Enmity testing - Still Going!

[Suiram]

It seems to be something entirely different in character from being "on the hate list" even though I wrote that initially in my above post. By that I mean, it's not like you just have 0 TE, as you said, since if you do something to generate VE and let it decay, or CE and take damage to where you're presumably down to 0, someone performing an action on you should still have the normal hate rules and calculation I think. It's more like "target selection when there is nobody on the hate list", if that's a distinction worth making (is this even a real distinction or am I confusing terminology?). And having someone get on the hate list after seems to erase whatever rules the mob had used for target selection prior, as when someone pulls a mob off someone that has aggroed it, and then zones or dies.

On a related note, I think there was a thread recently that brought this up too, but how the mob chooses from multiple targets not from the hate list is odd. The other day 3 of us were playing with AV on level 1 jobs, fanning out to try to keep him active long enough to cast spells, and he'd always head for the next person in the same order regardless of anything like proximity (provided both were within the appropriate maximum range).

[Kaeko]

It seems to be something entirely different in character from being "on the hate list" even though I wrote that initially in my above post. By that I mean, it's not like you just have 0 TE, as you said, since if you do something to generate VE and let it decay, or CE and take damage to where you're presumably down to 0, someone performing an action on you should still have the normal hate rules and calculation I think. It's more like "target selection when there is nobody on the hate list", if that's a distinction worth making (is this even a real distinction or am I confusing terminology?). And having someone get on the hate list after seems to erase whatever rules the mob had used for target selection prior, as when someone pulls a mob off someone that has aggroed it, and then zones or dies.

On a related note, I think there was a thread recently that brought this up too, but how the mob chooses from multiple targets not from the hate list is odd. The other day 3 of us were playing with AV on level 1 jobs, fanning out to try to keep him active long enough to cast spells, and he'd always head for the next person in the same order regardless of anything like proximity (provided both were within the appropriate maximum range).

I think mobs have some sort of order based on who is closest if there is a hate tie. I'm not sure if this is what you saw though. I think trying to understand the idea of choosing targets is the next big step for us. Here is an early test we ran.

We set up 2 players with some amount of hate. We run 2 quick tests. First time, player with hate zones out then zones back in. The other player then zones. We watch what the mob does (goes back to player or despawns?). We then repeat the other way around with the player without hate first zoning in and out then the other.

If the player with hate zones, his TE resets. This means when the other player then zones, the mob despawns. However, if the player without hate zones, his TE does not reset. When the other player zones in this case, the mob goes after the guy that just zoned! This seems to indicate that TE resets only if you zone out with the mob currently on you.

I'm not too sure what to make of this in the grand scheme of formulating some model like we did for the CE/VE/TE quantification. I do know in practice, there are other odd issues with players getting supposed "hate resets" but still having hate - logging and still have hate upon return, and the super annoying Sleep mob in Dynamis, die, reraise, and mob goes right for you.

[Suiram]

Oh the example I was giving was for how the mob chooses targets when it's not using the hate list (because the hate list is empty) in which it did not seem to be based on proximity. (You've been using the term "hate list," it would seem, to mean just the order in which a mob will select its current target, but if you'll allow me here to use "target selection" for that procedure and "hate list" as the most common--but not exclusive--method of target selection based on who has generated the largest amount of TE at that point.) So the idea I guess is when there is no hate list and the mob is choosing from multiple targets (with nullhate) it would appear that proximity doesn't factor in (provided the player was at least within some minimum range to get nullhate in the first place).

What you are talking about is interesting though, too, which I think was the presumed way it worked, where the mob has to "look for you" so to speak to be removed during logout or zone, but it would be nice to see that completely ironed out.

[Elmer the Pointy]

Also, for those interested in PUP moves and how the automaton hate works... the research has been completed by a JP player who made a video about his findings.

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm2440476

I was going to make a video or audio recording to go along with the video since it's so long, but it didn't really work out. In the end, I decided to just make a long post detailing what exactly was going on in the video, and what he proved. I'll use timestamps to hopefully make it easy to follow along and get the most information out of the video.

00:00 - Here he shows the title card and then fades into a blurry shot of Hakutaku. What he's doing here is laying out the premise of the video. He wants to solo Hakutaku, but a lot of the problems one would run into involve enmity and hate management. For instance, the Automaton is going to pull hate and the master cannot generate enough hate.

---

00:43 - The screen switches to a Taru giving the /huh motion. Then some red-yellow text comes up saying "Hate? Enmity? What is that? Can you eat it?"
Hilarious.

---

00:58 - Now we have a Taru PUP behind a Goblin. The Taru readies himself and punches the Goblin, causing the monster to bitch about it and turn its attention towards the PUP. This demonstrates how performing some aggressive act against an enemy generates enmity and causes it to target you.

---

01:11 - At this point, an Automaton is added to the mix. Both the Master and the Automaton attack, each generating their own amounts of hate. The Master generates 300 units, while the Automaton generates 500 units. The Automaton's total is higher, and therefore the Goblin targets it.

---

01:28 - The video has now zoomed in on the puppet's hate and proceeds to explain the two different types.

---

01:36 - On the left in blue, is Cumulative Hate, which is lost by taking damage. On the right in red, is Volatile Hate, which decays over time at a rate of 60 units per second.

---

01:41 - The cap on hate is 10,000 units. This cap is on the grand total of both types together.

---

01:52 - OK, lots of text here.

• Two kinds of hate: Cumulative and Volatile. Cumulative is lost by taking damage, while Volatile decays at a rate of 60 units per second.[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• The player with the highest grand total of hate takes the attention of the monster.[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• Evading an attack does not decrease hate.[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• The cap on hate is 10,000 units.[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• The player who first attacks an enemy gets "First Touch." Think like the First Strike bonus in Street Fighter. If you strike first you get extra points, if you attack the monster first, you get a bonus 200 Cumulative Enmity and 900 Volatile Enmity.[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• Hate generated from damage is dependent on the enemy's max HP.[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• The minimum amount of Cumulative Hate you can have is 1.[/*:m:1v5smbjs]

---

02:29 - Title card for hate values associated with commonly used actions in battle.

---

02:34 - First chart, Warrior and Ninja abilities

• Provoke - 1 CE, 1800 VE[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• Berserk, Defender - 1 CE, 80 VE[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• Warcry - 1 CE, 300 VE (x party members affected)[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• Utsusemi - 1 CE, 300 VE[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• Elemental Jutsu - 80 CE, 240 VE[/*:m:1v5smbjs]

---

03:11 - Second chart, White Magic

• Protect, Shell, Bar-spells - 1 CE, 80 VE[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• Stoneskin, Blink, Aquaveil, Regen - 1 CE, 300 VE[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• Slow, Silence, Paralyze, Poison - 1 CE, 320 VE[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• Blind - 1 CE, 640 VE[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• Cure V - 400 CE, 0 VE[/*:m:1v5smbjs]

---

03:43 - Third chart, Sleeps

• Lullaby - 240 CE[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• Repose - 480 CE[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• Sleepga - 180 CE[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• Sleep - 320 CE, 240 VE[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• Sleep II - 480 CE, 480 VE[/*:m:1v5smbjs]

---

04:11 - Fourth chart

• Erase - 1 CE, 480 VE[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• Elegy - 100 CE, 240 VE[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• Dispel - 320 CE, 320 VE[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• Stun - 180 CE, 1280 VE[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• Flash - 180 CE, 1280 VE[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• Invincible - 1 CE, 7200 VE[/*:m:1v5smbjs]

---

04:40 - Fifth chart

• Evading - 0[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• Blink Absorb - 0[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• Utsusemi Absorb - -25 CE[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• Use item - 1 CE[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• Link a monster - 0[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• First Strike - 200 CE, 900 VE[/*:m:1v5smbjs]

---

05:12 - Title card for proving the floor for Cumulative Enmity is 1 unit.

---

05:18 - To start the test, both the Master and the Automaton are set to 0 units of enmity.

---

05:27 - The Master punches the Goblin, gaining a First Strike bonus of 200 CE and 900 VE. The + ? represents enmity generated from the actual damage he does, which isn't important.

---

05:37 - The Automaton has now cast an Enfeebling spell upon the Goblin, generating 1 CE and 340 VE.

---

05:48 - Time passes, and the red bars representing Volatile Enmity go down. This leaves us with the Master at 200+? CE and the Automaton at 1 CE.

---

05:52 - The Goblin now continues to hit the Master until his Cumulative Enmity decreases to the minimum possible level.

---

06:02 - If the minimum possible Cumulative Hate was 0, then the Master would lose the attention of the Goblin as it turned to attack the Automaton. However, the giant X that appears indicates that this does not happen, and therefore, the level of Cumulative Hate must bottom out at 1.

---

06:42 - A bunch of text reiterating what he just discovered. If the Master's Cumulative Hate dropped down to 0, the Goblin would have turned towards the Automaton. That did not happen, so it is concluded that the minimum amount is 1 unit.

In the case that multiple people have fallen to this minimum hate, the monster will most likely continue to target the last person to have taken hate.

---

07:19 - Title card for how much hate Maneuvers generate.

---

07:25 - The Master is set at 1 CE, and the Automaton at 2 CE. The Goblin is currently targeting the Automaton.

---

07:38 - The Master uses a Maneuver, generating a questionable amount of hate. In response, the Goblin targets the Master. Therefore, he must have generated at least 1 unit of CE.

---

07:57 - NEXT

---

07:58 - Now the Master is set at 1 CE, while the Automaton is boosted to 3 CE.

---

08:11 - The Master once again uses a Maneuver, but this time is unable to take the attention of the Goblin. Since he could not cause the Goblin to target him, he must have generated less than 2 units of Cumulative Enmity.

---

08:35 - Using a Maneuver generates 1 unit of Cumulative Enmity and 0 units of Volatile Enmity.

---

08:51 - Title card for how much hate Retrieve generates.

---

08:56 - Again, we have the Master set at 1 CE, and the Automaton at 2 CE.

---

09:09 - The Master uses Retrieve, generating some amount of Cumulative and Volatile Enmity. The Goblin targets the Master, and continues to do so. He must have generated at least one Cumulative Enmity unit since he is able to retain the Goblin's attention.

---

09:30 - NEXT

---

09:31 - Now the Automaton is boosted up to 3 CE, while the Master stays at 1 CE. Basically, the same test as before.

---

09:45 - The Master uses Retrieve, generates CE and VE, and is able to take the attention of the Goblin still. However, this time the Goblin turns back towards the Automaton after a moment. This means that after the Volatile Enmity decayed, there was not enough Cumulative Enmity left to hold the Goblin's attention. Therefore, the total CE on the Master must be 2 units.

---

10:07 - Using Retrieve generates 1 CE and 80 VE. The Volatile Enmity is guesstimated by the amount of time it took the Goblin to once again target the Automaton after the Master pulled hate with Retrieve.

---

10:25 - Title card for how much hate the Automaton's Cure V makes.

---

10:30 - This test is really simple. The Master and Automaton are put at 1 CE, the Maton casts Cure V, nothing happens... Cure V generates no hate. That's it, done.

---

11:00 - The Automaton's Cure V generates no hate. He also notes Cure IV generates not hate either.

---

11:12 - Title card for how much hate Flashbulb generates.

---

11:18 - For this test, the method is the same, but the roles are reversed. The Master is set at 2 CE, and the Automaton at 1 CE. Basically, the Automaton will now try to pull hate with its own abilities.

---

11:31 - The Automaton uses Flash, the Goblin turns to attack him, and now we know at least 1 CE has been generated as the Goblin continues to attack the Automaton indefinitely.

---

11:48 - NEXT

---

11:49 - Master is set to 3 CE, and the Automaton to 1 CE.

---

12:01 - Once again, the Automaton uses Flash, but is now unable to pull hate off of the Master. Therefore, the total amount of Cumulative Enmity on the Automaton must be 2 units.

---

12:19 - Flashbulb generates 1 CE and 0 VE.

---

12:29 - Title card for the effects of Stealth Screen.

---

12:34 - To begin this test, both the Master and Automaton are set to 0 Enmity.

---

12:45 - Using Bard songs, the Master is going to generate a set amount of Cumulative Enmity. You can see first he gets 440 CE and 900 VE, because of the First Strike bonus. He uses another song to get to 540 CE, and then a Maneuver to reach 541 CE. The amount of VE is unimportant and decays to 0.

---

13:02 - The Automaton casts Blind, which generates 1 CE and 640 VE. Using this in conjunction with Stealth Screen, he is able to put together a chart based on when Blind pulls hate and when it cannot.

---

13:15 - And here is the chart.

• Tan section on the left - These numbers are the amounts of Cumulative Enmity on the Master.[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• Top Blue - No Attachment[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• Top Red - With Attachment, and the four sections from left to right are No Maneuvers, 1 Water, 2 Water, and 3 Water.[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• Pink Circles - Able to pull hate[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• X's - Unable to pull hate[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• Numbers at bottom - Enmity minus[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• Number at far right - Master's Hate divided by Automaton's Hate[/*:m:1v5smbjs]

---

13:42 - Stealth Screen grants Enmity-15 when equipped, and each Maneuver grants another Enmity-5.

---

13:55 - Title card for the effects of Strobe.

---

14:00 - Basically, the same method as used before, but this time Slow and Provoke are being used.

---

14:15 - Another big chart.

• Tan section at left - Level of Cumulative Enmity the Master has[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• Top Blue - No Attachment[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• Top Red - Attachment Equipped[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• Top Red, Right section - 1, 2, and 3 Fire Maneuvers active[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• Pink Circles - Able to steal hate[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• X's - Unable to steal hate[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• Numbers at bottom - Amount of Enmity+[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• The left section is tested by having the Automaton cast Slow for 320 CE, while the right section is tested by having the Automaton use Provoke for 1800 VE.[/*:m:1v5smbjs]

---

14:39 - Strobe grants Enmity+5, and each Maneuver grants another Enmity+5.

---

14:53 - Roundup of hate generated by PUP actions.

---

14:58 - First chart

• Slow, Silence, Paralyze, Poison - 1 CE, 320 VE[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• Blind - 1 CE, 640 VE[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• Cure V, Cure IV - 0[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• Flashbulb - 1 CE, 0 VE[/*:m:1v5smbjs]

---

15:29 - Second chart

• Each Maneuver - 1 CE, 0 VE[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• Retrieve - 1 CE, ~80 VE[/*:m:1v5smbjs]
• Deploy, Activate, Deactivate - 0[/*:m:1v5smbjs]

---

16:00 - Here he begins to analyze whether one could solo Hakutaku. He dies in, like, 2 seconds, but super slo-mo's it out across 5 minutes 34 seconds. During the fight, he goes through the various pros and cons of each Head/Frame and subjob.

---

And that's about it for the video. Hopefully there's some good stuff in there that can be used for the enmity study. If you see any errors of have more questions about the video, please let me know.

[Kaeko]

Amazing stuff Elmer! Thanks!

The numbers were what I was mainly after, which it looks like you got.

We really had no way of getting any of the PUP data on our own so this was extremely helpful. I'll try updating all this later but I have to actually read up on how PUP works first haha.

[Ashira]

Elmer is officially insane. But it is much appreciated. :D

[Not Kuno]

Fantastic work Elmer. :elmer:

Also random question that may have been answered already: Does losing a Blink shadow have the same effect as losing an Utsu shadow? What about Zephyr mantle/blink band etc?

[Kaeko]

Only Utsu shadow loss causes enmity loss. Others are 0.

[Kaeko]

I've started compiling all the actions by Job as some have suggested. It takes awhile for some of them so I may need some time to get all 20 jobs up. Here's a sample...

http://kanican.livejournal.com/17795.html

Should make it easier for people to find the moves they want to look up as well as which are still missing.

[Amok]

Thanks for doing all that work.
Looking at the other protect(ra)s VE values, I think you swapped
the VE values for prot2 and prot-ra2. or maybe that's just a weird exception.

[Kaeko]

Thanks for doing all that work.
Looking at the other protect(ra)s VE values, I think you swapped
the VE values for prot2 and prot-ra2. or maybe that's just a weird exception.

Ah was a typo, thanks for correcting!

[eva00r]

YOU ARE FUCKING WIN KAEKO.

/salute

[Edrick]

Thank you so much for this, Kaeko. This will help me not to be googly eyed when sifting through that huge list.

[Kaeko]

Cleaned up things a ton...

http://kanican.livejournal.com/13848.html

This is the same URL as the old table so anyone that linked it would still get the correct link. The old list is still available under "Complete List" and includes all the contributors and things like that. The main table now sorts by job though for ease of use.

Also, I know the BLU table is missing 7 moves (just damage based ones though)... LJ has a html line limit and I can't fit it on there... Still trying to resolve this.

Any other layout or data suggestions are welcome still.

I'm also looking to see if I can put up the same tables in Japanese and possibly French and German as well. If anyone can direct me to a site with all the job moves in those languages that would help a ton.

[Maxxthepenguin]

I've still got a few questions about the whole thing that probably need more testing

1. If you affect an enemy outside of enmity gain range but within range of the target of an AoE spell, do you gain enmity? I assume yes, but it's hard to be completely sure.
2. What are the amounts of CE and VE gained for damage and curing and do certain spells/abilities have increased/decreased hate gain compared to the magnitude of effect? We all know that bash abilities give tons of hate and deal small amounts of damage, but is the amount of enmity just a standard amount plus damage or is it dependent on damage dealt? Are there more spells/abilities like Cure V in regards to enmity that we don't know about?
3. This is unlikely, but do enmity gear/merits affect the enmity cap?

Sorry if I ruined some future evening for you and your cohorts.

[Kaeko]

I've still got a few questions about the whole thing that probably need more testing

1. If you affect an enemy outside of enmity gain range but within range of the target of an AoE spell, do you gain enmity? I assume yes, but it's hard to be completely sure.
2. What are the amounts of CE and VE gained for damage and curing and do certain spells/abilities have increased/decreased hate gain compared to the magnitude of effect? We all know that bash abilities give tons of hate and deal small amounts of damage, but is the amount of enmity just a standard amount plus damage or is it dependent on damage dealt? Are there more spells/abilities like Cure V in regards to enmity that we don't know about?
3. This is unlikely, but do enmity gear/merits affect the enmity cap?

Sorry if I ruined some future evening for you and your cohorts.

1) If you affected the enemy with something then it will count towards the list. Range only matters when you deal with things affecting yourself or your allies on the hate list. If you somehow manage to touch the enemy from 25+ (say with AoE), it will count I'm almost positive. I can say this because of using Sleepga in the situation you decribe in dynamis etc. The way I would view this is that ALL hate determinations stem from the distance between the mob and the TARGET, not the caster. So if you target the enemy, the range stems from the enemy, which is obviously 0'.

2) There are certain moves that do damage that never change how much CE/VE they give. Shield Bash is an example of this; as is Cure V. Other notables are that Dia series is based on Damage formula, while Bio is based on a static amount 1/320 regardless of damage. You can test this on a LVL1 mob and watch Dia give an insane amount of hate for doing 2 damage, while Bio gives almost no hate for 15+ damage. The best way to think about it is how I've sorted thigns in the table now - if it gets a --D-- or --C-- label, it will follow a formula. If you receive a real number, then it is that number no matter what quantity damages or cures in practice.

3) Very interesting, I'll take a look at this. It's easy to test

[Suiram]

On the subjects of BLU testing and the --D-- and --C-- labeling, Hydro Shot is labeled with --D-- but according to the spell description has some sort of additional enmity reduction effect, which probably merits further investigation itself for that matter.

[Kaeko]

On the subjects of BLU testing and the --D-- and --C-- labeling, Hydro Shot is labeled with --D-- but according to the spell description has some sort of additional enmity reduction effect, which probably merits further investigation itself for that matter.

I may need help with the BLU moves. Every BLU effect I have is based on other BLUs in this thread like yourself. I'll note it though.

[Maxxthepenguin]

That reminds me of another thing to ask: Do things like Guillotine, Flat Blade, and the tons of BLU spells that are both significant physical damage and status effects add extra enmity based on the extra effect (IE Silence and Stun)

[Raithen]

In the same vein as Hydro Shot (reduces player's enmity), High Jump is also listed as --D--. This is obvious since the damage dealt by High Jump will determine the enmity added, but is it known how High Jump reduces enmity? I'd assume it's CE, but could be TE? I suppose same with Super Jump. I would imagine Super Jump would reduce CE (or TE?) to 1, whereas a successful Hide would reduce to 0? If I'm making some unfounded assumption, please correct.