Enmity testing - Still Going!

[Kaeko]

Lots of new spells and abilities updated.

http://kanican.livejournal.com/13848.html

I counted 399 moves that didn't depend on Cured HP or damage and we're currently at...

301/399 CE Values
278/399 VE Values

Notable Adds today:

Sentinel: 1 | 1800
Rampart: 1 | 300 (per person hit)
Absorb-TP: 320 | 320
All BRD buff songs: 20 | 80 (per person hit)

[Not Kuno]

What does it mean if something is -10 CE? Looking at retreat and I'm kinda curious.

[Kaeko]

What does it mean if something is -10 CE? Looking at retreat and I'm kinda curious.

It's like losing an Utsu shadow. You'll actually lose enmity by using it. Can only be used with a pet is out and getting the pet out causes more than retreat loses so not really abusable.

[Thitaubian Seraph]

How are negative CE values effected by +/-enmity gear?

[Kaeko]

I know that + enmity gear doesn't do anything to those -X CE moves. I'm not sure what - enmity gear would do though. I'll look into it.

Ran a few more tests regarding accomplice that I'll probably blog more formally later. Basically on it's own the move grants 0 CE and 0 VE. Obviously you get half of each type from the target. The issue we tested was the range it worked out. We found that Accomplice does not do anything unless the user (THF) is roughly 20' or less from mobs the player target has hate on.

The target of accomplice can be greater than 20' away from the mob you want to relieve hate from, but the user must be 20'ish or less. The precise range is not 20', but something like 21ish. I suspect it's really 20' + the range of the user's body.

Also, for those interested in PUP moves and how the automaton hate works... the research has been completed by a JP player who made a video about his findings.

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm2440476

Hilarious video... it's 25 minutes long and plays out like a PBS program. It's in JP and you need a niconico account to view it though (which is free to setup). I glanced at it but didn't pick up a lot of finer details. I did see something like Automaton cures give 0 hate to the automaton though. Other stuff about attachments and stuff as well. If you're a PUP and care about this hate stuff, I think it's a great view if you can understand JP. He actually uses the info to then solo Hakutaku in the video as well. Very impressive and well made video.

EDIT: actually, if anyone would be kind enough, would someone be willing to translate his PUP findings for me? My Japanese isn't nearly good enough to make a real accurate translation.

[Edrick]

Sounds like a job for :elmer:

I was curious, though... Would you have any thoughts of organizing this enmity list by job? I know it'd be useful for a few jobs to just be able to take a quick look at a list of all the abilities/spells that the job would have access to instead of possibly missing something in the long, all-encompassing list. Splitting each job into 1-37 and 38-75 would be nice, too.

Might be just me, but that type of list would be a bit more useful than a full, alphabetical list. Just a curiosity, though. If you don't have time, no worries. All of this data is very delicious so far! Can't wait to see how the curing/damage formulas turn out.

[Callisto]

The target of accomplice can be greater than 20' away from the mob you want to relieve hate from, but the user must be 20'ish or less. The precise range is not 20', but something like 21ish. I suspect it's really 20' + the range of the user's body.

Regarding Accomplice, and similarly Dirge(or was it Sirvente, the emnity- one at either rate), I was curious, do they actually take away a chunk of the emnity that has already been built up, or do they give the target an emnity- effect on their future actions like that on emnity- gear?

[Delenn]

Another note on Accomplice, there's a chance accomplice only steals enmity from mobs that have the person who uses Accomplice on their hate list.

For example, let's say:

• Bob hits mobA[/*:m:1rqh3pq8]
• Bob is on mobA's hate list, thus mobA attacks Bob[/*:m:1rqh3pq8]
• mobB links, Bob is on mobB's hate list, thus mobB attacks Bob[/*:m:1rqh3pq8]
• Joe attacks mobA, getting on mobA's hate list[/*:m:1rqh3pq8]
• Joe uses Accomplice on Bob[/*:m:1rqh3pq8]
• mobA will start attacking Joe[/*:m:1rqh3pq8]
• mobB will continue attacking Bob[/*:m:1rqh3pq8]

Provided ties are broken by the most recent action, I would think both mobA and mobB would attack Joe, but this wasn't the case, hence something odd is happening.

I noticed this with Helm Beetles in Crawler's Nest while duoing an escort scroll, but I haven't explicitly tried to repeat it. If someone could confirm this, that would be great.

[Kaeko]

Another note on Accomplice, there's a chance accomplice only steals enmity from mobs that have the person who uses Accomplice on their hate list.

For example, let's say:

• Bob hits mobA[/*:m:ewtut6kv]
• Bob is on mobA's hate list, thus mobA attacks Bob[/*:m:ewtut6kv]
• mobB links, Bob is on mobB's hate list, thus mobB attacks Bob[/*:m:ewtut6kv]
• Joe attacks mobA, getting on mobA's hate list[/*:m:ewtut6kv]
• Joe uses Accomplice on Bob[/*:m:ewtut6kv]
• mobA will start attacking Joe[/*:m:ewtut6kv]
• mobB will continue attacking Bob[/*:m:ewtut6kv]

Provided ties are broken by the most recent action, I would think both mobA and mobB would attack Joe, but this wasn't the case, hence something odd is happening.

I noticed this with Helm Beetles in Crawler's Nest while duoing an escort scroll, but I haven't explicitly tried to repeat it. If someone could confirm this, that would be great.

This is due to the fact that it is possible to be on the "hate list" but have 0 CE and 0 VE. Linking is 1 way of achieving this. It continues to attack the original target because you're stealing CE/VE, which are both 0, while the person is still on the hate list.

Also, I do have all of them listed by job, but it's in excel file. I haven't gotten around to putting it onto LJ yet.

[Khelek]

Sorry if it's been brought up;
Was wondering how enmity+ gear affects the decay of Volatile Enmity over time, as well as the cumulative enmity lost from losing a shadow. Is this scheduled for testing? I'm afraid I can't test it myself, due to lack of characters without enmity merits >:

[Ashtray]

Was wondering how enmity+ gear affects the decay of Volatile Enmity over time, as well as the cumulative enmity lost from losing a shadow.

The static decay of -60 VE isn't effected by straight + or - Enmity gear and like Kaeko just said above in his post.

I know that + enmity gear doesn't do anything to those -X CE moves. I'm not sure what - enmity gear would do though. I'll look into it.

[Suiram]

Sorry if it's been brought up;
Was wondering how enmity+ gear affects the decay of Volatile Enmity over time, as well as the cumulative enmity lost from losing a shadow. Is this scheduled for testing? I'm afraid I can't test it myself, due to lack of characters without enmity merits >:

Since enmity+ gear/merits aggregate in the same term as enmity- gear/merits, you should be able to wear the appropriate amount of gear to cancel out your merits for the purposes of testing and be effectively the same as a person with no merits.

[Kaeko]

The target of accomplice can be greater than 20' away from the mob you want to relieve hate from, but the user must be 20'ish or less. The precise range is not 20', but something like 21ish. I suspect it's really 20' + the range of the user's body.

Regarding Accomplice, and similarly Dirge(or was it Sirvente, the emnity- one at either rate), I was curious, do they actually take away a chunk of the emnity that has already been built up, or do they give the target an emnity- effect on their future actions like that on emnity- gear?

Dirge is LVL1 = -10 enmity, LVL2 = -13 enmity, LVL3 = -16 enmity. It is exactly the same effect as wearing - enmity gear.

Sirvente is not like this. I don't know exactly what it does yet, but I do know it does not affect the VE decay rate and it does not add + enmity. I speculate it reduces the CE loss when you get hit for damage but haven't tested this.

[Edrick]

The target of accomplice can be greater than 20' away from the mob you want to relieve hate from, but the user must be 20'ish or less. The precise range is not 20', but something like 21ish. I suspect it's really 20' + the range of the user's body.

Regarding Accomplice, and similarly Dirge(or was it Sirvente, the emnity- one at either rate), I was curious, do they actually take away a chunk of the emnity that has already been built up, or do they give the target an emnity- effect on their future actions like that on emnity- gear?

Dirge is LVL1 = -10 enmity, LVL2 = -13 enmity, LVL3 = -16 enmity. It is exactly the same effect as wearing - enmity gear.

Sirvente is not like this. I don't know exactly what it does yet, but I do know it does not affect the VE decay rate and it does not add + enmity. I speculate it reduces the CE loss when you get hit for damage but haven't tested this.

I wonder if it would reduce the CE loss when you lose an Utsusemi shadow.

[Plight]

What does it mean if something is -10 CE? Looking at retreat and I'm kinda curious.

It's like losing an Utsu shadow. You'll actually lose enmity by using it. Can only be used with a pet is out and getting the pet out causes more than retreat loses so not really abusable.

If Retreat is -10 CE, it should never be able cause the SMN using it to become the target of the monster an avatar has engaged, should it? In practice, sending an avatar to attack a mob and then spamming retreat most certainly can cause the SMN to pull hate. Checked this earlier today just to be sure.

[Kaeko]

What does it mean if something is -10 CE? Looking at retreat and I'm kinda curious.

It's like losing an Utsu shadow. You'll actually lose enmity by using it. Can only be used with a pet is out and getting the pet out causes more than retreat loses so not really abusable.

If Retreat is -10 CE, it should never be able cause the SMN using it to become the target of the monster an avatar has engaged, should it? In practice, sending an avatar to attack a mob and then spamming retreat most certainly can cause the SMN to pull hate. Checked this earlier today just to be sure.

Hmmm I'll definitely keep this in mind. We're actually having a ton of trouble testing anything related to SMN because we can't use LVL0 mobs. Everytime you do anything with a pet out and have hate, the avatar automatically attacks the fucking mob. Most annoying thing ever so we're holding off on SMN related moves atm.

[arshesney]

Another note on Accomplice, there's a chance accomplice only steals enmity from mobs that have the person who uses Accomplice on their hate list.

For example, let's say:

• Bob hits mobA[/*:m:30trswpg]
• Bob is on mobA's hate list, thus mobA attacks Bob[/*:m:30trswpg]
• mobB links, Bob is on mobB's hate list, thus mobB attacks Bob[/*:m:30trswpg]
• Joe attacks mobA, getting on mobA's hate list[/*:m:30trswpg]
• Joe uses Accomplice on Bob[/*:m:30trswpg]
• mobA will start attacking Joe[/*:m:30trswpg]
• mobB will continue attacking Bob[/*:m:30trswpg]

Provided ties are broken by the most recent action, I would think both mobA and mobB would attack Joe, but this wasn't the case, hence something odd is happening.

I noticed this with Helm Beetles in Crawler's Nest while duoing an escort scroll, but I haven't explicitly tried to repeat it. If someone could confirm this, that would be great.

This might be true, I was duoing with a BRD friend in Sea (killing Xzomits) and noticed that even though I used Accomplice after his Lullaby (and I'm sure I wasn't on slept mobs hate list) mobs always went for him as they woke up, and turned on me only after hitting him. (this might also happen because of the "pull enmity bonus")

[Thitaubian Seraph]

...
This might be true, I was duoing with a BRD friend in Sea (killing Xzomits) and noticed that even though I used Accomplice after his Lullaby (and I'm sure I wasn't on slept mobs hate list) mobs always went for him as they woke up, and turned on me only after hitting him. (this might also happen because of the "pull enmity bonus")

You are saying that your Brd friend pulled a flock/gaggle/w.e. of Xzomits (probably with Horde Lullaby),
then you Accompliced him,
after that no other actions by you or him are taken on the minor Xzomits,
then the minor Xzomits woke up and attacked him first?

If yes then...
At that point in time your TE and his TE on the minor Xzomits is equal since you have 50% of his TE, so since he was last to perform an action on them, it makes sense for him to be at the top of the hate list.

[Suiram]

That, and the quoted list--at least the part concerning mobB--isn't so much having to do with accomplice as it has to do with the mechanics of being the target of a mob with zero actual hate, due to aggro or linking or party-hate, "supertank" or "nullhate" or "0-hate" or whatever you want to call it. Accomplice shouldn't cause the enemy to shift target off the person with 0-hate same as any other non-offensive action like cures and buffs and status cures, etc. I wouldn't think anyway.

[Kaeko]

I'll probably model this concept of '0 hate but on the hate list' soon.

Basically, there are 2 separate things you need to know about - your "enmity" (the stuff we've been testing about VE and CE), and whether or not you are on the "hate list". Being on the "hate list" is not simply having a TE greater than 0, it is completely separate. It is possible to have TE accumulated but not be on the hate list (we're currently testing exactly how this works - it's a bit quirky); likewise, it is possible to have 0 TE and be on the hate list.