SMN

Is this because the initial contact with a mob generates more hate, or because the fact that he hits you generates more hate than Garuda's 1 hit to the mob?

Sorry if that sounded confusing, hopefully you understand what I'm asking.

Initial contact with a monster creates a specific amount of enmity. If the monster is simply agggro'd, but you didn't act on it, I believe you start with 0 hate instead of the initial amount (not including resting aggro).

If an action is used to aggro the monster, then you'll start out with the initial amount.

[Edrick]

Great work guys, I loved reading through all your tests. However 1 question that I had, that I'm not sure you answered in there (you might have, this is the reason for the post), but why is it that the initial contact on a mob generates more hate?

IE. A typical scenario for a SMN
1) SMN casts Garuda
2) SMN casts Dia2 on mob
3) Garuda will automatically engage because you have hate on the mob
4) Garuda hits it once, but does not pull it off you

while on the other hand

1) SMN casts Garuda
2) SMN uses "Assault" command and Garuda hits 1st
3) Casting Dia2 before Garuda hits a 2nd time, will not have the mob shift hate to the SMN

Is this because the initial contact with a mob generates more hate, or because the fact that he hits you generates more hate than Garuda's 1 hit to the mob?

Sorry if that sounded confusing, hopefully you understand what I'm asking.

Initial contact with a monster creates a specific amount of enmity. If the monster is simply agggro'd, but you didn't act on it, I believe you start with 0 hate instead of the initial amount (not including resting aggro).

If an action is used to aggro the monster, then you'll start out with the initial amount.

I think the only exception is when you do a ranged attack and miss. I think that counts as just aggro and doesn't grant the extra bonus enmity. Though, it may give a bonus, but it would be significantly less than connecting with the shot. I'd bet this works the same with melee attacks, too.

[Ashira]

We did pulling tests but with spells only; no specific testing on melee pulls, be it just aggro, ranged, hits, missing hits, missing ranged, etc. I think someone somewhere though, did some preliminary tests and posted it on Kae's blog or in these threads, which is where most people are now getting this generally accepted knowledge.

In any case, yes, to be the first to do an action on a mob, or 'pull' it, grants you a certain amount of CE and causes your SMN scenario 1.

[siknoz]

Thanks for the info! I think a SMN series for enmity testing would be awesome, and I would like to do some on my own. However I think it may be impossible without some suggestion/ideas. Simply because it is difficult to do. Let me explain a little.

During a long fight for a smn, say using the carby kite method, I noticed that SMN's will pull a ton of aggro from doing basic stuff like Stoneskin/blink. Even when you move away from a mob it seems to move your hate around. Example is casting out a new carby and trying to hold still until carby pulls hate, in which after 2-3 hits he does, then you try to move away only to find that when you start moving again the mob will start chasing you again. Could this imply that even movement has a small amount of VE/CE? Or is it that Melee attacks from a pet(or other players?) gradually loses hate?

We did pulling tests but with spells only; no specific testing on melee pulls, be it just aggro, ranged, hits, missing hits, missing ranged, etc.

If I wanted to test something like what I stated above, how would I go about doing that? Because I don't think that using a lv0 mob would work, seeing as that carby would most likely one shot it. Any tips/suggestions to get this started would be great^^. Thanks again

[Ashira]

That requires the formulas we haven't even begun on, namely enmity loss when one takes damage.

We did some preliminary testing on summoning and using Assault, etc, and their VE as I recall was a decently sized jump, but lower CE as I recall.

However, if things move and your mobs falls within your 25'-30' range, any action you do will now put you back on your VE/CE lists. If you summon with the mob getting closer and closer to you, that also spikes your levels again as you're in range. Carby kiting is especially harder, esp later in fights, as he hits for relatively little and ends up taking quite a bit of damage physically. If your hate levels are high already, you could have troubles with Carby holding a mob unless you get off a good Meteorite and he's not half dead already.

[Hakamaru]

Sorry for the late comment on the subject, but I think I have a pretty good idea of what KV does that's out of the ordinary. Sometimes he seems to spontaneously 'discard' whoever's at the top of the hate list. You still have your cumulated CE and VE values, he simply doesn't care and goes after someone else. All you have to do to get back on top of the hate list is act directly on KV. As long as you had high CE and VE before the hate list got messed up, you will be put right back on top again.

Here's the experience I've had that backs this:

Back when I used to Kite him as NIN/DRK, I would have solid hate. He would all of the sudden go after someone else, and I would do what's natural to me and spam JAs to get more hate. When I spammed SE and LR, he would take no notice of me and continue after whatever target he selected. I then noticed that I only had to hit him with Kuriyami to get his attention back every single time he screwed with the hate list.

So when KV jumbles up the hate list, all you have to do is act on him to get your position re-sorted. It's not some crazy hate decay.

[Kaeko]

I can confirm that KV does not follow normal rules. Just eyeballing from my own experiences it seems to shed CE as well.

[shaddix]

i'm so happy this thread is picking up again :D

[Tour]

Great work guys, I loved reading through all your tests. However 1 question that I had, that I'm not sure you answered in there (you might have, this is the reason for the post), but why is it that the initial contact on a mob generates more hate?

IE. A typical scenario for a SMN
1) SMN casts Garuda
2) SMN casts Dia2 on mob
3) Garuda will automatically engage because you have hate on the mob
4) Garuda hits it once, but does not pull it off you

while on the other hand

1) SMN casts Garuda
2) SMN uses "Assault" command and Garuda hits 1st
3) Casting Dia2 before Garuda hits a 2nd time, will not have the mob shift hate to the SMN

Is this because the initial contact with a mob generates more hate, or because the fact that he hits you generates more hate than Garuda's 1 hit to the mob?

Sorry if that sounded confusing, hopefully you understand what I'm asking.

Initial contact with a monster creates a specific amount of enmity. If the monster is simply agggro'd, but you didn't act on it, I believe you start with 0 hate instead of the initial amount (not including resting aggro).

If an action is used to aggro the monster, then you'll start out with the initial amount.

I think the only exception is when you do a ranged attack and miss. I think that counts as just aggro and doesn't grant the extra bonus enmity. Though, it may give a bonus, but it would be significantly less than connecting with the shot. I'd bet this works the same with melee attacks, too.

no bonus ^.^ b

[Kaeko]

Update on Spells and Abilities including the new jobs.

First number is the CE while the second number is the VE.

Black Mage
Burn - 1 | 300
Choke - 1 | 300
Drown - 1 | 300
Frost - 1 | 300
Rasp - 1 | 300
Shock - 1 | 300

White Mage
Cure V - - 400 | 600
Does NOT vary with player level

Scholar
[Weather Spells] - 1 | 300
[Stratagems] - 1 | 80
Dark Arts - 1 | 80
Light Arts - 1 |80
Tabula Rasa - 1 | 300
Modus Veritas - 1 | 300

Dancer
[Sambas] - 1 | 300
Quick Step - 1 | 0
Spectral Jig - 1 | 300
Animated Flourish (Single Charge) - 1 | 1500
[Curing Waltz] - Follow similar pattern as Cure 1-4

Animated Flourish is pretty strong

[Zilong]

Did you try it on both main/sub? I'm having hard time believing that Animated Flourish produce above 1000 VE...

Hell, I honestly believed it was like 500-600 at most.

[Kaeko]

Did you try it on both main/sub? I'm having hard time believing that Animated Flourish produce above 1000 VE...

Hell, I honestly believed it was like 500-600 at most.

Was tested on a 75RDM/29DNC.

Number seemed a bit high to us too...

We'll retest this if you DNCs think it's wildly off.

[Ashira]

It's still less than Provoke, though not by much. We were surprised by it too, but repeated the test a couple times to be sure.

[shaddix]

yay new numbers i'm in love with you :D

i wourd rike to donate a sum of $1 to enmity testing project prease o.ob

[Tekki]

From my experience, Im not surprised by that number.

[Ashira]

White Mage
Cure V - - 400 | 600
Does NOT vary with player level

Oh yeah, I wanted to clarify this a little, in case people were confused - this test was variance with TARGET player level, not CASTING player level. The enmity was the same casting from a LV75 WHM on a LV75 as on a LV40.

I suppose we could do CASTING player level, but a) I doubt results would vary, and b) not sure where that sort of information would be terribly useful. >.>